Dealing with an inconsistent horse? How can I do things better?

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EveningStar

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So my season thus far:

First show - kept it small 80-90cms no stops.

Second show - still small 90cms. Eliminated in both Show Hunter rounds but double clear in the (tiny) 90cms

Third show - after second show confidence was shot so 80/90cms. Second in the 80cms, just out of placings in the 90cms SJ and then won the 80cm Show Hunter.

4th show - double clear in the 80cms, a rail in the 90cms

5th show - clear 90cm SJ, 3rd 90cms Show Hunter, rails in our first 1m but no stops. 90-1.05 SJ just one stop (completely my fault as I panicked) and a rail

6th show - eliminated in the 90cm Show Hunter, two stops in the next two 1m show hunter classes.

7th show - a stop a round and rails until the last which was clear - 1 90 and the rest 1m

8th show - nearly perfect the first day only a rail and a stop in the practice round. Second day took a particular dislike to one jump and had a stop each round but then went on to fly over it and the rest of the course.

This by the way is a horse that has jumped 1.40 in competition before with his former rider who is a semi professional. He has talent to burn but is inherently lazy with a bit of an attitude problem. If he thinks he can get away with it he will stop. If he is not sure his default button is the stop rather than trusting me when I'm doing everything I can to convince him that he should be going over this jump. He is not particularly spooky as such but when he decides he doesn't like a particular fence he is very hard to convince otherwise. He is inconsistent in that he can absolutely fly around one day, not look at a thing and then the next slam on the brakes when he cant be arsed or it's a bit different. I know it seems like he is stopping as we get higher but honestly I don't think the height bothers him at all and I'm starting to feel really confident at a metre as he jumps so much better as the jumps get bigger - at the 6th show he was eliminated at 90 but proceeded to fly around the metre classes with a couple of silly stops.

I know that much of the time it is my fault - I haven't prepared him enough or I've stuffed up the strides and that is something I'm constantly trying to work on but there are definitely times when he has had a perfect shot to the fence and he has still slammed on the brakes.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what we can work on at home to get him to trust me and be a little more brave? Or even if you have another opinion on what could be the problem (before anyone asks he has his back checked regularly and his saddle fits, I'm pretty sure it's not pain)
 
All exactly the same venue/footing/weather? Same both reins? Better or worse second day? I presume since you say it's not discomfort you've tried him on pain relief?
 
All different venues, different grounds - softer grass/harder grass & different arena surfaces. Will stop on either rein. Sometimes he is worse the first day and better the second and like this weekend great the first day and worse the second. I haven't tried him on pain relief as I guess that is the next option - would you suggest bute?
 
You have to ride every fence every time as if the horse might stop, don't give him the chance to even think about not going.

I had one that would jump a clear round and then go into the jump off and stop at the first fence! Very annoying! But I know she did this if everything wasn't 100% right, she was never generous, or put in a half stride or stand off or forgive the rider anything. I had to have her EXACTLY right and I had to be 100% committed. She did win quite a lot but her confidence needed nursing and she wasn't easy.

Maybe your horse is like this? Just not that generous/confident?
 
Different warm up routines? Any changes in routine like an early start? Anything that's affecting you like travel/tiredness/not eaten properly beforehand?

My old horse would spin out of a fence 9 times out of 10 if I left any door open for him to exit through, even if he was on a perfect stride the majority of the time if I backed off with the leg or dropped my hand he would run out and more often than not drop his shoulder and ditch me, or stand on two legs. Some just aren't as forgiving as others. Have you videoed good and bad rounds and had an instructor watch them to see if there's anything you haven't picked up?

Has anyone else jumped him?
 
My cousin's horse is like this... Is your boy big? Her's is a big lad and never stops at a big fence but totally takes the Michael with little ones - it's almost as if he doesn't see the point in putting the offort in. 90cm and he will have everything down - put it up to over a meter and he sails with air to spare...
 
Orangehorse - I think you've hit the nail on the head a bit. Before me he was very used to being put right at a fence with a rider with very strong legs who never gave him an opportunity to say no. He actually loves jumping and will really lock on to a fence but if there is something to look at or the opportunity to stop he will. He is just not all that helpful and he knows that if he decides to say no I haven't got much hope of making him do it. One of my aims for the winter is to really work on getting my eye for a stride better and working on having a much more stable and strong leg so that he really only has the choice to go over the fence

Stencilface - we tend to stick to a routine with our warm ups and its a fairly short one. I must ask his old rider how much of a warm up he used to have actually as maybe he needs more. He'll stop in a morning class or an afternoon class. He might stop in the first class and then carry on just fine in the next or do well in the first class and stop in the next. I do need to get more video though as I think it will be really useful.

We had another rider jump on him last year duriing a disaster show and he stopped at he same fence that he stopped at with me.
 
EveningStar said:
Orangehorse - He actually loves jumping and will really lock on to a fence but if there is something to look at or the opportunity to stop he will. He is just not all that helpful and he knows that if he decides to say no I haven't got much hope of making him do it.
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Orangehorse said:
You have to ride every fence every time as if the horse might stop, don't give him the chance to even think about not going.
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Believe it or not these are the horses that can really teach you how to ride. Unless you're 100% committed, riding forward with your leg on, they'll say "sorry but you didn't say you wanted me to jump...". Like Orangehorse says you need to ride like they might stop or ride like you've already had a stop. Be consistent with your riding and with your shows, eg. sticking to 90cm until its boring and you know you'll get every fence right. You might only have to do that for 3 or 4 shows. Having someone to video your rounds can also be a great learning tool
 
Fides said:
My cousin's horse is like this... Is your boy big? Her's is a big lad and never stops at a big fence but totally takes the Michael with little ones - it's almost as if he doesn't see the point in putting the offort in. 90cm and he will have everything down - put it up to over a meter and he sails with air to spare...
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I've had a couple of big horses, especially with specific head shapes, who, I am convinced, struggled to see small fences or jump them well if they adjusted their neck position to see the fence. A couple were so anxious they would stop unless ridden in a very specific way, others would bronc on landing or otherwise land awkwardly and be reluctant the next time. In every case they jumped something bigger with less stress even if it was the first fence of a session
 
He isn't big - only just 16hh but anything below about 90cm he doesn't see the point in and will rush - I have no ambition to go over 1m at this stage, I know we need to stick to 90/1m and consolidate and really work on getting things right. He has a serious jump on him and is currently making 1m feel very easy. I do think I get a little complacent at times especially when he is going well so I do need to learn to really ride each and every fence instead of letting him tow me into it and then him duck out at the last minute or slam on the brakes. I do feel that he will run out if he feels he can get away with it but he will actually stop if he isn't sure and that is where I need to be quicker to encourage him over.
 
Sorry, my reply was not to the original thread - your boy doesn't look the type - it was just to the comment about a big horse and stopping.

I agree that some horses need a very strong or specific ride but I'm not so convinced that a horse that normally jumps well, ridden by a competent rider, stops for no reason other than to "take the ****" Horses aren't stupid and they know pretty well we can't force them to jump so if they do and then they don't, there is a reason, even if it's not obvious.

There was a horse in this board who started to stop mysteriously and when the vids went up it was pretty obvious the pattern had to do with a particular combination of lead and turning direction. Months later the horse turned out to have a tumour that resulted in an unsoundness. We tend not to give horses credit for knowing their own bodies.

OP I would probably at least have a word with your vet. Not because I think the horse has something horrible wrong with it, just as part of examining the whole situation objectively.

Otherwise, it's almost impossible to judge without seeing, sorry. All any of us can do is give you the benefit of similar experiences.
 
Thank you, I have had that little niggle in the back of my mind that it may be worth even asking a vets opinion though like I say his stopping has no obvious pattern. He'll stop on grass and on a surface, off the right lead and the left lead, on soft ground, hard ground and good ground, indoors and out, at verticals and oxers, at fill or no fill
 
EveningStar said:
Thank you, I have had that little niggle in the back of my mind that it may be worth even asking a vets opinion though like I say his stopping has no obvious pattern. He'll stop on grass and on a surface, off the right lead and the left lead, on soft ground, hard ground and good ground, indoors and out, at verticals and oxers, at fill or no fill
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Did it start being off a poor stride and then become more unpredictable? Reg went from stopping when the stride wasn't perfect to being very unpredictable.

It turned out to be mild arthritic changes in his hocks, and a resulting loss of confidence in himself which made him become very unpredictable. When they'd been medicated he almost completely stopped stopping overnight...
 
From your OP, he's not inconsistent, he's going downhill.

As you know he's competed before at far higher levels, you can't really put the cause at his door.

Are you having lessons?
 
Lolo said:
Did it start being off a poor stride and then become more unpredictable? Reg went from stopping when the stride wasn't perfect to being very unpredictable.

It turned out to be mild arthritic changes in his hocks, and a resulting loss of confidence in himself which made him become very unpredictable. When they'd been medicated he almost completely stopped stopping overnight...
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How did you pick up on the arthritic changes? Did he have scans?

SkewbyTwo said:
From your OP, he's not inconsistent, he's going downhill.

As you know he's competed before at far higher levels, you can't really put the cause at his door.

Are you having lessons?
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On paper it would seem that way. Realistically he is probably less likely to stop over 80/90 as it is smaller and can get away with a bad stride but 1m is when it starts getting more technical and he has to put more effort to get over the fence. Also things were much worse last season, we are now finally starting to come together though again on paper it doesn't seem that way. Yes i have lessons - though he doesn't often stop in them. I have a clinic this weekend and I know we have lots to work on over the winter. I'm really not blaming him, I know the issue is with me which is why I titled this thread how can I do things better

maccachic said:
Can you video your rounds? Video is a brilliant instructor :)
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This is one thing I'd like to do more of - I compete alone so sometimes it is a bit tricky to find someone who can do it for me but when I can I will
 
EveningStar said:
How did you pick up on the arthritic changes? Did he have scans?



On paper it would seem that way. Realistically he is probably less likely to stop over 80/90 as it is smaller and can get away with a bad stride but 1m is when it starts getting more technical and he has to put more effort to get over the fence. Also things were much worse last season, we are now finally starting to come together though again on paper it doesn't seem that way. Yes i have lessons - though he doesn't often stop in them. I have a clinic this weekend and I know we have lots to work on over the winter. I'm really not blaming him, I know the issue is with me which is why I titled this thread how can I do things better



This is one thing I'd like to do more of - I compete alone so sometimes it is a bit tricky to find someone who can do it for me but when I can I will
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Keen kid who will do it for a few quid??
 
maccachic said:
Keen kid who will do it for a few quid??
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I think for this you need someone pretty competent and confident. There's no point sticking a gung-ho kid on top who doesn't have enough in the ways of skills or knowledge to read what the horse is saying.

ES, it was diagnosed with xrays.
 
Lolo said:
I think for this you need someone pretty competent and confident. There's no point sticking a gung-ho kid on top who doesn't have enough in the ways of skills or knowledge to read what the horse is saying.

ES, it was diagnosed with xrays.
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You video from the ground :)
 
Lolo said:
I think for this you need someone pretty competent and confident. There's no point sticking a gung-ho kid on top who doesn't have enough in the ways of skills or knowledge to read what the horse is saying.

ES, it was diagnosed with xrays.
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Did he show any other symptoms or was it just the stopping that made you get xrays done?

maccachic said:
Keen kid who will do it for a few quid??
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Most kids I know will be happy with a bar of chocolate and the chance to play with an iphone - I'll try this next show!
 
At every back check (he had a serious fall racing so needed a serious amount of work to sort those issues initially, hence the frequent vet-advised physio visits) he had problems that no one could pinpoint the cause of- the saddle was fine, he was working correctly, but every time he wasn't right and needed a fair amount of work. Then in 2012 he started stopping (SJ at 1m, only SJ- XC he never stopped) when the stride wasn't right. Especially if he needed to really collect or take a long one. Went back to basics and sorted a lot of schooling issues, but he still was unpredictable- he lost confidence and so did Al and it all fell apart. And then I read on here about how these were symptoms of hock issues because of charliemouse's horse displaying similar things. And hey presto, he had arthritic changes, had his hocks done, and everything improved.

But it's also worth noting it's taken over a year for them to rebuild confidence over poles and get back into the positive mindset. That was a much harder battle and they're still sticking at 90cm atm to make sure they're really happy despite 2 years at 1m/1.05m...
 
If you have someone near you that does it, i'd be tempted to get a thermal imaging scan of him done, should show up any hotspots (ie arthritis etc) and give you something to say to the vet, I want hocks x raying etc.

I would expect to pay approx £100 for the whole horse being done
 
I'm with Lolo here.... your lad's done a lot of jumping at a fair level by the sound of things... and knowing what we know now... I'd be looking at those hocks as needing some TLC.

BTW thermal imaging didn't pick up any of the problems our ex-racer had. He too has enormous scope but his hocks had caught up with him. Started with him just being a bit ho-hum...ended up with him stopping once or twice XC. He would only really jump if the fences were complex...he would stop at anything easy as if he needed his blood up to attack.

Its worth having a word with your vet before you spent £££££ on Physio/lessons/saddles etc.
 
Lolo said:
At every back check (he had a serious fall racing so needed a serious amount of work to sort those issues initially, hence the frequent vet-advised physio visits) he had problems that no one could pinpoint the cause of- the saddle was fine, he was working correctly, but every time he wasn't right and needed a fair amount of work. Then in 2012 he started stopping (SJ at 1m, only SJ- XC he never stopped) when the stride wasn't right. Especially if he needed to really collect or take a long one. Went back to basics and sorted a lot of schooling issues, but he still was unpredictable- he lost confidence and so did Al and it all fell apart. And then I read on here about how these were symptoms of hock issues because of charliemouse's horse displaying similar things. And hey presto, he had arthritic changes, had his hocks done, and everything improved.

But it's also worth noting it's taken over a year for them to rebuild confidence over poles and get back into the positive mindset. That was a much harder battle and they're still sticking at 90cm atm to make sure they're really happy despite 2 years at 1m/1.05m...
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Thanks Lolo that's really interesting.

wench said:
If you have someone near you that does it, i'd be tempted to get a thermal imaging scan of him done, should show up any hotspots (ie arthritis etc) and give you something to say to the vet, I want hocks x raying etc.

I would expect to pay approx £100 for the whole horse being done
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I live in a pretty isolated spot in New Zealand - I'm not even sure if I'd get xrays done around here

mrussell said:
I'm with Lolo here.... your lad's done a lot of jumping at a fair level by the sound of things... and knowing what we know now... I'd be looking at those hocks as needing some TLC.

BTW thermal imaging didn't pick up any of the problems our ex-racer had. He too has enormous scope but his hocks had caught up with him. Started with him just being a bit ho-hum...ended up with him stopping once or twice XC. He would only really jump if the fences were complex...he would stop at anything easy as if he needed his blood up to attack.

Its worth having a word with your vet before you spent £££££ on Physio/lessons/saddles etc.
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Thanks, yes I think its worth having a talk to the vet and see what options we have to investigate
 
Ah sorry I'm on my phone and didn't realise where your from.

I'm aware it's not fail safe, but it's picked up every problem I've known about in my horses, also proved a very reputable saddle fitter had sold me a saddle that never could have fitted my horse!
 
EveningStar said:
Thanks Lolo that's really interesting.



I live in a pretty isolated spot in New Zealand - I'm not even sure if I'd get xrays done around here



Thanks, yes I think its worth having a talk to the vet and see what options we have to investigate
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Oh didn't realise you were in NZ! If you are in Tauranga at any stage Id be happy to video you.
 
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