Dead Foals in South Wales, now over 24 dumped!

Crugeran Celt said:
When they are rounded up and shot! That would ensure an end to it for sure!
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That ought to work:) horses did not create the problem after all.
huge problem in Ireland as well and back in springtime 65 horses were rounded up and euthanised. I'm sure there are lots more but this is just the one event I know of as I was in Galway at the time.
Victims of the recession apparently.
 
TrasaM said:
That ought to work:) horses did not create the problem after all.
huge problem in Ireland as well and back in springtime 65 horses were rounded up and euthanised. I'm sure there are lots more but this is just the one event I know of as I was in Galway at the time.
Victims of the recession apparently.
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Sadly it is all around the UK, Ireland and Wales. All horse owners are being hit very badly with the recession and it doesnt seem to be getting any better.
However, its also about having the right number of horses that you are able to afford to keep, and clearly, said breeders who do indeed have 2000 and a lot more horses, cannot afford to keep them at their own personal cost, as they allow them to fly-graze on everyone else's land or gardens.

Everyone needs to stop the over-breeding throughout the UK as a whole. People need to remove the stallions, castrate the colts (dont let them continue to run with their mothers and sisters for a year or two - they are fertile and have been seen covering mares), euthanise/sell or even give away some of the horses! The owners are clearly not coping or able to accept they need help (or more to the point,one who actually doesnt even care two pennies worth for most of the 'second herd' they own). and they need to stop now as the horses situations are getting much worse each and every winter, not better!

All the rescues are hugely over-burdened, they cannot re-home a lot of the existing horses they have, which would enable them to receive more very urgent cases. To the point, a lot of these rescues now suggest euthanise as an alternate (sometimes only option) instead of being able to take the horses in for care.

Where are all the horses going to end up? Dead, starving, suffering, abandoned, killed and dumped?
At least if they are euthanised with the practive carried out by experienced and qualified veterinarians, huntsmen, or other such person, the process would be very quick, the suffering ended, and the bodies disposed of in the correct manner.
Its not what we want, its not something we like to say, but what is the worse outcome for these poor foals? A very hard, stressful and usually very short life struggling to eat before being sent off on thousands of miles journey, frightened and scared and suffering until they meet an end in a slaughterhouse, in who knows what dreadful conditions.

The owners need to wake up, stop breeding.
We need to at least limit the amount of foals being born, possibly enable the owners to afford to castrate what colts are born, or have a chance of a future with people who care.
 
TrasaM said:
Can't see the point in breeding horses for meat. How economic can it be when they take at least 4years to full growth?
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It's like a black market version of continental breeding.

Breed for type. In this case gypsy cobs which were fetching good money a few years ago. Keep & sell the good ones at market. Ship the crap ones off for meat. In principle perfectly reasonable & not unlike barns of youngstock on the continent, where a proportion will go for meat, or similarly racehorse breeding in this country. In reality when the bottom has dropped out of the market less of a good idea. Economics are relative really, after all they will not have to pay for keep, food, farriery, worming, passports or any welfare of the animals. clearly they also don't pay to have surplus colts slaughtered humanely.
 
Vanah.Horses said:
Sadly it is all around the UK, Ireland and Wales. All horse owners are being hit very badly with the recession and it doesnt seem to be getting any better.
However, its also about having the right number of horses that you are able to afford to keep, and clearly, said breeders who do indeed have 2000 and a lot more horses, cannot afford to keep them at their own personal cost, as they allow them to fly-graze on everyone else's land or gardens.

Everyone needs to stop the over-breeding throughout the UK as a whole. People need to remove the stallions, castrate the colts (dont let them continue to run with their mothers and sisters for a year or two - they are fertile and have been seen covering mares), euthanise/sell or even give away some of the horses! The owners are clearly not coping or able to accept they need help (or more to the point,one who actually doesnt even care two pennies worth for most of the 'second herd' they own). and they need to stop now as the horses situations are getting much worse each and every winter, not better!

All the rescues are hugely over-burdened, they cannot re-home a lot of the existing horses they have, which would enable them to receive more very urgent cases. To the point, a lot of these rescues now suggest euthanise as an alternate (sometimes only option) instead of being able to take the horses in for care.

Where are all the horses going to end up? Dead, starving, suffering, abandoned, killed and dumped?
At least if they are euthanised with the practive carried out by experienced and qualified veterinarians, huntsmen, or other such person, the process would be very quick, the suffering ended, and the bodies disposed of in the correct manner.
Its not what we want, its not something we like to say, but what is the worse outcome for these poor foals? A very hard, stressful and usually very short life struggling to eat before being sent off on thousands of miles journey, frightened and scared and suffering until they meet an end in a slaughterhouse, in who knows what dreadful conditions.

The owners need to wake up, stop breeding.
We need to at least limit the amount of foals being born, possibly enable the owners to afford to castrate what colts are born, or have a chance of a future with people who care.
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If this is the case then surely an option for the powers that be would be to humanely cull these unwanted animals so taking away any profit these people would make. Wouldn't that encourage these 'breeders' to stop this. I may be being very niave, there is a breeder of gypsy cobs near me and I have spoken to him regularly and haven't given it a thought that he could be involved in something like this and I am sure he isn't as he breeds nice natured animals and I have noticed that he is starting to breed palaminos and duns now obviously as fashion coloureds are no longer selling at a stupidly high price regardless of quality.
 
TrasaM said:
Can't see the point in breeding horses for meat. How economic can it be when they take at least 4years to full growth?
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That of course, is a valid point. Those horses in France which were traditionally bred for the table, were generally killed, as lambs are, shortly after weaning, or at least by the age of 12 months.

The trade in horses, today, is in the adult animals which are of no further use to their owners. That trade may well include the South Wale-an cobs, but better a humane and correct end, than being left to scavenge as best they can. That's the obscenity, I'd suggest.

Alec.
 
The answer is for abbotoirs to be opened in England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland. The horses would not have to travel huge distances to slaughter (which is one of the main welfare issues associated with the horse meat trade). Some value would return to the horse/pony market (there is a world shortage of meat incidentally) as a bottom would be put in by the meat value. There would not be the welfare issues associated with a horse population of little or no value whatsoever.

This may be an unpalettable soloution for many people but it would solve most of the welfare problems we are seeing now, and have been doing for quite some years, indeed before the recession started this was a problem. We forget that historically horses have always had a carcasevalue be it from the knackery or the abotoir.

Perhaps this shouldbe lobbied for by the charities.
 
Spook,

that's all very well, and you're right, but it's your last line that I have problems with; to wit, "The Charities" are reliant upon donations, they will never support a reinstatement of the status quo.

We now have equine passports where there's a section for an owner to sell the horse with a condition that it never goes into the food chain. Any such animal sold has an immediate and liable penalty put upon it. The horse which has a slaughter value of £500 now has the liability of a £1000 disposal cost attached to it.

The Equine welfare bodies will all agree, privately, that we need a commercial disposal system, but as they rely upon charitable donations, in the main, few have the courage to step up and be counted. ;)

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Spook,

that's all very well, and you're right, but it's your last line that I have problems with; to wit, "The Charities" are reliant upon donations, they will never support a reinstatement of the status quo.

We now have equine passports where there's a section for an owner to sell the horse with a condition that it never goes into the food chain. Any such animal sold has an immediate and liable penalty put upon it. The horse which has a slaughter value of £500 now has the liability of a £1000 disposal cost attached to it.

The Equine welfare bodies will all agree, privately, that we need a commercial disposal system, but as they rely upon charitable donations, in the main, few have the courage to step up and be counted. ;)

Alec.
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So it's the economics of cost rather than the economics of value which makes the situation worse then?
 
I remember well when we had local horse abbatoirs and the EU rules whch made them impossible to continue was one of the worst days work done :( We were fortunate that we had such an abbatoir in our area, we are also fortunate that when it closed as a commercial abbatoir, it then continued as a 'pet' cremmatorium. I still fail to understand why a large herbivore is not seen as a viable source of meat in this country. I also fail to see who would eat mature horse meat, as opposed to younger meat, as we eat in all other cases.
 
Koala Kate said:
WOW!!!
You guys sure do fight !
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No, not fighting either, just discussing the subject, a soloution is vital for the wellbeing of all equines.

Yes one of the reasons we are in such a predicament is to some extent to do with the economics of the animal charities..... If the soloution discussed was employed the Charities would not be so vial for animal welfare as there would be far fewer cases of elderly, unwanted, lame or neglected animals going about, those bred for meat at present (and I'm not sure many are at all) would only travel a relatively short distance to slaughter, no more than our cattle do hopefully, and leave the contry on the hook.

Alec Swan, The Charities are being disingenuous if privately they say one thing but refuse commit, so far as I can see, to the only action to solve the problem. Which camp is the BHS in??

Of course the Horse Charities would find themselves to be largely un-neccessary, but not completely....... Is that the problem???????

Of course we would run the risk of there being a profitable trade in meat horses, unlikly I think (and this is probably a reason the slaughter houses would need to be charity driven as they would only work when the throughput was viable otherwise) In a country where we eat large herbivores anyway the arguement against horse meat is a tad wobbly and largely emotive. Untill very recent times studs have always sent their unwanted/poor quality horses in for meat, the best being the kept, the cream of the crop. .....and this is a reason we have so much crap going about in ALL breeds(Another subject perhaps)

And yes in poor econoic times studs always have sold some or most of their yongsters for meat. We are in a mess of our own making due to the persistant brainwasing by the animal rights lobbyists..... we are very guilleable.
 
I knew very little about the horse meat situation except of course for the issue of transporting live animals to the continent under what was reported as terrible conditions. However having grown up on a farm with beef cattle we were never under any illusion as children as to where they would end up. Even the cute baby ones we had to hand feed. As to eating horse, personally I'd prefer not but I used the sense in having a proper system set up whereby they are humanely killed and their meat used rather than being incinerated. Environmentally I'm pretty sure this would also be better. I don't know what it is about horse. I happily eat venison and have no conflict with pictures of cute bambi creatures and venison on my plate so I suppose it's just a mind shift.

Outside the farming community most people have little or no contact with farm animals and there is definitely a lack of understanding as to how those packages of meat get to the butchers and supermarkets. Remember the fuss some years back about orphren calves and the dairy farmers?
Reality check is needed for us all methinks. Government often hives off it's sticky animal welfare issues on charities. Charities get their funds from people who care and believe they are doing the right thing and their presence allows authorities to hive off problems of animal welfare onto charities when they should be dealt with properly through government agencies and the legal system.
 
Spook said:
The answer is for abbotoirs to be opened in England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland. The horses would not have to travel huge distances to slaughter (which is one of the main welfare issues associated with the horse meat trade). Some value would return to the horse/pony market (there is a world shortage of meat incidentally) as a bottom would be put in by the meat value. There would not be the welfare issues associated with a horse population of little or no value whatsoever.

This may be an unpalettable soloution for many people but it would solve most of the welfare problems we are seeing now, and have been doing for quite some years, indeed before the recession started this was a problem. We forget that historically horses have always had a carcasevalue be it from the knackery or the abotoir.

Perhaps this shouldbe lobbied for by the charities.
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This has been subject to a massive petition, lobbied and recently reviewed by the government who made a very few slight changes, but basically allowed the process to continue.

There are two main equine slaughterhouses in the UK, Turners and Potters, and these buy horses at the market and privately. They also export live.
Mares, geldings, stallions, colts, fillies, and foal are ALL acceptable to be entered into the meat slaughter chain (even pregnant mares).

Due to the huge campaign in the USA to stop the horses being travelled many thousands of miles to slaughter in Mexico and Canada after the usa equine slaughter ban, they recently RE-INTRODUCED the equine slaughter facility.
Horses are turning up in urban areas, such as Miami-Dade, that have been butchered and remains left that would prove they were slaughtered for meat, not just to dispose of a body.
Another reason they re-introduced the slaughter was to try to stop all the back-street butchers that carry out self-slaughters in who knows what methods or conditions.
 
Do Turners and Potters export live horses and ponies out of the UK for slaughter?

If not who are "They" Vannah.Horses
 
Vanah.Horses said:
.......
There are two main equine slaughterhouses in the UK, Turners and Potters, and these buy horses at the market and privately. They also export live.
.......
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I'm assuming that you have evidence to support your statement. I'd like to see it, because I doubt your claim.

..........................................

The breeding of horses for meat in this country has always been viewed with a great deal of distaste. We have never had abattoirs which have been set up, on a commercial basis, to deal with horses, and we never will, because firstly, the will simply isn't there, and secondly, the production of horses for meat would make for no economic sense.

We have only ever previously had slaughter houses which have viewed horses as of secondary interest to the main slaughter of farm stock. The Continental market for horse meat is generally centred around young and purpose bred horses, the old and the infirm, the knackered, would go as processed meat and certainly not as a prime purpose bred and finished product. All that we generally have to offer the Continental meat buyers, would be meat from the lower end of the value scale.

It would be quite correctly illegal to transport horses which are not fit to travel, those with broken limbs, for instance, so the bulk of those horses taken in by our two existing specialist equine abattoirs, would only fit into the category of the less than desirable, from the meat buyers perspective.

As a Nation, we've been through times of stringent recession before, but after a brief lull, we've turned it round, and once again been on the up. This recession is world wide and it's here to stay. We have to learn how to live within our means, and that wont include the speculative business of breeding horses that no one wants, or can afford. In our current economic climate, and following on from a massive over production of horses, we have a huge excess, with no coherent plan for their disposal. That in itself wouldn't be grounds for the capitol expenditure, which is massive, which would be needed to construct equine abattoirs, from scratch.

In my view the two existing abattoirs, Potters and Turners should be given every support, not only from the horse owning public, but from Government. As someone else has said, Government tends to hive off the responsibilities of animal welfare to the charities (that makes for good vote gathering tactics ;)), so there's little support to be had from that direction, though I suppose that if we were to invite officials from the BHS or the RSPCA or other such bodies to comment on there stance regarding the commercial slaughter of horses, perhaps if they're in agreement, it would be a step towards solving our current problem.

I'd be interested to hear the comments of the Original Poster, to this post.

With a base line commercial value for our horses, we will have a starting point, and a reason for the less than moral to make greater efforts to protect their investment. With no such value, foals, are apparently being dumped and awaiting Council refuse collection. It's a sorry state of affairs. Whinging about it and reporting the offenders to Authority is demonstrably pointless. We need to support another system, and "WE" is you and I. We need to lobby those charities who have the ear of Government, in an effort to support our existing and limited and local abattoirs.

That's what I think, and I shan't be wearing a tin hat, because I believe in my argument!! ;):D

Alec.
 
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If equines are to be reared for meat they need the same protection as other livestock. I agree with the poster who suggested a mass cull would be a start. I think Potters & Turners do a good job, they are just awash with unwanted animals at the moment though.
In their fields you will see ponies with foal at foot, who are in foal, all being fattened for slaughter. The whole situation is a disgrace, this petition will interest anyone who feels the same:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003
 
siennamum said:
If equines are to be reared for meat they need the same protection as other livestock. I agree with the poster who suggested a mass cull would be a start. I think Potters & Turners do a good job, they are just awash with unwanted animals at the moment though.
In their fields you will see ponies with foal at foot, who are in foal, all being fattened for slaughter. The whole situation is a disgrace, this petition will interest anyone who feels the same:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003
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Signed. Perhaps a new thread explaining the petition would also be beneficial.
 
siennamum said:
.......

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003
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I'm about to sign it, but am unsure as to the intention of the petition. Is the intention A/ To simply bring horses into the same regulatory control as other farm livestock, and thereby make the owners responsible, B/ To attempt to put a stop to those who would breed ostensibly for meat? A combination of A & B or C/ Any other intention?

I agree with those who would have the practise of breeding horses for meat, stopped, but am realistic enough to accept that firstly the current situation needs dealing with, with a degree of expediency, and secondly that stiff and enforceable regulations may help in the future, the one small fly in the ointment being, that if the owners of these horses have no fixed abode, then as with all other crime and regulation which applies to them, the Authorities seem loathe to act. Something to do with race relations, or their level of ethnicity, so I'm told. ;)

Alec.
 
Personal opinion
If horses are bred specifically for meat then all the regulations applied to our other meat producing animals should be adhered to including proper identification,control of medication etc

If this business were to increase in UK more properly licensed abattoirs will be needed, long distance transport to less well regulated abattoirs outside UK must be stopped

THE breeder in S Wales will say he does not produce for meat--his intention is to breed cobs selling for 4 figures plus to sell to US and Continental buyers
 
This might seem like a really silly question but do pople have to have a licience to keep a stallion? If not why not? I am sure this problem does not only apply to horses but to dogs and cats also, it is a very sad fact that there are many animals living an awful life only to meet a painfull early death. I still feel that these animals should be humanely culled, surely they can be removed from the owner if it is proved that he is unable to supply a suitable habitat for them, if it was one of us with an animal that was not being looked after I am sure they would be confiscated pretty quick. Once a cull has been carried out and owner banned from horse ownership the situation would improve as I am sure he/she/them would not bother trying to build up another herd especially if they were checked regularly. In the long run that would be cheaper than having to clear up the carcusses of these foals every year!
 
stallions no longer are legally obliged to be licensed, my first stallion many years ago was licenced by the ministry of agriculture, a vet came and gave him a basic vetting and opinion on confo etc., the licencing was abandoned later maybe because horse are not considered agricultural animals in uk.

my present stallion is licenced by his breed society to enable his foals to be registered.

i personally think all stallions and breeders of horses should be licenced, the current tragic situation is prove enough for anybody, i should have thought.
 
Tristar I totaly agree thats why I asked if they were, as I bred a foal 19 years ago and used a licienced stallion so assumed that they still had to be. Perhaps that would be a way forward that all stallions should only be kept by a registered, licienced owner. Unfortunately until something is decided more and more horses and other animals are going to be found this way as this type of peson will not keep what they can't sell for a profit. Perhaps cheaper vets fees for gelding would be another suggestion.
 
I think this is pertinent to this thread?

Today I have been told of a vet refusing to pts 2 horses which the owner can no longer afford to keep, one is elderly but healthy and the other has long standing health issues requiring constant monitoring.... neither is in pain, but one is intermittently uncomfortable. The grounds for refusal are that they have a good quality of life and that the conditions are manageable. Personally I think this is a disgraceful situation.

If the owner of the foals which were dumped or any other persons met with this attitude what on earth are they supposed to do??? The owner is going to ring the knackery, but she really had wanted the deed done by injection.

Are vets not overly keen on the horse population dropping??
 
Spook said:
I think this is pertinent to this thread?

Today I have been told of a vet refusing to pts 2 horses which the owner can no longer afford to keep, one is elderly but healthy and the other has long standing health issues requiring constant monitoring.... neither is in pain, but one is intermittently uncomfortable. The grounds for refusal are that they have a good quality of life and that the conditions are manageable. Personally I think this is a disgraceful situation.

If the owner of the foals which were dumped or any other persons met with this attitude what on earth are they supposed to do??? The owner is going to ring the knackery, but she really had wanted the deed done by injection.

Are vets not overly keen on the horse population dropping??
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That is such bad practise by the vet, that one wonders at which point the vet does believe it is appropriate to euthenise the animal, when it is emmaciated when the owner cannot afford to feed it, perhaps?
 
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