Dartmoor Pony Society endorsing Eating them to save species.

Pages of comments and no one has pointed out they are not a species, they are a type. Species are horses & donkeys, not Dartmoors & Arabs.

Queenbee said:
I'm going to as a question, it's a genuine one and not one designed to provoke outrage, I suppose it's more than one question but they are closely linked.

Would it be such a bad thing if we just let the Dartmoor Hill Pony die out?
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Personally I wouldn't mind if the DHP did die out. They aren't true to a type and don't have any more genetic value than any other small pony.

Pure bread Dartmoors are, for me, different and I for one would be extremely sad to see them go.
 
bakewell said:

I also think for release onto the hills they should be ear tagged and non tagged adult ponies shot.
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Ear tagging isn't a permitted mutilation for equines - hence the reason Exmoor ponies returning to the moor after weaning/inspection/DNA verification/registration into the EPS studbook are still hot branded with their herd number and pony number. A large number of alternatives have been explored but there is nothing viable as yet, investigations are continuing.
 
exmoorponyprincess1 said:
Ear tagging isn't a permitted mutilation for equines - hence the reason Exmoor ponies returning to the moor after weaning/inspection/DNA verification/registration into the EPS studbook are still hot branded with their herd number and pony number. A large number of alternatives have been explored but there is nothing viable as yet, investigations are continuing.
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Theoretically, would it be if they were produced for meat and viewed in that way? ie destined to enter the food chain. (same as agricultural work horses can live in agricultural buildings). Not aware of the legislation around this as generally not the case in the uk. Or would they be more like farmed deer.

(Plus I have to say I don't think there's any difference in terms of cruelty or whatever between branding and ear tags, just looks less pretty)
 
That is a good point. I think the market is such a difficult one for small ponies even ones with excellent breeding especially semi feral ones which are not used to being handled. The registered M&M have the advantage of being able to be shown at big shows which help fuel the market yes they may be more expensive than a DHP pony but if the only selling point of these ponies is that they are cheap then there are plenty of other cheap mixed breed ponies about.

Reducing numbers so that there are not more ponies than there are suitable homes seems like a sensible option to me. Opening up a stud book and having a breed standard may help get the ponies recognition and preserve bloodlines and if they could get recognized as a M&M that could be shown in these classes this may increase their value.

If the farmers can't afford to keep the ponies they can't sell then they need to breed less ponies. If they really are such a big tourist draw for Dartmoor and are needed for conservation grazing then there should be some subsidy from tourist board or national park funds.

Queenbee said:
I'm going to as a question, it's a genuine one and not one designed to provoke outrage, I suppose it's more than one question but they are closely linked.

Would it be such a bad thing if we just let the Dartmoor Hill Pony die out? We live in a time of extreme equine overpopulation and overbreeding. No one wants a DHP, the only people that generally buy them are kill buyers or someone wanting to save ponies from the kill buyers. What is so special about them that people are fighting to find any kind of balance between reduction of numbers but having enough numbers to continue the "blood lines". The harsh reality is nothing, they serve no true purpose, no one really wants them, there is no market for them, sure they can make good kids ponies but so can many other ponies, they aren't even a true breed. What would be so wrong with bringing them down, castrating them all, selling what they can and allowing the rest back on the moors knowing they won't breed, selling more the following year and so on until the DHP is no more?

As Cortez said, there is no demand so why breed them. Why not accept it's an end to the DHP?
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paddy555 said:
in that case all 5 of mine belong in a can!!! Thankfully I was able to see further and realise what nice ponies they actually could be. How can you make the general statement that they are bad in constitution?
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I'm not surprised your five are crackers, they've not been interfered with growing up and have learnt how to be ponies and live in a herd before going to a sympathetic and experienced home. Most ponies in that situation will come good. What do you do with your five?

None the less horse breeders need to consider if their breeding plans are maximising the chances of the animals they produce having confo that will help them to live a long, sound life doing a job they are valued for.
 
Spot_the_Risk said:
Interesting that people are mentioning that horses are abandoned onto Dartmoor, I've never heard of this, in passing or from any farmers that I know keep ponies.
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I'm afraid it does happen on dartmoor as well as Bodmin moor, and it's not even just native types that get dumped. Two very TB type horses were taken off a lorry, head collars off and let loose on the moor in the spring. It was broad daylight and there were witnesses but by the time someone realised what was going on it was too late to stop and the people drove away. Horses were rounded up a couple of days later with the help of a trekking centre.
 
undergroundoli said:
Pages of comments and no one has pointed out they are not a species, they are a type. Species are horses & donkeys, not Dartmoors & Arabs.

Personally I wouldn't mind if the DHP did die out. They aren't true to a type and don't have any more genetic value than any other small pony.

Pure bread Dartmoors are, for me, different and I for one would be extremely sad to see them go.
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^^^^undergroundoli... Couldn't resist, I know I'm being pedantic but I did point out they are not a breed (sorry, as I said I couldn't resist :p)


I do agree, pure breeds are another thing, In need of responsible breeding none the less but something in need of protecting. In my opinion, if equids are needed to graze on dartmoor let it be dartmoor ponies. Whoever said they couldn't survive is well, I'm not sure what they are, but that statement certainly isn't true! The hardiest pony I've known was a sherberton Dartmoor Pony, Bred by Diana Coaker before she died, she was an amazing and hugely respected breeder of DP, she bred pure class and her ponies did live on the moors, even at the age of eighty she was going up to take part in the drifts. As for responsible breeding, the coakers have completely stopped breeding this year, because they state there isn't the market.... That is responsible, that's what should be done.
 
I have to say, that in recent days I have been chuckling to myself. But for the fact that the supermarkets were found to be selling dodgy horse meat burgers, I'm not sure we would be having this conversation. Well, I'm sure it would have happened, but not so soon! First we have Princess Anne, closely affiliate lay with WHW, and now, DHPS.

In answer to a few of the things I've read that I have not covered.

Why should we even consider converting them into a breed, they serve no purpose, sure they eat gorse but so do other horses. Sure they make good ponies, but no more than a number of other breeds. In a different time, when perhaps there were no population crisis and as a result welfare crisis... It may well be something for consideration, but the fact is, no one even has the money to conduct proper husbandry to them, no one wants them apart from the kill buyers and the pity party and we are in a crisis.

An interesting thing to note is that year on year cr ap is being churned out in terms of DHP, now we all know they can't afford to castrate them all, so logic says that they will bring them down, select the worst to be castrated and the best to go back and breed... Why the hell is this not showing in the breed then? Moreover, if you have 100 mares, and 50 stallions. 100 mares give or take will have a foal, if you have 100 mares, 1 stallion.... 100 mares give or take will still have a foal. It's not rocket science. Cease breeding, it doesn't matter how lovely they are, how good a pony they will become, they are an excess that can not be accommodated in this current equestrian situation.

I wish it weren't so, as someone said, it would be lovely to have less, and perhaps then we would value their lives more, that's an awful thing to say, but it's so relevant. No one, wants to be screaming "thin the market down, kill a few!!!" But WE have caused this, every one of us. I've seen people who are outspoken against breeding in this market, breeding their own horse. I've seen people standing by and not stating their views. People perpetuating the market (a market that isn't even there!!!) left right and centre. I've said it before, as horse lovers, horse owners, horse breeders and dealers we need to seriously pull up our socks, make some really hard decisions, generate a movement which yes, should in effect be a cull. Have better (or indeed some) regulation of the breeding industry, there is nothing wrong with responsible breeding from professionals at this time and I believe it is as necesarry to keep the market flowing as is stopping irresponsible breeding. But there is also a fact to consider, What is responsible Vs irresponsible breeding? To my mind quality always used to be synonymous with responsible breeding, however, I know of five top quality and highly respected breeders that have not bred this year and probably won't next year... The reason, the market is flooded and nothing is selling, this doesn't even mean that they are competing against £50 dross, they are competing against the quality ponies that have become redundant in their own homes and are being sold for £100 because they are competing with the £50 dross... So much needs to change!

For a while, put a different value on life, the value that no life at all is better than a bad life. And think outside the box, if horse meat is a valid way of effecting some control over this crisis, then as much as it pains me to say it, but so be it.

Only then can we truly return to a position whereby we can say we truly valued our horses. It's not just about placing a value on one horses life. Now it's about placing a value on all the horses in the uk. If we value them, we all need to prove that by stopping and reversing this crisis we can only do that by changing ourselves, our practices and by not just speaking out but by acting, even if a cull or horse meat makes us feel sick. We have no one to blame but ourselves for what is happening to horses today.



^^^urgh, sorry hugely emotive, but something I feel very strongly about! jumping off soapbox now^^^
 
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So very well said Queenbee, thank you. If only people would listen and take heed.

I too know several decent breeders that won't be breeding for the next couple of years but it's not those people we need to worry about, it's the ones that think anything with a uterus and a dick, providing it's breathing will be a good thing for their pocket but aren't likely to take the responsible way at the end when they can't sell them and leave others to clear up their mess.

PS:, I've totally hung up my breeding boots now too; all of the girls have gone and I have just two youngsters (geldings) to sell plus have just bought a Dales gelding to ride when he's older. It's been hard these last few years to find the right homes for the youngsters, I don't want the responsibility of doing that any longer now.
 
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Cortez said:
Or....they could just be responsible breeders and manage the breed properly. Just a thought.
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Couldn't agree more - and applying this to all breeders. For every well bred foal with good conformation from horses bred in this way, there must be a dozen who are unsound, in pain and have no prospect of a decent future in a good home. If they're not worth anything, why keep breeding them relentlessly? Breeders need to be properly regulated, monitored and preferably licensed.

On the subject of eating horses, I feel that as a meat eater I really can't be precious about horses being eaten - I eat cows, pigs, lambs, chickens, so why not horses?
 
bakewell said:
Theoretically, would it be if they were produced for meat and viewed in that way? ie destined to enter the food chain. (same as agricultural work horses can live in agricultural buildings). Not aware of the legislation around this as generally not the case in the uk. Or would they be more like farmed deer.

(Plus I have to say I don't think there's any difference in terms of cruelty or whatever between branding and ear tags, just looks less pretty)
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Don't know whether it would be changed if the "use" of equines were to be changed - and not going to comment at all re cruelty for fear of opening another can of worms on this thread!

Must admit, I am a huge supporter of our pure bred native breeds and given they are part of our heritage, I think that they should be prioritised when it comes to breeding responsibly in the current climate. Badly conformed ponies bred irresponsibly do nothing to support the growth of the equine market in the UK IMHO.
 
In my view it would be an awful shame to let the hill pony die out . I cannot understand how people don't see the value in us having semi ferral herds of horses here in the uk!!! Not only are they essential for the conservation of dartmoor but extreemlu valuable in terms of learning about equine behaviour.

There is nothing pure about the dartmoor pony. They are a concept not a breed. They are a mic of welsh, Arab, hill pony and exmoor pony. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are of any greater importance than a hill pony.
 
happyhacking:) said:
In my view it would be an awful shame to let the hill pony die out . I cannot understand how people don't see the value in us having semi ferral herds of horses here in the uk!!!
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There's an awful lot of semi feral herds of horses, many of them coloured, grazing by the sides of motorways. And equally herds of slightly less feral versions of the same in most rehoming centers seeking out companion homes as their temperaments and conformation dictate they are unsuitable for anything else. Frankly I think the people who do care about horses are a little over the novelty of an assorted herd roaming free. It's not like they're tarpan after all.

happyhacking:) said:
Not only are they essential for the conservation of dartmoor but extreemlu valuable in terms of learning about equine behaviour.
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Conservation value is clear, but the equine behaviour could be equally demonstrated by ponies with greater value, either in preserving rare breeds (genetics) or being financially viable/ desirable to people.

happyhacking:) said:
There is nothing pure about the dartmoor pony. They are a concept not a breed. They are a mic of welsh, Arab, hill pony and exmoor pony. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are of any greater importance than a hill pony.
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Most breeds are formed out of, influenced by or improved through other breeds. They then develop a consistency, say height, or build. Which the pure bred dartmoor has, albeit to a lesser degree than say, a fell.
However, whilst I am all for genetic diversity, some genetics (say the parrot mouth mentioned earlier) really shouldn't be passed on to future generations.
It might be appropriate to say that the DHP is devaluing the pure bred dartmoor through understandable public confusion. Likewise the dartmoor tend to be conformationally sound, with considered breeding to improve desirable characteristics... making for an end product that might sell consistently, at some point in the future.
I understand that it's emotive but when there isn't the money to castrate, breeding is indiscriminate (and continued in the face of reason), there's an excess of stock that no-one wants to buy and which probably costs more in annual wormer than it's worth at market. That's going to be a situation that eventually leads to serious welfare implications. The best of those implications may well be a bullet but people can take a long time to come round to that and horses may suffer in the meantime.
 
happyhacking:) said:
Then you should support the hill ponies!!!
They are our native ponies. And from the heritage point of view they are the living remains of the mines and early industry on the moor.
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Weren't the majority of pit ponies Shetlands or Shetland crosses to be small enough to go down the mines? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I love the the Dartmoor Pony, particularly the more traditional version as some of the ones currently in the show ring, in my opinion, can look a bit too fine for my particular liking - but each to their own. At the end of the day, we all love horses but if we all loved the exact same type then the world would be a very boring place! However - and again this is only my opinion - if a particular type is not currently valued by the market but is continued to be bred irresponsibly with no real breeding plan or clear view as to the future of the foals, then I am afraid I would stand by what many others have already said on this thread.
 
happyhacking:) said:
In my view it would be an awful shame to let the hill pony die out . I cannot understand how people don't see the value in us having semi ferral herds of horses here in the uk!!! Not only are they essential for the conservation of dartmoor but extreemlu valuable in terms of learning about equine behaviour.

There is nothing pure about the dartmoor pony. They are a concept not a breed. They are a mic of welsh, Arab, hill pony and exmoor pony. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are of any greater importance than a hill pony.
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I'm not questioning the validity of having a semi feral herd on dartmoor, great for ecology and tourism. My view is that they shouldn't be substandard. Yes there are some hill ponies with great temperaments but that's not exclusive to the hill pony.

My view would be to cull/geld to reduce numbers of the poor quality stock as theres no market for them. Slowly build up the quality so you have ponies that are hardy for the moor plus are conformationaly (a word?) sound. Control breeding so it's in line with demand and quality remains. It's been done with other native ponies so it's not impossible, just requires recognition of the dire situation the hill ponies are in and a plan to improve rather than blindly carry on.

I was with a dartmoor farming family today and they have a small set of ponies on the moor. The old man loves his ponies and can tell you all about their breeding but he just can't see what they've become. He showed me some pictures of his old ponies and although not what you'd call dartmoor ponies they looked quality in the pictures, good bone, sloping shoulders, good strong hind quarters. His current crop look nothing like this. Luckily his son is taking over and he can see the issue and wants to change, he won't cull what they have but he's gelded their coloured stallion and kept the mares on the farm over the summer to try and stop anymore foals. It's a small start but it is progress.
 
I stand to be corrected but I don't think pit ponies were used in Cornish mines. I understood the different types developed after restrictions were put in place to prevent cattle roaming. When they couldn't access lower levels, only the small Shetland types could survive winter conditions high up on the moor.
 
millikins said:
I stand to be corrected but I don't think pit ponies were used in Cornish mines.
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I'm pretty sure you are right about ponies in Cornish mines, certainly in the 19th century. I'm a mine explorer in my other life. I've heard about and seen lots of interesting ways of getting tin out the Cornish mines I've never seen any evidence of ponies being used and a lot of mines ponies couldn't have been used in.
 
Queenbee said:
^^^^undergroundoli... Couldn't resist, I know I'm being pedantic but I did point out they are not a breed (sorry, as I said I couldn't resist :p)
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I know you did, but I was referring to the thread title, which claims they are a species! :P

Queenbee said:
But there is also a fact to consider, What is responsible Vs irresponsible breeding? To my mind quality always used to be synonymous with responsible breeding, however, I know of five top quality and highly respected breeders that have not bred this year and probably won't next year... The reason, the market is flooded and nothing is selling, this doesn't even mean that they are competing against £50 dross, they are competing against the quality ponies that have become redundant in their own homes and are being sold for £100 because they are competing with the £50 dross... So much needs to change!
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The thing is though, what if responsible breeders stop and people who produce rubbish continue to breed? What if by the time the market picks up the quality mares produced by responsible breeders before the market folded are too old to put in foal?
 
undergroundoli said:
I'm a mine explorer in my other life. I've heard about and seen lots of interesting ways of getting tin out the Cornish mines I've never seen any evidence of ponies being used and a lot of mines ponies couldn't have been used in.
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There are some interesting jobs that HHO'ers do, guess the clue is your username:)
 
Whilst not used as standard, there is history of pit ponies being used in Cornwall:

"Levant used ‘pit ponies’ (ponies that were worked and stabled underground) in 1893 on the mile-long 278-fathom (508 metres) main tramming level out under the sea, the only Cornish mine to do so in the 19th century (Polhigey in Wendron and East Pool & Agar in Pool did so in the 20th century)."
 
I don't see the problem. Rare breed pigs have been saved from extinction by promoting their meat. If breeders got a decent price from the butcher if welfare standards were met the issue with lots of unwanted colts would begin to ease. We are far to silly and sentimental about eating horse meat in the UK.
 
Queenbee said:
Whilst not used as standard, there is history of pit ponies being used in Cornwall:

"Levant used ‘pit ponies’ (ponies that were worked and stabled underground) in 1893 on the mile-long 278-fathom (508 metres) main tramming level out under the sea, the only Cornish mine to do so in the 19th century (Polhigey in Wendron and East Pool & Agar in Pool did so in the 20th century)."
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Thanks for this QB, you've made my nerdy little day :) What have you pulled this quote from?

Depending on what was being extracted and the geology of the area mines used large ponies and horses as well as or instead of Shetlands. Stone mines and slate caverns in particular are huge and used heavy horses.

There were still a few pit ponies under South Wales in the late 90s and I wouldn't be surprised to learn of a colliery that was still scraping along with a couple of Section C types.
 
undergroundoli said:
Thanks for this QB, you've made my nerdy little day :) What have you pulled this quote from?

Depending on what was being extracted and the geology of the area mines used large ponies and horses as well as or instead of Shetlands. Stone mines and slate caverns in particular are huge and used heavy horses.

There were still a few pit ponies under South Wales in the late 90s and I wouldn't be surprised to learn of a colliery that was still scraping along with a couple of Section C types.
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I will find you the document, it's in the history of the Levant mine... Bare with me...
 
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