Dead horse at Aintree today

I'm Dun said:
Its preferable for the jockey to be the exact weight the horse is allocated. Human weight is deemed to be easier to carry than lead weight. Sometimes the weights are very low and jockeys who dont make that weight, dont get rides. Its brutal.

There used to be a minimum weight limit in eventing at the higher levels, and lead was used to make the weight up. It gave an advantage to men who naturally weigh more. But it was abolished a while ago, so I guess ot now gives an advantage to smaller women.
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FEI still have a minimum weight for endurance at senior level of 75kg. Lighter weight riders and horses are punished by having to carry lead. I know of one rider whose horse struggled with it to the extent they will no longer consider FEI classes. I think, over 50 or 100 miles (80 or 160km) this is brutal in a number of ways.
 
Gushing praise from the trainer on FB for the jockey who is ‘having a super season’ despite getting referred to the stewards at Aintree for using his whip too many times on the trainer’s horse in the hurdle race in addition to his recent previous whip offences, plus a 10 day ban for the horrible fall at the last on the exhausted horse in the National. He gave the horse a ‘super ride’ apparently, funny how he omits the whip reference.

See, the rot is ingrained. The trainers horse got the win as the first placed horse in the hurdle race was disqualified altogether as that jockey used the whip too many times even for racing, and his jockey also used the whip too many times but not enough times to be disqualified.

See, it’s all about the win, never mind how it is achieved.

Dead horse? Nah, no bother, got the win.
 
There are people working in racing who do care but sadly don't have the influence. These are the dedicated grooms/work riders that look after 'their' 3 or more horses every day and go racing with them.

ITV always gives a condolence message to the groom of any horse that is lost and try to also note the names of the winning groom. Racehorses are generally lucky to have mainly good people looking after them (and who are paid a regulated and living wage - unlike many non-racing yards/grooms).

As with livery and other places there are always going to be nasty people but as in many things in life whilst there are bad actors they are now in the minority.

No, racing isn't perfect but when you look at the statistics for whip abuse and horse deaths things are getting better. The same also applies to XC eventing courses and falls/fatalities.

I do feel overall that top class racehorses have a better life than top class dressage horses. There is always room for improvement of course.
 
bonny said:
Just think after five days we are going round in circles, I don’t believe these threads change anyone’s mind
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The point isn’t always to change someone’s mind. Sometimes people are just upset and angry and need a place to vent in company. I haven’t actually seen you put forward any argument for or against racing at all apart from “Oh well the horse died and nothing else could be done anyway”.

Even those who do enjoy racing or work in racing have shown empathy for the horse and its connections. Except you. Which is puzzling. Most people on here have a genuine love for the horse rather than the sport which is why you’re very much in the minority on this thread.

Have you ever actually owned a horse or are you just a die hard racing fan?
 
IrishMilo said:
The point isn’t always to change someone’s mind. Sometimes people are just upset and angry and need a place to vent in company. I haven’t actually seen you put forward any argument for or against racing at all apart from “Oh well the horse died and nothing else could be done anyway”.

Even those who do enjoy racing or work in racing have shown empathy for the horse and its connections. Except you. Which is puzzling. Most people on here have a genuine love for the horse rather than the sport which is why you’re very much in the minority on this thread.

Have you ever actually owned a horse or are you just a die hard racing fan?
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Let’s of them, spent most of my life involved in racing in some way but only have one very ancient ex racehorse now.
I think racing will end, not for many years but whether that’s an improvement in any way I’m not sure. I haven’t seen anyone come up with a plan for ten thousands of unwanted racehorses.
 
bonny said:
Let’s of them, spent most of my life involved in racing in some way but only have one very ancient ex racehorse now.
I think racing will end, not for many years but whether that’s an improvement in any way I’m not sure. I haven’t seen anyone come up with a plan for ten thousands of unwanted racehorses.
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Same as happens to them now, they are PTS. At least it could be monitored rather than what has happened, which is they ended up in Findus lasagne!
 
meleeka said:
I've seen this comment a few times on this thread. Can you explain why you think that? What does a racehorse get that a dressage horse doesn't?
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I've already listed a few.
Turnout - most NH horses get daily turnout these days and they have the summer off turned out in groups regardless of how valuable they are (I will always remember a visit to PN's yard on TV where Kauto, Denman and Masterminded were out together in the same field, I don't know the value there just that it was A LOT). A lot of dressage horses (not all) do not get turned out at all and those who do are often turned out alone. This is because the risk of injury and value.

A race horse's job is to go along in pretty much straight lines with a bunch of their mates. This is a fairly natural thing for a horse to do and a lot of them are happy to do it and appear to enjoy it.
Not much of what modern dressage horses do is particularly natural and most of them don't look like they're enjoying it.

A racehorse will not carry more than 12st in a race and is unlikely to carry much more in exercise.

Racehorses are worked and raced in snaffle bits and the most technical noseband you're likely to see is an old fashioned English style crackle. Dressage horses work in curbs, cranks, and flashes done up so tight, they need lots of padding.

Racehorses are not ridden in spurs.

Racehorses generally don't get their heads tied down with gadgets (although I have seen recently that some trainers do) and they're not worked in rollkur.
 
reynold said:
As with livery and other places there are always going to be nasty people but as in many things in life whilst there are bad actors they are now in the minority.

No, racing isn't perfect but when you look at the statistics for whip abuse and horse deaths things are getting better.

I do feel overall that top class racehorses have a better life than top class dressage horses. There is always room for improvement of course.
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Ive picked out some bits of what you said. What utter crap. How can they be in the minority when they are riding yearlings and racing two year old, keeping animals stabled, and causing ulcers in over 90% of racehorses?

Are things getting better? Sure, maybe some whip stuff but overall, I dont see any changes.

Top class horses in most sports have an awful life so I wouldnt be bragging about one being better than the other. They are all pretty crap.
 
I thnk horse racing goes on because there is so much money attached to it including tax for the government. And because the Royals are involved.If it was a poor persons hobby it would have been banned years ago due to unacceptable deaths and massive overbreeding. Its like grouse and other shoots. Theyll be next to go after fox hunting. Instead i foresee people culling deer and grouse if theres too many for the environment rather than actual commercial shoots and safary type eco wildlife holidays for people to look at heather and insects and so on and maybe catch a glimpse of a grouse, like whale spotting tours. Fortunately we are becoming more compassionate as a society towards animals rather than seeing them as something to chase and kill or bet on.
 
I'm Dun said:
Ive picked out some bits of what you said. What utter crap. How can they be in the minority when they are riding yearlings and racing two year old, keeping animals stabled, and causing ulcers in over 90% of racehorses?

Are things getting better? Sure, maybe some whip stuff but overall, I dont see any changes.

Top class horses in most sports have an awful life so I wouldnt be bragging about one being better than the other. They are all pretty crap.
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Agreed
 
I think you and I will always disagree on racing I'm Dun.

You are very anti whereas I sit somewhere in the middle. I don't bet - I am interested in the breeding side and also how the dominance of some bloodlines have been detrimental to TB soundness - going right back to Northern Dancer.

I'm not blind to the areas where improvement is needed in racing and had I not seen both improvements and efforts to improve further - and had the GN continued to lose 6 horses in the race every year or had jockeys been allowed to continue thrashing horses over the line (thinking what L. Piggott used to ride like) then I probably would also have stopped watching.

I would also have stopped watching eventing if something hadn't been done about rotational falls and the deaths of both riders and horses. I was at Blenheim many years ago when a top rider was killed and it wasn't good. I can no longer watch top class dressage unless someone highlights a good and kind GP test like Becky Moody's recent win on Jaegerbomb.

As regards racing 2 yr olds I can, without much effort, think of another group of horses of that age (and younger just weaned foals) that a certain un-nameable community ride and use for harness racing on the road. These are the animals that, when dead, are often dumped at the side of the road. They are the animals that also regularly flood into rescue centres and receive no veterinary care.

No one as far as I'm aware is talking about banning that group of people from having horses.....
 
Surely he could do ROR or something why bring him back racing after 5 YEARS?? Why haven't they tried him with another activity in this time or a different yard where he wouldn't see the busyness of a race yard. These never usually end well when horses are sent back racing

Bit of an insult too "field pony". What if he struggles racing when coming back since he apparently only wants to race?

 
reynold said:
As regards racing 2 yr olds I can, without much effort, think of another group of horses of that age (and younger just weaned foals) that a certain un-nameable community ride and use for harness racing on the road. These are the animals that, when dead, are often dumped at the side of the road. They are the animals that also regularly flood into rescue centres and receive no veterinary care.

No one as far as I'm aware is talking about banning that group of people from having horses.....
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If you are comparing two groups of people, I think to look at why they do what they do. Racing is a very traditional sport, it was very slow to make changes in horse management and some management is detrimental to the horses well being, in the TB industry the 1st January birth date for a start completely skews the breeding cycle.
The maturity of the horse when worked, you could argue that a pony being put in a cart at two, a May or June foal. is less damaging than bringing in for training when an adult is on it's back, how ever light the adult is. Its bad long term the majority of the animals, or else we would all be doing it. Time costs money in racing just because of the turnover.
The dumping issue. When dumping of TB's goes on it is just less visible, turning a horse out of training unrugged out in a field, or leaving at the sales to be disposed of, and in my experience if they can cut corners they will do, and that is a stud with a well known name.

I live near the community you speak of, and yes in my opinion they over breed, but a bit like racing its is there tradition, but even they have realised their market has changed and they are trying to breed the mini traditional in pretty colour that is hardy and cheap to keep, that can be worth over £2k. The breeders in IMO are no worse that Welsh breeders who are breeding for four white and blaze. In any set of breeders there are some who see animal welfare as something optional in pursuit of what ever there aim is and unfortunately just because you are well known stud and live in a house its not a guarantee of you morals.

The big difference is money and knowledge. I live near Newmarket, I can see the money involved just at stud level, they have access to the experienced vets and research, you only have to go online and a lot equine research is based on the TB industry. The money made in the industry is huge, and international, I think the pressure of money is the main reason for how it is run. These are not uneducated people.

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The families I know who have traditional coloured ponies, granddad had them, horse management is passed down, the ones I know only have a basic education, some are illiterate. The ones I know their ponies are well cared for, they use they same vet as me, and like my house my neighbours stables are far cleaner than mine. There may be gaps in their knowledge of modern horse care, but they do feed a lot of hay. In some respects they keep their animals how they used to be kept 50 yrs ago where equines lived out, were fed and very little else. In the 70's if a horse was wormed and had its teeth done,you were flash.

There is an assumption that because a horse is on a smart yard its handling experience is better, nearly any TB that I have handled that has come out of training has been head shy or defensive. You walk in some of the stable yards and if you know horses you can feel the tension, and for flat they are mostly in a 12x12 at least 22hrs a day.

Poor welfare is intolrable who ever causes it, but one system is making an aweful lot of money from it, and they have the knowedge to make changes.
 
reynold said:
I think you and I will always disagree on racing I'm Dun.

You are very anti whereas I sit somewhere in the middle. I don't bet - I am interested in the breeding side and also how the dominance of some bloodlines have been detrimental to TB soundness - going right back to Northern Dancer.

I'm not blind to the areas where improvement is needed in racing and had I not seen both improvements and efforts to improve further - and had the GN continued to lose 6 horses in the race every year or had jockeys been allowed to continue thrashing horses over the line (thinking what L. Piggott used to ride like) then I probably would also have stopped watching.

I would also have stopped watching eventing if something hadn't been done about rotational falls and the deaths of both riders and horses. I was at Blenheim many years ago when a top rider was killed and it wasn't good. I can no longer watch top class dressage unless someone highlights a good and kind GP test like Becky Moody's recent win on Jaegerbomb.

As regards racing 2 yr olds I can, without much effort, think of another group of horses of that age (and younger just weaned foals) that a certain un-nameable community ride and use for harness racing on the road. These are the animals that, when dead, are often dumped at the side of the road. They are the animals that also regularly flood into rescue centres and receive no veterinary care.

No one as far as I'm aware is talking about banning that group of people from having horses.....
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Umm, I think you will find they are, and not only that, the police are actively involved in putting a stop to it in this area at least. A pony was removed from here a couple of months ago, they arrest them if they are found anywhere near the areas they use for racing. And then theres people like me, I spend a fair bit of time with traveller kids. With my dogs and with their ponies. I teach them that kindness works better, or try to. Who knows if it will permanently stick, but my little group of kids are very different to when I started working with them. There is absolutely an element of them not knowing any better and as a marginalised group they dont tend to enagage with others to learn about different ways. I could write a phd on traveller culture and their relationship with animals, so this is just a very broad and rough over view.

However, comparing travellers abusing horses to tb racing is probably far more accurate than you think. Except trainers and jockeys do know better and do it anyway. And just because other people abuse horses doesnt excuse racing from abusing horses. How could it?
 
3OldPonies said:
I see another jockey has a ban now for failing to pull up in a timely manner on an injured horse that was subsequently euthanised at vet hospital. 8 days and will miss the Guineas festival. If these stewards can issue a ban for what is basically the same thing, what the F was wrong with those at the National meeting?
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Where did you see this please, would like to read the article?
 
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