Dead horse at Aintree today

eahotson said:
FWIW I don't think giving the jockeys or the race steewards a good kicking.These are the little people and the jockey in question had about 10 seconds to make a decision which,if it had been wrong,could have ended his career.It is the system that is wrong to me.Racing the horses to the very maximum of their physical and mental abilities.This is always going to lead to more accidents for both horses and riders.Incidentally the Independent posted a photo of a jockey waving his stick in the air and with a very aggressive expression on his face.If a dressage/show jumping or eventing rider was shown riding in that fashion there would be an out cry.And finally I see the Tindals had a nice day out!
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While I agree with most of your sentiments, the jockey did make the wrong decision and it should have ended his career. Indirectly he caused the death of that horse by not putting it's welfare first when surely someone of his experience would have known there was something wrong before the horses back end gave out after the last fence it jumped. If it had been pulled up when the injury occurred there may have been a chance to save it.
 
The jockey is the one sitting on the horse, he is a highly trainer professional with years of experience behind him...

Paul Towned isn't a young lad, he knew perfectly well the horse wasn't right, he should have had the balls to pull up !

Even, if it meant no to ride for that particular owner or trainer anymore, the person sitting on the horse is responsible for the horse welfare..

It was his decison to carry on, hope that he can sleep well at night....

Jump jockey are well known to be extremely brave, going at speed over solid fences, guess having the courage to pull up was too much for him...

I personnaly would admire a jockey saying no a lot more than one winning and hurting the horse...

Let's hope than jockey's of the future might have a bit more courage !
 
reynold said:
I would just like to put in a word for trainers of 'low value TBs' mentioned above. Not all trainers think the less of them. My OH and I have shares in a few 'low value' TBs in multi-owner syndicates (3000 in the syndicate so you 'own' about a tail hair)
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Low value is anything that has not fit to race or not worth the training fees, as long as you can get someone to pay the training fee it has a value, its a business. Trainers unless they are very high ranked are constantly looking for owners. Once an owner refuses for what ever reason to stop paying the fees, the trainer has a horse costing them money.
If they have access to a field they may turn them away which in some cases could be the worst thing, they have not lived out of a herd from perhaps 14 mnths old, so the chances are they have few field survival skills. Their digestion is not used to processing the amount of fibre intake to maintain a what ever fat covering they have and they lose weight because they are expending energy walking for food, and all the time the trainer may be trying to find them a home, and its eating in to income.

How horses are kept, a clean bed does not fore fulfil a horses social needs especially a young horse. I have been around a lot of training yards and they are always clean, much much cleaner than my yard, I have even been on a stallion yard where their home, it was bigger than a lobby of a large hotel with double glass doors, had its own kitchen, double glazing and most humans would be able to live in it with furniture. The yard is the shop window to sell their wares, and even if your trainer is a good one you have to be aware it's part of the sales pitch.
My friends daughter was paid to hold horses for the farrier, because some staff have no horse skills what so ever. I picked up a foster foal from a TB stud, two stud hands to help as it was in the field, it was quite obvious they had no idea, and my normally clueless husband at least knows how to load a horse.

The foal was under weight for its breeding, not vaccinated, because it wasn't on the main yard as it saves money even though they often get discounted vet fees, and I doubt had been wormed. I got it as one of my bargain because it looked like a wonky donkey, after I made and offer and told them why its was worth what they were asking. They had no interest at all because it wasn't a TB, if they had feed it, it was probably worth £3k.

Then there is the whole foster mare industry. I had a foster mare on loan, she came from Ireland, big enough to feed a TB but small enough to be cheap to keep, completely effed up by the whole experience, we think she had been over sedated for the ferry. When the farrier would do her trims she would quiver, too frightened to move.
They used not to keep the foals, until someone worked out that there was actually a market for the foals and some had them AI'd by better stallions not just a teaser TB, mine was by a Graded ID, but they are still weaned early so the mare can feed a TB.

The whole industry has tried to soften the edges of the production line, the more you know how it works, the cycle of production, the short cuts, it's harder to justify the welfare cost for a nice day out and flutter. The only winners really are the bookies.
Having seen how beef cattle are kept in the UK on many farms I think they actually have a better total life even if they do end up on someone plate.
I could go to the races for free, but never go, once you know how it all works what little appeal it had which was about the horses, has gone.
 
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To the person writing about the small trainers and syndicates, and I know this is going to open a new can of worms. . .

I confess to having my doubts about syndicates, as I see it they are/can/could be a way of actually diluting the sport and leading to a proliferation of unnecessary breeding in order to fulfil a requirement for cheap horses to be syndicated out to the masses who simply want to be able to say they have a racehorse. I should go on to clarify though that I realise this is not always the case, there are good syndicates of knowledgeable people, equally there are also syndicates that just comprise 100s of 'owners' with little or no knowledge looking for a cheapish day out rubbing shoulders with the wealthy and celebrity owners.
 
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Janique said:
The jockey is the one sitting on the horse, he is a highly trainer professional with years of experience behind him...

Paul Towned isn't a young lad, he knew perfectly well the horse wasn't right, he should have had the balls to pull up !

Even, if it meant no to ride for that particular owner or trainer anymore, the person sitting on the horse is responsible for the horse welfare..

It was his decison to carry on, hope that he can sleep well at night....

Jump jockey are well known to be extremely brave, going at speed over solid fences, guess having the courage to pull up was too much for him...

I personnaly would admire a jockey saying no a lot more than one winning and hurting the horse...

Let's hope than jockey's of the future might have a bit more courage !
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Or maybe,just maybe they could rely on the backing of the wealthy owners or is that too much to ask?
 
perhaps it needs something along the lines of endurance, not proposing to give them 30 mins to fiddle it past but say 10 mins in the open under inspection (and no drugs allowed) then presented for a sound trot up, no saddle marks, no bit marks and a reasonable pulse rate ie a horse fit to continue. Disqualified if it fails the final vetting.
 
reynold said:
I would just like to put in a word for trainers of 'low value TBs' mentioned above. Not all trainers think the less of them. My OH and I have shares in a few 'low value' TBs in multi-owner syndicates (3000 in the syndicate so you 'own' about a tail hair).

We've been now to 9 different stable visits to different trainers and apart from 1 trainer where the horses were a bit 'shut down' every other trainers yard the horses have been happy, keen to interact with our group (around 100 people), and we've been allowed free range to wander around the stables. This has been flat, NH and dual NH/flat trainers. Certainly apart from the Newmarket trainer all the yards had turnout for their horses - mainly in small groups. The horses at Newmarket had a paddock to be hand-grazed after exercise as no turnout except for several round pens used in rotation.

All yards had much better deep beds than I typically have seen at livery yards and the skin/coats of the horses have all been gleaming.

I'd much rather have low value horses go on to race here and then be retired here via one of the charities than have them sold to race in the far east countries like India. Three I looked after in the 80s ended up going thru Ascot sales and travelling to foreign climes. When I see those pictures on TV/internet from charities like Brooke I always wonder if the horses involved in the awful pictures are ex racehorses......

After Aintree yesterday my conclusion was that I admired the horse, I am Maximus, for his ability to run 3 times in the GN to such a good effect. I just wished that it wasn't Paul Townend riding the winner (or any of the placed horses).
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But its not really acceptable is it? I dont care how gleaming their coats are or how deep their beds are. Having no or massively limited turnout is not acceptable for any horses. There is a reason 90% of racehorses have ulcers.
 
Honestly, I think I’d prefer to be a racehorse than a dressage horse.

The race yards I’ve seen over the past couple of years do seem to provide paired/trios turnout, the horses look healthy, and every Ottb I’ve met so far seems to have been very nicely handled by people, and extremely approachable. Can’t speak for the feeding, though.

(One yard I saw from a distance when visiting a different attraction next to the race yard - over 20 were turned out that I could see. Another I saw as part of a syndicate because my nan had brought a syndicate membership that we didn’t particularly want, but decided to have a nose about on a tour when we had nothing better to do. Plus I’ve met 2 or 3 ottbs at various stages in their post-racing lives.)

I’m not convinced that the standard of life for eventers/dressage horses/sj horses at the top level is hugely different to that of a racehorse, because these are high-value horses, for whom turnout may be considered financially risky. They will also be fed for performance. Again, not an excuse, but an issue that permeates most top-level equestrian sport.
 
reynold said:
I would just like to put in a word for trainers of 'low value TBs' mentioned above. Not all trainers think the less of them. My OH and I have shares in a few 'low value' TBs in multi-owner syndicates (3000 in the syndicate so you 'own' about a tail hair).

We've been now to 9 different stable visits to different trainers and apart from 1 trainer where the horses were a bit 'shut down' every other trainers yard the horses have been happy, keen to interact with our group (around 100 people), and we've been allowed free range to wander around the stables. This has been flat, NH and dual NH/flat trainers. Certainly apart from the Newmarket trainer all the yards had turnout for their horses - mainly in small groups. The horses at Newmarket had a paddock to be hand-grazed after exercise as no turnout except for several round pens used in rotation.

All yards had much better deep beds than I typically have seen at livery yards and the skin/coats of the horses have all been gleaming.

I'd much rather have low value horses go on to race here and then be retired here via one of the charities than have them sold to race in the far east countries like India. Three I looked after in the 80s ended up going thru Ascot sales and travelling to foreign climes. When I see those pictures on TV/internet from charities like Brooke I always wonder if the horses involved in the awful pictures are ex racehorses......

After Aintree yesterday my conclusion was that I admired the horse, I am Maximus, for his ability to run 3 times in the GN to such a good effect. I just wished that it wasn't Paul Townend riding the winner (or any of the placed horses).
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The horses don't give a pop how shiny their coats are or that they have big beds. They're horses. 1781.jpg
 
Janique said:
The jockey is the one sitting on the horse, he is a highly trainer professional with years of experience behind him...

Paul Towned isn't a young lad, he knew perfectly well the horse wasn't right, he should have had the balls to pull up !

Even, if it meant no to ride for that particular owner or trainer anymore, the person sitting on the horse is responsible for the horse welfare..

It was his decison to carry on, hope that he can sleep well at night....

Jump jockey are well known to be extremely brave, going at speed over solid fences, guess having the courage to pull up was too much for him...

I personnaly would admire a jockey saying no a lot more than one winning and hurting the horse...

Let's hope than jockey's of the future might have a bit more courage !
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In a perfect world run by fairies the jockey could have pulled up and even if he had been wrong he would have had the support of the trainer,owner and the punters who had bet on him.Can you see that happening ..?I can't. The jockey would have lost his job,been unable to pay his bills and he perhaps has a family relying on him.The great and the good meanwhile??
 
eahotson said:
In a perfect world run by fairies the jockey could have pulled up and even if he had been wrong he would have had the support of the trainer,owner and the punters who had bet on him.Can you see that happening ..?I can't. The jockey would have lost his job,been unable to pay his bills and he perhaps has a family relying on him.The great and the good meanwhile??
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Maybe, the jockey would have lost his job but maybe not. Besides, he might ride for others trainers and owners, I don't know if he only rides for 1 trainer ?

With horse welfare getting better all the time, let just imagine the opposite happening...

Paul Townend pull up and explain that the horse couldn't go on. He says that he was the one on the horse and as a horseman, he simply couldn't go on.

The wealthy owner, the very famous trainer agree, horse come first ! The owner speaks on tv, tears in their eyes saying the horse was put down but at least the jockey did the right thing.

Welfare people, the general public are impressed by their horsemanship and start seeing racing with new eyes.

The punters after a few minutes realise that it's not the end of the world and agree that after all it's only a horse race, there will be other races,
they toast Paul Townend and his horsemanship !

The media, the rspca, the international press get's in, Paul Townend, the trainer and the owner are seen as caring people.

The trainer, again with tears in his eyes, explain than his in 40 years of being a trainer, he has seen horrific accidents and had always thought of the horse welfare first.

The very weathly owner give a big check to the rspca and the injuried jockey fund, as they have other horses and for them the money isn't the first reason they have horses.

It's only a expensive hobby and after all, they love their horses. They always make sure their horses get's a nice retirement and the tv shows them crazing in a nice sunny field ! ( impossible in the UK 😁 )

The racing officials make a new documentary about the trainer, the horse's lass and as a results, more owners invest in new horses.

Paul Townend get's a reputation of being brave and a real horseman, as he results he get's more ride as people like people how stand out and you can trust.

I know it's a fairy tale but sometimes, you only need one gutsy person to make a change..
 
Janique said:
Maybe, the jockey would have lost his job but maybe not. Besides, he might ride for others trainers and owners, I don't know if he only rides for 1 trainer ?

With horse welfare getting better all the time, let just imagine the opposite happening...

Paul Townend pull up and explain that the horse couldn't go on. He says that he was the one on the horse and as a horseman, he simply couldn't go on.

The wealthy owner, the very famous trainer agree, horse come first ! The owner speaks on tv, tears in their eyes saying the horse was put down but at least the jockey did the right thing.

Welfare people, the general public are impressed by their horsemanship and start seeing racing with new eyes.

The punters after a few minutes realise that it's not the end of the world and agree that after all it's only a horse race, there will be other races,
they toast Paul Townend and his horsemanship !

The media, the rspca, the international press get's in, Paul Townend, the trainer and the owner are seen as caring people.

The trainer, again with tears in his eyes, explain than his in 40 years of being a trainer, he has seen horrific accidents and had always thought of the horse welfare first.

The very weathly owner give a big check to the rspca and the injuried jockey fund, as they have other horses and for them the money isn't the first reason they have horses.

It's only a expensive hobby and after all, they love their horses. They always make sure their horses get's a nice retirement and the tv shows them crazing in a nice sunny field ! ( impossible in the UK 😁 )

The racing officials make a new documentary about the trainer, the horse's lass and as a results, more owners invest in new horses.

Paul Townend get's a reputation of being brave and a real horseman, as he results he get's more ride as people like people how stand out and you can trust.

I know it's a fairy tale but sometimes, you only need one gutsy person to make a change..
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Has racing got so much better??Charlotte wasn't whipping a horse with a broken back but she went viral.What happened here?Pictures of Zara and family ha ing a nice day out.
 
eahotson said:
He didn't know that but hey kick the jockey not the owner or trainer who would have taken his living from him .So much easier isn't it?
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I do not believe him 🤷🏻‍♀️. And honestly, I’m so surprised any experienced riders do.

I am not “kicking”, I am criticising. Ultimately, he didn’t lose his living, did he? But the horse did lose his life after being whipped over the finish line after already giving his all. The jockey went on to win the national the very next day, and we can’t talk about how f*cked up that is? I am advocating for the horse.

The jockey, owner, trainer, punters and sponsors are all to blame. Does that help?
 
equinerebel said:
I do not believe him 🤷🏻‍♀️. And honestly, I’m so surprised any experienced riders do.

I am not “kicking”, I am criticising. Ultimately, he didn’t lose his living, did he? But the horse did lose his life after being whipped over the finish line after already giving his all. The jockey went on to win the national the very next day, and we can’t talk about how f*cked up that is? I am advocating for the horse.

The jockey, owner, trainer, punters and sponsors are all to blame. Does that help?
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But you are not blaming them are you?Or looking for solutions.
 
eahotson said:
He didn't know that but hey kick the jockey not the owner or trainer who would have taken his living from him .So much easier isn't it?
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As someone else has already pointed out on one of these threads, his not knowing (for the sake of argument) doesn't necessarily make things better. What that means is that even experienced people are insufficiently sensitive to what's going on under them to realise when they're riding out a fatally injured horse, so should any people be riding them in such high-stakes, risky situations?
 
eahotson said:
He didn't know that but hey kick the jockey not the owner or trainer who would have taken his living from him .So much easier isn't it?
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Best read the full thread, that is all covered.

It’s the whole rotten system of racing and the £££s in it that is in it to blame, not just the jockeys.

The horses are just disposable articles of equipment in the industry. Break one, bring on the next.
 
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eahotson said:
In a perfect world run by fairies the jockey could have pulled up and even if he had been wrong he would have had the support of the trainer,owner and the punters who had bet on him.Can you see that happening ..?I can't. The jockey would have lost his job,been unable to pay his bills and he perhaps has a family relying on him.The great and the good meanwhile??
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You’re right; no one is interested in the well-being of the horse - money must always come first. And that’s exactly why it must be banned.
 
eahotson said:
Why are you so keen to avoid holding the the rich and powerful from theirs?They create these things and avoid any penalties but hey they are so rich aren't they?
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I’m not. I blame them for the entire sodding, corrupt industry. Just like I blame the jockey for whipping a horse with a broken back.

I blame both.

The jockey may exist within that industry, but he also makes his own decisions and needs to be accountable for them, as we all are at our jobs.
 
The owner is hardly the nicest person, the fact his rep was so quick to come out and defend the jockey, no comment to acknowledge how brave and genuine the horse speaks volumes

Look at Mr Vango, the trainer generally comes across as quite horse centric as a smaller yard, but is already hoping he will be back next season if fit to do so
 
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