DDFT in the hoof

[horses99]

My lovely boy just turned 9 sadly diagnosed through MRI that he has a large lesion from insertion to pastern on his DDFT and swelling/ fluid of the bursa. Due to location can’t operate and treatment options are poor outcome. Vet recommended 3 month wedges then 9 months rest revisit but has said his prognosis is poor with likely no jumping or eventing again and likely best is hacking. Has anyone else had DDFT in the HOOF (leg is v.different) and can share outcomes? I’m absolutely heartbroken and can’t believe after owning him a year his carrer is over.

 

[SOS]

Had very similar but horse was only 1/10 lame on a circle. Had torn a large amount of DDFT in foot. Did 2 months box rest, one complete, one hand walking, 2 months ‘barn rest’ (stable sized paddock wasn’t suitable at that time of year), 3 months in a flat field and 15 months on a steep rough hill turned out. Was sound from when first turned out. Has stayed sound for almost a year now hacking in this time his loaner bought him. New owner has started schooling, low level dressage and small jumps despite me selling as a hack only. Seems sound enough at the moment but will likely re injure unless kept very low level.

ETA: diagnosed by MRI and didn’t opt to rescan after a year as insurance was maxed out and if the horse didn’t stand up to work then the outcome would of been the same regardless of MRI results.

 

[ycbm]

This place has treated dozens of horses with that injury, many after trying and failing at the route your vet is suggesting. Most return to full work.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

Your best chance of a recovery is a barefoot rehab. I have done several myself, you don't necessarily need to send him away, but it is the easiest option. Plenty of others on the forum have done them too, and if you take the tough course of ignoring your vet's advice, we'll all hold your hand along the way.
.

 

[horses99]

How did it work for you? I’ve heard of it and my farrier/ vet said ‘don’t waste your money’ they sell dreams etc I’ve heard of it and considered the idea but unsure as to if I’d be just clutching at straws

 

[Bearsmum]

Sorry, but yes, same issue same age & no he never came sound, despite rest & rehab, I've kept him ever since as a very expensive pet; he's 'footy' in the field in very dry weather, but otherwise happy & looks good for his age- 25

 

[Meowy Catkin]

How did it work for you? I’ve heard of it and my farrier/ vet said ‘don’t waste your money’ they sell dreams etc I’ve heard of it and considered the idea but unsure as to if I’d be just clutching at straws

I think saying they sell dreams is a bit harsh.

85% returning to full work
15% returning to light work

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2015/01/rehab-results-and-research-2015-update.html

 

[deicinmerlyn]

Yes and successfully treated barefoot after considering all the other options. Been sound for years. TB diagnosed aged 9 yrs

 

[ycbm]

How did it work for you? I’ve heard of it and my farrier/ vet said ‘don’t waste your money’ they sell dreams etc I’ve heard of it and considered the idea but unsure as to if I’d be just clutching at straws

Your farrier and vet are closed minded idiots. Barefoot rehabs have a much higher success rate than any conventional treatment.

My own barefoot rehabs:

Horse one came sound and events.

Horse two was saved from a last appointment with the vet, came sound and did a bit of everything, including hunt.

Horse three came sound and hunted.

Horse four came sound and returned to full work.

I know personally of only one failure and that had a bone spur on the navicular.

 

[irishdraft]

I feel your pain I have a horse with the same injury vet thinks although I haven't had an mri . He has been lame for 7 months with no change I opted not to have remedial shoes and took shoes off for 3 months but he became very lame with abcesses so put shoes on again . I did contact rockley farm several times but never received an answer which made me suspect they thought he would not come right . However I am going to try the barefoot rehab myself although my farrier is against it and vet thinks what ever is do he will never come right . I am lucky he is at home and is quite happy does not seem lame in field or at walk so I will give it a go. I wouldn't like to give you false hope tho I think horses with this type of injury often do not return to work.

 

[ycbm]

I did contact rockley farm several times but never received an answer which made me suspect they thought he would not come right

Nic would not do that. I know her very well. If she didn't want to take your horse she would say so. Are you sure you had the right contact details?
.

 

[ester]

I contacted Nic for an opinion only, no plans ever to send the horse there but at the time they were 'fairly' local to me and it might have been an option way down the line. She was very helpful, wasn't evangelical about the fact that he might be having bar shoes on (said they could always come off again) and recommended me a trimmer nearby.

Having seen a few post rockley rehabs not all of them are amazing when they get home away from the 'perfect' set up but I do think it is most's best chance of as sound as they will get.

 

[sbloom]

How did it work for you? I’ve heard of it and my farrier/ vet said ‘don’t waste your money’ they sell dreams etc I’ve heard of it and considered the idea but unsure as to if I’d be just clutching at straws

Your vet needs a head wobble, I would definitely not put wedges on and would definitely consider barefoot the likely best option. Lots to be learned from Rockley and there are other track system livery yards that offer a slightly more basic and probably slower rehab.

Expecting long term hoof health from wedges and remedial farriery is clutching at straws far more IMO. It's a band aid that buys you more time.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That is the injury they suspect Amber has. I looked into Rockley Farm as I am not closed minded at all and am usually barefoot. But having done a search on outcomes, I could not find any evidence to support their claims such a a case series or randomised trial. They seemed to be conducting a case series with a vet at one point but the fact they never published suggests to me that the data - once it was properly evaluated for confounding variables etc - was not compelling. For one thing fro their blog it appears they accept horses without an MRI and count them in their success rates. Many of those horses may have recovered anyway as they were just not that badly injured in the first place.

I am sure they offer a good rehab option and are honest and genuine in what they do but personally if I am going to ignore my vet/farrier there needs to be some research data convincing me that was a good idea. And as far as I can tell, there isn't. If there is any research I would be more than happy to read it and reconsider my options.

Good luck with whatever you decide. It's horrible situation to be in.

 

[ycbm]

AE i understand the desire to see proper research, but do you know that there is no research to prove the efficacy of the conventional approach that vets are prescribing?

There was a Rockley research project some years back with a professor at Leahurst which was documenting phenomenal results compared with standard treatments.

Strangely, it was never published. Something to do with how many expensive machines will be lying idle and injections of very expensive drugs won't be needed, if barefoot rehabs are clinically proven to work, is my guess.

Far from taking horses which aren't that badly injured anyway, Rockley very often take on horses after the conventional treatment has been tried and failed, and still usually succeeds.

Some vets are on board, Michen's is one.You're right though, it's a difficult thing to go against the advice of your vet and farrier. More so if you are insured.

When I spoke to my own vet about it he said "but you'll put us out of business" and he wasn't completely joking.
.

 

[SusieT]

It may not have been published because it would not stand up to peer research. There is little evidence on what is best - but vets see many more lame horses over the year than the average horse owner .
I would listen to your vets,feel free t o get second opinion if you are not sure - but if you think about what puts pressure on that area, and how humans would be treated the treatment suggested by vets makes sense. Barefoot rehab - apart from the aspect of being controlled exercise is not a magiv silver bullet.
I would consider if you want to do rehab for a poor prognosis or if you want to turn away and hope for the best (which may get worse). Depeends how lame etc he is and what your situation is.

 

[SusieT]

ps ycbm - who said it was getting phenomenal results? What standard techniques were they comparing it to?

 

[ycbm]

ps ycbm - who said it was getting phenomenal results? What standard techniques were they comparing it to?

What standard techniques are they comparing the medical and shoeing stuff they do now to SusieT?

There's no proper clinical evidence for ANY treatment for DDFT injuries in the foot.

 

[irishdraft]

Nic would not do that. I know her very well. If she didn't want to take your horse she would say so. Are you sure you had the right contact details?
.

I texted her asking best way to contact her about my horse she asked me to email which I did . No reply so 10 days later sent another text asking if she had received my email about 5 days later she replied saying she had not so I sent it again and let her know she replied she had received it and would get back to me I've never heard anything since . Very disappointing after all the good references here but anyway I shall attempt it myself as I have the horse at home .

 

[ycbm]

I texted her asking best way to contact her about my horse she asked me to email which I did . No reply so 10 days later sent another text asking if she had received my email about 5 days later she replied saying she had not so I sent it again and let her know she replied she had received it and would get back to me I've never heard anything since . Very disappointing after all the good references here but anyway I shall attempt it myself as I have the horse at home .

I'm guessing she realised you had no intention of ever sending the horse to her and she was too overloaded at the time to offer help for nothing. She did have a stage about two years back where her technology was letting her down, which she apologised for on the blog.

I'm sure we'll all help if we can. It can be mentally tough to go out alone.
.

 

[SusieT]

SusieT said:
ps ycbm - who said it was getting phenomenal results? What standard techniques were they comparing it to?
What standard techniques are they comparing the medical and shoeing stuff they do now to SusieT?

There's no proper clinical evidence for ANY treatment for DDFT injuries in the foot.

That didn't answer the question I asked about the statement you made did it though?

 

[ycbm]

The phenomenal results are on the blog and in the stables of various people all over the country. My second rehab was brought to me instead of taken to his appointment to be put down at the vet. He has since hunted, won at dressage and showing, and been totally sound for years.

Many barefoot rehabs are started after all the conventional treatment has been done and failed, and work. They are their own control group.

That's what I call phenomenal results.

 

[irishdraft]

I'm guessing she realised you had no intention of ever sending the horse to her and she was too overloaded at the time to offer help for nothing. She did have a stage about two years back where her technology was letting her down, which she apologised for on the blog.

I'm sure we'll all help if we can. It can be mentally tough to go out alone.
.

Actually I was asking her opinion as the foot in question is quite pidgeon toed whether she had one come right with this if I had felt there was some hope for him I may well of taken him down there . It was a simple enquiry not a request for free help but anyway I shall hopefully educate myself .

 

[SEL]

This is what they think mine has although I can't afford the MRI to confirm. There is visible damage to the navicular bone on x ray. She's never had shoes on, always trimmed by a reputable trimmer so I guess there was an injury that I didn't pick up on.

I got a farrier on board in case shoes were necessary but we've found that she is most sound with a very funky, overgrown flared hoof shape. So that's what we're working with.

Not planning shoes right now. Vet is fine with that - just said paddock rest, groundwork in walk and gentle hacking in walk if she stays sound.

 

[ycbm]

SEL it can be difficult if they don't move enough. The one barefoot horse I one who got a ddft injury had far too little turnout or work during one winter, then a hooley in the field in spring, and it went bang. Thankfully Leahurst blew all the insurance money on diagnostics and the owner no longer felt the need to follow the vets advice, which was bar shoes and extensive medication. He went to Rockley instead and was sound in 8 weeks.
.

 

[ester]

The main issue for research is the cost of follow up MRIs and who is paying for them.

They were trying to do it with ultrasound iirc as a cheaper option but suspect that affected the quality of any data.

I often clarify I only have n=1, just that that 1 happens to be one who is significant to me.

 

[SusieT]

Glad we got that straightened out - the person claiming excellent results is also the person 'selling' the 'product' that fixes it i.e. barefoot rehab.
Just so OP knows both apects- vet and barefoot rehab - have a monetary gain to be had so that factor does not affect one treater over the other.

 

[ester]

Well it depends, plenty don't use Rockley's services. One is possible to do on your own and one very much isn't.

 

[ycbm]

Glad we got that straightened out - the person claiming excellent results is also the person 'selling' the 'product' that fixes it i.e. barefoot rehab.
Just so OP knows both apects- vet and barefoot rehab - have a monetary gain to be had so that factor does not affect one treater over the other.

Err, no. There are dozens of us claiming excellent results, some running yards and some private individuals, mostly private individuals.

Can you point me to any research which supports your point of view that conventional treatments by vets and farriers produce a better result, Susie?
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

AE i understand the desire to see proper research, but do you know that there is no research to prove the efficacy of the conventional approach that vets are prescribing?


Far from taking horses which aren't that badly injured anyway, Rockley very often take on horses after the conventional treatment has been tried and failed, and still usually succeeds.

.

I wasn't saying they dont take seriously injured horses, I was saying their good outcomes include the horses who were not seriously injured in the first place. From what I can tell the prognosis is less than 50% return to work for confirmed DDFT injuries in the hoof which compares very unfavourably to 85% success rates Rockley Farm say they get. But that does depend on comparing like with like in terms of initial injury.

The successes after initial treatment fails are even less compelling as evidence given that most soft tissue injuries just need time. They would need to do a controlled crossover trial - conventional then barefoot compared with barefoot then conventional. I suspect the 2nd group would do better in both cases.

I was very interested in the Leahurst collaboration but the most common reason for not publishing is not finding anything interesting enough to publish. Clear evidence of dramatically improved outcomes for a common, hard to treat and career ending injury would be published I believe. I'd love to know what happened to the project but the most likely reason is that the results just weren't that good when looked at closely enough.

That said I'm sure some horses benefit and I'm very glad for those whose horses have recovered. X

 

[ester]

What do you mean by 'weren't that good'? People don't only publish 'good' stuff. Now funding, that's a whole different issue.

I don't think a controlled crossover trial would be appropriate really.