***Daughter and Dolly - hay and outlines!!!***

R

redmone

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Hi everyone,

This is more of a question thread than an update thread and boy do I have some treats on offer in return for comments and advice!

I have caramel rabbit chocolates on offer (nom nom nom!!! please take some before I eat them all!!!), shapers "orange stimulation drink" - as a penance for the rabbits, and also a pick and mix :D:D:D

OK. Dolly and the quest for something resembling an outline! Daughter has done a lot of dressage (recently came 3rd out of 171 entrants in the Interdressage junior annual league - how good is that!!!!) and can generally do a really nice accurate test. HOWEVER. She constantly gets marked down for Dolly's lack of outline. Normal comments are "needs to soften into a rounder shape" and "nose poking".

I've got to say, I've got to the point where I don't care too much about this outline business! I shouldn't say that, I know, but I think that if judges are that obsessed with a pony's head being tucked down then they are encouraging the use of all sorts of nasty gadgets and we won't be part of that. It's ok for adults who can be taught "feel" and work naturally to a point to get the horse working correctly, but kids? I think it's too tempting for parents to use gadgets to achieve the desired look without the pony working correctly at all.

Does that make sense? I'm rambbling, I know...it's the sugar....

Anyway, onto part 2 of the problem.

A few may know that Dolly recently broke out into hives. All up her face, neck, chest and belly. Long story short, it was the haylage. The very kind yard owner has swopped her onto hay for me, and hey presto, lumps gone. :D

However, hay is fed from nets (haylage from the floor or a haybar) and I've heard that any work we're doing to improve Dolly's head position, including daughter's schooling and also occasionally using a bungee (which I know, above I said about gadgets, but I've been advised that a bungee is not restrictive and it doesn't seem to be) will be undone by Dolly now having her head up and feeding from a haynet.

****big sigh****

rock and a hard place? chicken or the easter egg??

Are we really undoing all the hard work daughter is doing? I truely now think she is developing a "feel" as I can see a difference when she is trying for a better head position and when she is not. Also she's working really hard on transitions - we play traffic lights A LOT!!!!! :rolleyes: And that seems to be getting Dolly listening and responding to her. But if the nets are going to start building muscle up in the wrong place......arrrghhh!!!!!

My advice the other night to daughter was....."oh just go out and jump over things then"....:cool::eek::D

Sorry if that sounds a bit daft, but I care more about Dolly not having lumps than I do her being in a good outline.

Here's some photos for your perusal.....

Dolly as she normally is....

528695_3042041893668_638227574_n.jpg


Dolly as daughter is trying to make her....

santadolly.jpg


Dolly with her haynet...;)

slimmerdolly_zpsfe5dcf5a.jpg


(ps hasn't the hay helped her lose weight!!!)

Dolly jumping over things.... :D

jumping.jpg



Any thoughts would be really appreciated! But hurry up....the chocolate bunnies are going fast.... :D:D:D

Thanks everyone!

RM x x x
 
God, I love that pony!!!!

So, no. 1 outline - don't worry about it. Daughter will develop feel through her lessons, and the last thing that should happen is that it becomes a hang up for her, and pony.

No. 2 Hay - again don't worry about it. That little darling little pony has plenty of 'correct' neck muscle - and the haynet is not too high so shouldn't cause an issue. I've also never, ever seen a haynet cause an issue with a neck if the horse is worked correctly.

And finally,

I WANT THAT PONY!
 
can't see pics at work, but all sounds good!

i personally don't think that eating from a haynet is going to have a tremendously detrimental effect. yes, it's more natural to eat from floor etc....... but if daughter is trying to work pony correctly, (and I think you're right, much more important to have pony listening and doing accurate test that in an 'outline' which more often than not at lower levels if 'false' anyway - i.e horse is pulled into it rather than working through) then you'll build up more muscle correctly working than she'll undone eating some hay!

keep doing what you're doing and it'll come!!
 
amymay said:
God, I love that pony!!!!

So, no. 1 outline - don't worry about it. Daughter will develop feel through her lessons, and the last thing that should happen is that it becomes a hang up for her, and pony.

No. 2 Hay - again don't worry about it. That little darling little pony has plenty of 'correct' neck muscle - and the haynet is not too high so shouldn't cause an issue. I've also never, ever seen a haynet cause an issue with a neck if the horse is worked correctly.

And finally,

I WANT THAT PONY!
Click to expand...

Aww Amymay, I <3 you!!!

I know I shouldnt' post on hear just to be told what I want to hear, but thank you! I did need to hear that!!! :D

The obsession with outlines drives me mad. I recently saw (good choice of word there....) a child sawing away at a pony's mouth just to get the poor thing's head down. The pony had a naturally good shaped head and neck and I'm sure would have had no problem in the right hands....but god it made me cringe watching. For some kids, it's like the be all and end all.

Thanks loads...have some chocolate bunnies!! :D

Spangie said:
can't see pics at work, but all sounds good!

i personally don't think that eating from a haynet is going to have a tremendously detrimental effect. yes, it's more natural to eat from floor etc....... but if daughter is trying to work pony correctly, (and I think you're right, much more important to have pony listening and doing accurate test that in an 'outline' which more often than not at lower levels if 'false' anyway - i.e horse is pulled into it rather than working through) then you'll build up more muscle correctly working than she'll undone eating some hay!

keep doing what you're doing and it'll come!!
Click to expand...

Thank you! Again, just what I was hoping to hear.

:D
 
just a quick suggestion - put the ring for the haynet lower down as she is using the wrong muscles in her neck to eat hay. so any work that you are doing will become undone. :)
 
mole said:
just a quick suggestion - put the ring for the haynet lower down as she is using the wrong muscles in her neck to eat hay. so any work that you are doing will become undone. :)
Click to expand...

Poop. Not what I was hoping to hear :(

Can't put the ring lower down, as it's not our wall, or ring.

:(
 
redmone said:
The obsession with outlines drives me mad. I recently saw (good choice of word there....) a child sawing away at a pony's mouth just to get the poor thing's head down. The pony had a naturally good shaped head and neck and I'm sure would have had no problem in the right hands....but god it made me cringe watching. For some kids, it's like the be all and end all.
Click to expand...

It maddening. If a child is taught to ride correctly (anyone for that matter) they'll start to get that 'feel' etc. naturally.


*munches happily on chocolate bunnies, nom nom*
 
Will they let you either lower the ring or install a haybar? We bought our own haybar and installed it with YO's permission.
 
amymay said:
It maddening. If a child is taught to ride correctly (anyone for that matter) they'll start to get that 'feel' etc. naturally.


*munches happily on chocolate bunnies, nom nom*
Click to expand...

:D the pick and mix is nearly gone :o

Daughter has a couple of really good instructors, and I can really see the difference it's made. At first she had no feel at all, but now I can see that when she tries she can get results, but only once Dolly has really warmed up and is listening to her.

As I said, I'm tempted to just let her jump her socks off! BUT daughter does also like her dressage!

:)
 
Take that pony eventing :p

I wouldn't worry about it. Don't know how old your daughter is but when mine was 11 we swapped her 13.1 (known as Bobby B*st*rd) for a 14.2 bog cob. He was very strong, very young but a saint. He never worked properly over his back-he just found it difficult and she didn't have the skills/feel to achieve it. That said, he was very rhythmical, straight and accurate in his transitions so they always did ok in PC/RC dressage without any sawing; clamping him into side reins etc. My god they had fun together

She then got into eventing and he was a star. Jumped the novice course at Stilemans - double clear! Won loads 'despite' never being in a perfect outline.

Daughter now 22 with 36" inside leg; loads of feel and can get a nice tune out of anything :rolleyes:

In a roundabout way - you are right! Let them have fun, they'll do fine and above all stop stressing ;)
 
Has she moved stable then since swapping from haylage to hay? It could have been something in the stable she was alergic to as well as/ in addition to the haylage.

I'd second getting a hay bar - I'm one for anything that makes life a little easier on the ponies - bought ones are quite expensive so either look out for a second hand one or there are loads of DIY options on various threads on here - I have a home made on big enough to get all my boys hay in without him pulling it out to wee on!
 
Kat said:
Will they let you either lower the ring or install a haybar? We bought our own haybar and installed it with YO's permission.
Click to expand...

Hi Kat!

I'm not sure the haybar would work (yes, they most likely would let us install one) as I thought (and this may be me being stupid) that hay was put in haynets as it can be soaked to avoid ponies getting a cough? That's just my understanding....perhaps I'm wrong.

They might let us lower the ring (OH could do it definately) but would that then pose a risk of getting feet caught?

If hay can be given dry, then perhaps it'd be ok on the floor....???

RM
 
If she was my daughter I would send her to a byrds training day .. Get her on the BD young riders training programme ..and aim for young riders team ..as I think this little lady is brill ..(pony also lovely) :D
 
amymay said:
God, I love that pony!!!!

So, no. 1 outline - don't worry about it. Daughter will develop feel through her lessons, and the last thing that should happen is that it becomes a hang up for her, and pony.

No. 2 Hay - again don't worry about it. That little darling little pony has plenty of 'correct' neck muscle - and the haynet is not too high so shouldn't cause an issue. I've also never, ever seen a haynet cause an issue with a neck if the horse is worked correctly.

And finally,

I WANT THAT PONY!
Click to expand...



^^^^ that and AmyMay....I'll fight you for her!!!
 
Polos Mum said:
Has she moved stable then since swapping from haylage to hay? It could have been something in the stable she was alergic to as well as/ in addition to the haylage.

I'd second getting a hay bar - I'm one for anything that makes life a little easier on the ponies - bought ones are quite expensive so either look out for a second hand one or there are loads of DIY options on various threads on here - I have a home made on big enough to get all my boys hay in without him pulling it out to wee on!
Click to expand...

Nope, same stable she's been in for over 2 years.

I just thought the nets were because hay is damp.....

:confused:
 
No, the hay will be in a net because it's finer and lighter than haylage - so more liable to be wasted if fed on the floor (due to getting spread around stable more easily etc.).

Seriously - don't worry about it. That pony looks in fantastic nick - and what you don't know, you're clearly picking up very, very quickly.

We could all take note, quite frankly!
 
OutWHAT???

Kids should be bombing round on ponies, doing the bending race and jumping old ladies shopping bags in the park. Their ponies should be hairy little oiks who drop their shoulders once in a while to teach the child how to roll properly in the event of a fall.

Outline :eek::eek:

TBH Outline was something I never heard of until my twenties (I'm showing my age).

I don't like hay nets (prefer to feed from the floor), but only because of the danger they pose.

Sometimes you can get wrapped up in what others expect from a child and pony, and forget about the FUN they're meant to be having. At this age it's about learning to bond and make friends.

If you want outline then that will come with time and patience and experience. It's not something that is felt naturally to a child. You can, of course force the issue, but that's a whole other thread.

I'll have a caramel bunny :D
 
If you can put hay on the floor, then that would solve the problem. He is a cracking pony and the only thing he might struggle with is the fact that he has qquite a short chunky neck, so it will be more difficult for him maintain the dreaded "outline" than a pony with a lomnger, slimmer neck.

Personally, I think too much attention is paid to the front end and not enough to the engine house i.e. the back end. Once he is pushing through from his back end the front should come naturally. Your daughter is only young and as she gets more experience she will find it easier.

Well done at being third!
 
If you can't move the ring down just buy one of the big tub trugs and put her hay in that if your worried. I don't think it makes that much difference if they are working correctly but if dolly struggles it may just make it a bit easier for her.

I'm in two minds about the outline thing, in some ways I can see that mini rm is now ready to start asking dolly to work more through but it mustn't become the only thing she's focused on and it must never be head looking pretty over pony going forwards. On the other hand if she's having fun without having dolly working that way then it doesn't really matter, there will come a time in a few years when the 'thing' is to have your pony in an outline no matter what the back end is doing and I'd be tempted not to take the focus off her just having fun with dolly before it becomes the in thing.

It's up to you really if mini rm wants to work on it then don't stop her but if she's not that fussed then I wouldn't worry about it.
 
Sorry, I'll reply a little more fully now I'm on the PC.

Don't worry too much about the dressage comments about outline, it is correct that the comments are made, and it should be possible for a child to learn how to acheive an outline without fiddling, sawing or using gadgets. The wording is normally something like "needs to come through from behind more to acheive a more consistent outline" or something like that, and judges should also penalise a horse that is "behind the bit". Saying "needs to come through more from behind" is spot on as that is how the outline is acheived without the use of force or gadgets. If you ride lots of transitions and turns etc to active the hind legs and ride from leg to hand the horse will drop into an outline without the need for force or fiddling.

Using a haynet will not prevent dolly from doing this, but if you can you may as well make things as easy for her and Daughter as possible. So if you can feed from the floor or from a haybar type manger then that will help Dolly to build the right muscles rather than the wrong ones. If not a low haynet is better than a high one, as long as it isn't low enough to cause an accident. But don't stress about it, having a haynet rather than a haybar is probably the equivalent of us trying to do ballet or riding or gymnastics that requires good posture and equal strength and tone in both sides of the body when we spend most of our day behind a desk or driving a car in a less than ideal posture, it makes it a bit harder but not impossible.

I'd talk to YM about what you can do. If she was fed haylage from the floor I'm not sure why she can't have hay from the floor the same. But I would have thought that the YM would be amendable to you fitting a haybar if you pay for it yourself and make good any damage if/when you remove it. If not then what people on our yard do if the tie rings are too high for haynets is they put a strap or rope on the ring and tie the net to that, so it is lower. An old stirrup leather or neck strap works well and will break in an accident, I've used twine but it only lasts a few weeks before you need more, others use more substantial rope or webbing (like an old rug strap) but I worry about the horse getting caught on things that don't break.
 
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