Dealing with a possessive dog?

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GinaB

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Not one of mine, Beastie is an angel ;) OHs brother has a 12 week old golden cocker bitch (show bred, not working) and they are having issues with it. Puppy is very food possessive, if they try and touch her while eating she growls and shows her teeth. I was always taught to leave a dog in peace while it was eating, but they are making a point of trying to remove its food.

She is also toy possessive, again growling and baring her teeth over them. She's a nightmare for biting as well apparently.

I'm not sure what direction to point them in. I go for reward based training (Jess especially is a sensitive soul, Beastie does whatever the hell she likes) but apparently pup doesn't respond to this so they smack her, including on the nose. They say she reacts aggressively towards this on occasions. Now, I don't agree with smacking dogs but I tend to keep my mouth shut as OHs brother does not take criticism well!

Any websites etc I could point them towards? Makes me grateful for how my dogs behave when they tell me about her!
 
Well if someone kept coming up to me and taking my food away, I'd get aggressive too. And then they smack her on top of that.

Start with an empty bowl and ADD food to it. They are the BRINGERS of good things - you can deal with the taking away later.

You swop a toy for another toy or a piece of food. You don't take something and then hit the dog when it gets annoyed that you took something off it for no reason.

They are being grossly unfair to a very young dog. Dogs don't think like humans, all the dog will see is big people taking away her stuff and then hitting her. Nice.

Tell them to start thinking like a dog, to get a copy of The Culture Clash by Jane Donaldson and read it, to stop messing with their dog's food while it is eating and if they don't take advice, then tell them to rehome the poor thing and get a teddy bear instead!!!
 
How old was the pup when they got her?
How old was she when she was taken away from her mother?
Have they ever owned dogs before?
Have they registered for puppy classes?


In my very honest opinion, this puppy would worry me. It's not normal for a 12 week old pup of any breed to be showing signs of real aggression. I would not advise over the internet, especially for someone who already thinks doing something physical to a young pup is the way forward. I am not saying the pup doesn't need a correction of some sort, but any kind of smacking is only going to end up with this dog getting worse.

I would strongly advise they give the pup to an experienced home and re-think if they are able to be good owners or at least, tell them to get a behaviour therapist in. There is no worse owner than one who thinks they know best and refuses to listen to anyone else. I really hope you can get them to see sense. Poor little mite.
 
If they persist in removing her food, advise them to do it by giving her a substitute - give one, take one, or give a choice of two. And get into the habit of hand feeding her kibble - put it well out of her reach, in several small portions and hand feed her the contents of each portion. That way the food is theirs, not hers, but they choose to give her some. And don't leave food around for her to get possessive over - remove any dishes once she has finished eating.
I had a cocker who was very possessive - don't play tug of war games which she might win, keep toys out of reach and only give her them to play with when it suits and then remove them afterwards (same as the food - THEIR toys). Mine got protective of his bed too so every now an then I would go and sit on it (looks really daft!!!).
Advise them to look at general status stuff - ignore her when entering the house or the room (fussing or speaking asks her permission), deny her access to certain parts of the house (usually upstairs, protected by a stair gate are just 2 simple strategies.
One caveat - if she gets worse not better (after a brief extinction burst) get a behaviourist in - aggression even as possession is something that needs proper assessment and help.
 
CaveCanem said:
Well if someone kept coming up to me and taking my food away, I'd get aggressive too. And then they smack her on top of that.

Start with an empty bowl and ADD food to it. They are the BRINGERS of good things - you can deal with the taking away later.


You swop a toy for another toy or a piece of food. You don't take something and then hit the dog when it gets annoyed that you took something off it for no reason.

They are being grossly unfair to a very young dog. Dogs don't think like humans, all the dog will see is big people taking away her stuff and then hitting her. Nice.

Tell them to start thinking like a dog, to get a copy of The Culture Clash by Jane Donaldson and read it, to stop messing with their dog's food while it is eating and if they don't take advice, then tell them to rehome the poor thing and get a teddy bear instead!!!
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Totally agree CC. If someone tried to takes meal away from me I would stab them with my fork!
 
Pup was got at 8 weeks, don't know what age she was weaned at. It's their first puppy. Her family own Springers, his have owned gundogs in the past (bought trained) and spoilt little Yorkies.

Pup is going to puppy socialization classes. GF takes her and I think she is planning to speak to trainer tonight.

I don't understand removal of food at all. As I said, I've always been taught to leave dogs to eat. Mine will sit and wait for theirs but then they are left.

I haven't seen the aggression, but I've only seen her a couple of times and she was like a typical bouncy pup. GF believes she has an evil streak to her.

The smacking truly distresses me. I have a rescue dog that had the crap beat out of her, she still bares the mental scars from that. I feel so powerless. Any suggestion I give, I get shot down. No point recommending a book, they won't read it but I think I'll get a copy for myself, sounds like an interesting read.
 
It's a bit fluffy in places :p but it's a great book. I'd lend you mine but I think it's already out on loan :p

Can't you just explain it backwards in human terms? Get them to see it from her point of view?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fluffy bunny, I have a big dog who is genetically inclined to be possessive and he still has his moments, but if I had dealt with him like that from a pup, I'd be full of holes!
 
I'm with _GG_ on this one. This kind of behaviour in a puppy so young is unusual. It sounds like she is resource guarding which is a sign of stress and can escallate to more serious problems. They should seek professional help from a qualified bahaviourist. Behaviour modification techniques can work very well in many cases, especially when started early on and applied consistently. Smacking the puppy on the nose is incredibly silly thing to do, they will make her hand shy and they may also get bitten.
 
Well if she's had four weeks of the wrong kind of approach (take, take, take, lost tempers on both sides, smacking, more smacking) I'd say her reactions are to be expected and going to a behaviourist rather than a change of attitude and approach would be a wee bit extreme but that's just my opinion :)
 
CaveCanem said:
Well if she's had four weeks of the wrong kind of approach (take, take, take, lost tempers on both sides, smacking, more smacking) I'd say her reactions are to be expected and going to a behaviourist rather than a change of attitude and approach would be a wee bit extreme but that's just my opinion :)
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I agree, but if they are not willing to listen to family, a behaviourist may be a way to help them understand.

I actually would be inclined to give it maybe 2-3 months after changes are made and if the issues are still there, I would book in at the vets for a full check up.
 
I am interested by the replies here, OP sorry for mini hijack!
I don't take food from my dogs while they are eating but I would like to know that I could if I wanted to. I would also remove a toy or bone if I wanted to, and would expect them to give it up to me, without me giving them something better. I never hand feed anything, it all goes in a bowl and they get fed once a day.
Is that an old fashioned view? What do you do if you wan to go out (say) and dog is eating a bone that you need to take off it - do you have to go and get a biscuit to make it let you do so?
 
I do take food and balls off my dog without offering anything in return, but I had to teach it to him first - there has to be some positive association early with a lot of dogs, rather than *poof* it's gone - then what's in it for the dog to give it up?
If you just walk up and take a bone off a lot of dogs, you'll make the job harder for yourself next time. If you try to take the bone THEN give it aggro for not spitting it out immediately, you'll make it even harder the time after that.
If you walk up, the dog growls at you, and walk away in fear, well, then you have a big problem.

I think breed/type comes into it a lot too. Possession/holding/carrying is innate in a lot of breeds.

The biggest mistake I see (and I have done it myself) is, try to get the ball back, dog doesn't let go, big row, dog eventually relents, human has by this time lost temper and whips the ball away. Well, thinks the dog, what the hell was in that for me, she's DEFINITELY not getting it back next time.

I hand feed my dog the majority of the time or at least let him see me putting the food in a bowl - all food comes from me, not an inanimate object.
 
I did a lot of what's been suggested (add to the bowl and hand feed one handful at a time) with both of mine from the day they arrived. I sat with them and fed them, and left my hand in their bowls while they ate. Neither is food aggressive at all, I could take the food away mid-feed if I wanted to (I don't, I'm vegetarian!).

I've sat on their beds as well! They look at me like I'm mad but will wait for me to get off unless I ask them to sit on there with me. And I restricted access to areas of the house that I don't want to hoover every day ;)

I think it's invaluable to teach 'drop' at an early age, with a reward for doing it. It's so helpful. My little one LOVES a ball, and I'd never have got them off him if he hadn't learned drop. He likes the ball, he likes food more. I'd be working on training this. I like the 'nothing in life is free' idea as well - plenty to google on that if you're interested OP.

Wouldn't smack, but I've poked my pups with one finger before now, together with a loud 'NO' if doing something I don't like. Doesn't seem to have done any harm.

I think it can be resolved but you have to be very strict, consistent and not be afraid to get a behaviourist if this sort of stuff doesn't work. It's easier to resolve while they are young IMHO.
 
CaveCanem said:
Well if she's had four weeks of the wrong kind of approach (take, take, take, lost tempers on both sides, smacking, more smacking) I'd say her reactions are to be expected and going to a behaviourist rather than a change of attitude and approach would be a wee bit extreme but that's just my opinion :)
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Possibly, but no one can know without being a professional and having seen the dog so it's much safer to suggest they get help than rely on the internet.

Also the dog is toy possessive as well and 'a nightmare for biting' so that needs to be assessed (is she just mouthing, is she snaping?).

Finally the owners may be more likely to know and follow a better approach if someone teaches them some techniques. I would expect the behaviourist's job to be to help them change their attitude and approach - who better really? They could go to a trainer but not all of them have experience with more difficult behaviours.
 
It's a gundog breed. John Fisher used to say we breed them to hang on to game then blame them when they do. And breed them to hang on more and more and more.
A "leave" command is really easy to teach. Close a treat inside your fist, and offer the fist to the dog. Ignore any and every attempt to obtain the treat, and ONLY open the fist to give the treat when the dog has looked away, even for a split second. Reinforce the looking away every time and then add the cue "leave". They learn that they get the treat by ignoring it. Works well and importantly generalises well, so that you can teach dogs to leave cats, other dogs, chickens etc (yes!! even a JRT!!). I always teach mine a leave and a down if nothing else
 
Some good advice above but can they answer these questions please?
How often are the feeding? What are they feeding? Is the pup finishing all her food each time?

I ask as we had a 17 week Basset brought in to rescue with similar problems.
Purchased from a puppy farm and they hadn't upped the food quantity from eight weeks. Pup weighed 6kg and was starving!
Two weeks later and 12kg the biting had stopped.
 
Sorry, only just seen your questions. I believe she is getting three feeds a day and the vet has said to increase the volume. She always act ravenous apparently and I did think she was quite light when I last saw her.

However, I have now decided to stay out of it. I have tried to give advice, but they are not interested in it and just continue as they are
 
GinaB said:
....... the vet has said to increase the volume. She always act ravenous apparently and I did think she was quite light when I last saw her.

However, I have now decided to stay out of it. I have tried to give advice, but they are not interested in it and just continue as they are
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The vet's talking nonsense. It's a show bred cocker, and if the problem isn't sorted out now, the dog will probably be put down within the next 12 months.

Apparently ravenous dogs aren't driven by hunger, at all, it's generally the fact that they believe that food will be taken away from them, and they are protecting what they believe to be their property. It's an entirely self centred attitude, and if they're allowed to establish the fact that they have rights, then it will be the start of a slippery slope. Establishing a balance isn't easy with such animals. As you say GinaB, the dog is possessing what's before it, and that's where the problem lies.

As C_C says, keep taking my food away from me, and I might also have something to say. Feeding by hand is one way of possibly stemming the slide to a totally self centred approach, but then so is establishing a firm routine. I've never had such a puppy, so I'm probably thinking out loud, but along with establishing a regime of discipline, I'd also have a dog lying away from its food, until I allow it to move forward and eat. The problem with that is that the over disciplined puppy will eventually throw that back in the owners face.

I suspect that before the unacceptable behaviour becomes TOO established, I'd have that puppy understanding that I will not be defied, and that would happen from the outset. A 12 month old dog may well be beyond the capabilities of the person who's allowed it to gain the upper hand, in the first place.

I'm sure that there are some delightful show bred cockers about, but for those that aren't, I really don't understand why people want them. I've probably been of little help, and for that I apologise!

Alec.
 
There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that show Cockers could be quite high up on the records of most aggressive breeds which I am not surprised about. A lot of Cocker bites go unreported apparently. I would make sure the pup only receives food from your hand and only if she is being gentle. I had the very tip of my thumb bitten of by a Cocker Spaniel several years ago (NOT BY MY TWO COCKERS!) so my ears always prick up when I hear stories like this! I think that badly managed/over breeding is causing these behavioural traits and would agree that it seem a bit young for this pup to be displaying this behaviour so would probably recommend an experienced, established and well qualified behaviourists help (ask vet to recommend).
 
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