Dealers and their tricks to con buyers

Do you have an advert of this horse? Or anything in writing claiming the horse is this or that?
 
No, I was an idiot and all I went on was an internet advert which was taken down shortly after I bought the horse. I didn't print it out so it's gone for ever. It didn't really say much other than phrases like "been there done it all", and "previously owned by vet who has now emigrated". As you can imagine both claims were false.

I have learned an awful lot from this experience. I wish I hadn't had to learn the hard way but I have taken many lessons on board since this fiasco started and I will be much less naive when I buy the next one although I am still incredibly wary of being caught out by other tricks of trade as practised by the less scrupulous dealers.
 
Glad I read this little get out clause. Hmm. I was recently going to look at a promising horse some 3 hrs drive away. The seller had allegedly bought it outright from the owner who had a crippling illness which may well have been true I don't know.

Anyway, when I asked to see decent conformation pic's of the horse 'stripped' and speak with the previous owner the seller stopped calling and I lost interest, funny that.....
 
That's a shame. I bought a horse where I thought there might be an issue in the future and I saved the webpage just incase of any come-back. Horse turned out fine and all was well, but I do tend to cover myself as much as possible.

I don't know what else to suggest unfortunately but I hope it all comes good in the end for you.
 
QR.
Although I feel sorry for all involved, I would like to point out that every seller could possibly be like this, not just a dealer.
I know you have more comeback with a dealer, but when you are buying a horse you shouldnt really approach it in that way.
Personally I think people should take just that little extra time to judge each horse on its merits, and research it properly. Doubtless some tricks would still get past but that would just be unlucky.
A horse is a horse and they cant be diguised from someone who knows how, and takes the time to look properly.
 
The fact that you have been told by other people of the problems thish orse may outweigh the lies she and her staff tell. You asked for a horse for a novice and she failed to provide it and has obviously been totally devious. Have you considered reporting her to the organization that was set up for dealers to be members of -

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=56549

Contact the people who own the website, they may be able to send you a copy of the ad from their backups. Did you look at the site on your PC, you may well be able to retrieve the page from your tempory internet files/local cache depending on your settings.

I would start legal proceedings - they may back down and take the horse back and exchange or refund.
 
[ QUOTE ]
No, I was an idiot and all I went on was an internet advert which was taken down shortly after I bought the horse. I didn't print it out so it's gone for ever. It didn't really say much other than phrases like "been there done it all", and "previously owned by vet who has now emigrated". As you can imagine both claims were false.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you viewed the page on your computer, and have not cleared out your temporary pages recently, a comptent computer person may be able to recover that information - it would make all the difference to a potential claim and is worth looking into
 
That is really sad, and what a shame it's put your hubby off. Maybe you could find a loan horse for a while to restore his faith? I put a horse on loan a couple of years ago and ended up giving him to the people, they loved him so much.
I am sometimes asked to help people with "problem" horses, and sometimes wonder why they brought them in the first place. Not you - sounds like you were well conned! This is the sort of thing that would turn me away from a dealer -
If the place looks wrong you're probably right. You know, if there are loads of horses and ponies that look rough and as if they haven't been there long. Or if you know they have a quick turn over of large numbers, then I think anyone who isn't very experienced should walk away.
I look for horses that seem unusually quiet, this might not indicate doping, but could be dehydration. Some will keep them short of water to keep them quiet. Pinch the skin and see if it bounces back.
Check the mouth and gums, sometimes a soft mouth is created by the horse being left stabled overnight in a bridle and tight side reins.
Watch someone else ride, let them finish their little show, then ask them to ride the horse somewhere else, further from the yard for example. Make sure they trot and canter and maybe jump towards the other horses, not just away.
If the dealer is evasive about vettings it's another good reason to walk away. Like, maybe they will give you an exchange guarantee, but only if the horse isn't vetted before you take it...

Just some of my thoughts anyway.
 
Thanks vicijp. I don't think that my problem was down to not looking properly at the horse. I did look properly and I have, in effect now had him vetted twice, once post sale. On neither ocassion have the vets been able to find anything wrong with the horse and his temperament on the ground is superb.

I know you have an awful lot of experience in the horse world but this horse was only the third one I've ever bought. The first two were fine and this one has got problems so I guess two out of three aint bad for a novice!

Just out of interest, how would you advise me to judge my next potential purchase and research it properly? You can PM me if it is complicated! I really don't want to be caught out again if I can avoid it.

Thanks.
 
This is proving to be a real eye opener!
shocked.gif
I knew of some of the tricks of the trade, but Tinypony has come up with some I wouldn't even have thought of!! I got my last horse through a dealer, previously having bought through word of mouth and at one (gulp) the sales. I tell you, the one I bought at the sales has turned out to be the best one!! Clementine, I really hope your trainer manages to sort your lad out enough for you to either cope with or sell him on. If you are on the lookout again, I'll keep my ears open - I don't live a million miles away from Yorkshire.
 
I wasnt really aiming my post at you specifically, I dont know the history of you buying the horse.
I was just generally saying that a horse should be judged on its merits, not who you buy it off.
Everyone is going to be caught out at some point, so please dont think I was having a go!
My advice to anyone would be dont believe a word anyone says.
For example:
I went to Leominster sales and looked at a 4yo filly. Before I went I checked the breeding (I appreciate that isnt so easy with non TB's), and found that it had been sold as a yearling. So was likely to have been half broken before the sale, broken straight after, and possibly been in training.
The story I was told was that the owners daughter had broken it in and hacked it around last summer, and that it was quiet but very green. The bloke reckoned the horse came to him 3 weeks ago straight from the field, and he ahd just done the same.
Now that might have been feasible, but the shoes were hanging off the horse nd had very likely been on there at least 8 weeks.
My conclusion was the horse was a nutcase, the bloke had tried to sort it, couldnt and wanted rid.
Someone brought that horse for £2k, and yes if it does turn out to be a nutcase they can chuck it up.
I guess my point there would be that the signs were there to be seen, and just because they were'nt doesnt mean the buyers should wriggle out of the sale.
Just re-read and dont think I have explained very well - still seems as though I am having a go! Hopefully you get my meaning.
 
Was the horse not ridden when vetted? I don't understand why this behaviour didn't show up upon vetting and when you had him re-vetted when the vet was giving him the once over.

Surely he displayed this behaviour when mounting for the vet to witness?

I have a friend who is on the other end of the buying/selling fiasco. She sold a very well loved family pony to a lady who claimed she just wanted the pony to teach her children to ride in the school. She was told the pony wasn't particularly great with lorries and tractors. Woman declined to take pony up the road or see her ridden up the road prior to purchase as she wasn't going to take her on a road. If she wanted to hack her, they hacked straight out on to a bridleway.

Anyway....person collected pony and all seemed well. She contacted my friend the next day to say the pony was very unsettled, screaming/neighing constantly. She was keeping her alone! Blamed my friend for her being "clingy". My friend had never kept her alone so how could she know how she'd behave? She told the buyer this. She then gets another text to say the pony is "mental" as they'd hacked her UP THE BUSY MAIN ROAD and she was skittish at anything larger than a van and was furious that she was nervous on the road.

It's not just buyers that are duped. Sellers can be too. My friend is now being taken to court over this pony.

I'm not insinuating that you duped the seller, far from it. I just wanted to point out that buying/selling is a minefield for both parties. I can now understand why some people choose to sell to a dealer.....no comeback.
 
I know I keep banging on about the fraud act but I think you ought to do a bit more digging before you give up.

I spoke to a contact in Trading Standards a couple of weeks ago about this very kind of thing and the new act applies to everybody whether private or trade, she's a retired police sergeant who really knows her stuff and said the act has massive implications for anyone who trades, including horse dealers.

Like the Watcher said you could get someone to go through your hard drive and retrieve the advert, much depends on what it actually says. You could also get the previous owner to put pen to paper about the horse and why it was unsuitable for herand take it from there. I think your equine lawyer has fobbed you off a bit TBH, hope she's not a mate and not offended you!
 
I know this is of absolutely no use to you now Clementine but hopefully will serve as a lifeline for someone else... always get a receipt!

Write your own receipt prior to handing any money over.

so if you saw an ad for a horse described as suitable for a nivice, bomb proof, etc etc, the reciept might read : xxx (horse name age, description) sold on xxx (date) for xxxx pounds (cash). Sold as suitable for a novice, bomb proof, and sound. (plus whatever else is important).


Make two copies, one for you and one for seller.
Get the dealer or private seller to sign them (and you sign them too) , if they refuse you know somethings not right.

You then have back up if after a settling in period the horse turns out to be not as described. Most dealers want their reputation to be covered so will be happy to sign this guarantee.
 
I may have good news for you. The people that host the interent site should have archived copies of the advert as they would back up the site regularly and keep the back ups so you can get a copy from them. Just ask the site for the contact details of the people that host their site.
 
Prilly, I'll PM you later on today when I have more time!

Vicijp, don't worry, I knew you weren't having a go at me. I wish I had as much experience as you of buying horses though. It would make it a lot easier.

Patches, at the first vetting no one rode the horse and it was given a clean bill of health. At the second vetting it was again declared sound and then my trainer tried to get on. The horse was so tense it was unbelievable. He just started to buck like he had begun doing with me after a couple of weeks. The vet immediately turned to me and said "Get rid". I have since spoken to the last owner who had the horse for a week before she decided to sell him on. Again it was fine when she first rode it but it then bucked her off twice in the first week she had it, both times just after mounting. This caused her to lose her nerve totally.

It seems that the horse is replicating its pattern of behaviour with every rider and I am not experienced enough to know what it might indicate.

The previous owner also said that she found the horse very spooky, just like I did and that he was very headshy. Again, I did actually realise that he was headshy before I bought him but I have had a headshy horse previously and she was fine in every other way so that didn't worry me when maybe it should. I was coping fine with this quirk myself but one of the grooms at my trainer's yard informed me yesterday that the horse is now rearing up in his stable when his headcollar is removed so this problem has also worsened unfortunately.

Custardsmum, now I have spoken to the former owner and have a bit more "evidence" I am going to ring the lawyer again on Monday just to see if it changes anything but I don't honestly think it will.

Katy, that is good advice and I will apply it next time I purchase.

PeterNatt, once again I have shown my naivety because I set my laptop to clear my cache memory every 3 weeks so the ad has definitely gone. The site is owned by the equestrian centre from which I purchased the horse so no chance of getting the ad from them and their hosting company wouldn't give it to me either assuming they still had it. I do appreciate very much the trouble everyone has gone to in order to try and help me. Thanks all x
 
Would the vet who advised you to "get rid" not give a report stating the reasons why he believes the horse to be unsuitable?

A veterinary report may be of some use to you in this instance.
 
Yes, you need to get more evidence on paper so definitely get hold of the advert. Get the vet to put his thoughts down too, you have paid for his services after all.

The crux with the fraud act is whether the dealer stood to gain financially or otherwise from the sale of this horse so you need proof of the previous owner paying comission, how much and why she got him to sell it in the first place ideally.

If he's mis-represented the animal or failed to disclose it's faults then I think you have a case but you need to contact Trading Standards.

From what my contact says TS would get the local Police to make the initial arrest then TS would deal with him at the local nick. I don't know if they operate this way in your area if you get no joy I'll give you my buddy's name and she may be able to advise.

I think more people should start pushing this point home, once a few dealers have been caught out like this perhaps they may just clean up their act a bit.
 
I cannot add to the excellent advice already given but just wanted to make the point that if all of those people who get 'duped' by rogue traders were to take legal action then this sort of behaviour would diminish greatly.

As horse lovers we have to take a step back and assume that a horse is like any other purchase. If we bought an unroadworthy vehicle and kept it because we felt sorry for it or sold it on to someone else we would be either a laughing stock or pilloried for our actions. We need to stop 'rescuing' these poor animals and harden our hearts a bit. Easy to say I know but we need to get real here.

So many horses are now coming over from the european meat trade to be sold on to people who think they are getting a bargain when in their own country they have already been deemed useless. Someone is lining their pockets at our expense and potentially risking peoples lives.

Lets hope you can get a TS case against this seller and that it gets a goodly amount of exposure in the press too. There are some very good dealers out there and sadly everyone seems to get tarred with the same brush.
 
Thanks again everyone. The vet wants to help and would write a report stating that the horse has behavioural issues but I have spoken to a dealer friend (see, I'm not anti-dealers per se!) and she said the same as you custardsmum i.e. the dealer can only be held liable in this situation if she took commission from the sale. Sadly, after speaking to the girl on whose behalf the horse was sold, I know that the dealer did not take any commission. All she took was money for the livery bills which this girl had refused to pay because she was hacked off at having been sold an unsuitable horse.

There is no way of retrieving the ad. It has been removed from my hard drive already. My OH is a technical architect - he designs IT systems for multi-national companies - and he has said that there really isn't a way of gettting this info back. Even if I could, bearing in mind that the dealer hasn't taken commission from the sale it wouldn't help me win my case.

I do feel extremely sorry for the horse that I am possibly going to sell him on again. If he was a lorry or trailer you are right Spaniel, I would have no qualms at all about re-selling but it is hard when it is an animal. I am hoping that my trainer can sort him out and I may end up keeping him but I am not sure that he will ever be suitable for my husband unless his behaviour changes dramatically.

There is nothing I would like more than to name and shame this dealer and I would like her to be punished by the law for what she has done to me and the girl before me and doubtless many other innocent buyers but she is smart enough to operate in such a manner that the law cannot touch her.
 
Actually perhaps I didn't make myself understood, my fault I'll have another go.

The dealer does not actually have to make any money, there just has to be is an 'intention' to make a profit from re selling the horse in some way, say the livery bill, for the offence to be complete.

Say for example:

Bodgit and Scarper quote a dear old lady several thousand pounds for fixing her guttering, when it should have been a couple of hundred. She gets a bit more advice from a proper builder and tells Bodgit and Scarper to sling it. They haven't actually got any money out of her but they still comit the offence of making false representation.

I think quite honestly you and the previous owner need to get your heads together, present a united front with the backing of the vet and bring her to book!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I cannot add to the excellent advice already given but just wanted to make the point that if all of those people who get 'duped' by rogue traders were to take legal action then this sort of behaviour would diminish greatly.

As horse lovers we have to take a step back and assume that a horse is like any other purchase. If we bought an unroadworthy vehicle and kept it because we felt sorry for it or sold it on to someone else we would be either a laughing stock or pilloried for our actions. We need to stop 'rescuing' these poor animals and harden our hearts a bit. Easy to say I know but we need to get real here.

So many horses are now coming over from the european meat trade to be sold on to people who think they are getting a bargain when in their own country they have already been deemed useless. Someone is lining their pockets at our expense and potentially risking peoples lives.

Lets hope you can get a TS case against this seller and that it gets a goodly amount of exposure in the press too. There are some very good dealers out there and sadly everyone seems to get tarred with the same brush.

[/ QUOTE ] Here, here! Unfortunately, it is complicated by emotions when we purchase an animal, but you are completely right. I have heard of people taking horses back to a dealer after the dealer has refused to have them back and simply tying it to their gate. Not sure that would help with the legal case and the matter of funds though!
 
I got caught out about 5 years ago and bought a 5 year old TB mare for my novice OH from a local dealer.
She was lovely and I thought I had covered myself by hacking schooling and jumping her.
She didn't put a foot wrong and passed the vetting with flying colours. When we got her home she was a saint to handle but riding her was a different matter she was down right dangerous.
I couldn't stay on her for more than 2 mins she would just throw me back off.
Got a young girl to get on her and although she managed to stay on (just) her schooling consisted of 20 meter circles......backwards!!!
Back teeth etc were fine so we put it down to her menatlity and got back in touch with the dealer only to be told we had to exchange her for one of his others. Fine we thought that was fair until we realised all his others were 3 times the price!!!!

It turns out that he knew this mare very very well. He used her to sell to people looking for a cheap horse would dehydrate her so she behaved when being tried out then when she came back people would spend an extra £2000 on one of his other horses. Complete con artist if you ask me!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top