Dealing with dangerous horses

The thing I hate about this situation is that normally I would be saying 'it's not the horse's fault, there has to be something causing this, keep looking', and I really believe that, but I just don't see how or where to look, and I really worry that he can injure someone in the meantime.
 
Shilasdair said:
I think your friend is an exemplary owner - and should not feel the slightest twinge of guilt if she can't keep him any longer. If only everyone took so much care of their horses, difficult or otherwise.
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Thank you. I will print this and show it to her as she is in pieces about this, but really I think she has been an amazing owner to this horse whatever the outcome.
 
if all has been done he should be PTS as he sounds like something is causing him a problem so he is not a happy boy. just because nothing shows on scans etc doesnt mean there isnt pain somewhere. i kept telling the docs that i still had hip pain (even though id had a replacement ) for years and nothing showed on mri or ct scans. when they finally decided to operate again they found that the bone had been eaten away but they could only see this once i was on the table.... may be similar for him. the owner sounds like a lovely person and is doing the right thing for him by not sending him anywhere, i just hope your vet will help out..
 
I’d have no qualms about having it PTS. Even though the horse might well be considered ‘healthy’, if that horse ever injured itself and needed veterinary treatment or constant handling for a period of time, it’s fate would likely be sealed anyway. Regardless of whether the horse is healthy, its a very unhealthy situation for those dealing with it. That really should be enough.
I really feel for your friend in this situation.
 
Winters100 said:
Hi All,
I was asked by a friend about this and I am really not quite sure how to advise her. (Oh and yes, it really is a friend, my 2 are very calm and easy).

So the situation is that a lady on our yard has one horse in work and another at grass in another part of the country. I know the horse she has here well and she is a good owner, takes a lot of time and trouble to see that he has a good life.

I did not know until recently that she also has one other. Basically the horse is dangerous to ride, and also cannot be handled safely. Last week I went to visit it with her and witnessed it approach someone who was catching other horses in the field (looking as if he wanted to come too) and then suddenly turn around and kick out. He also bites, and one has to be careful in the stable as if angered he will pin people against the wall. He is 16 years old.

The horse does seem to get on with her, and she can handle it a little (carefully), but she has a small child and is now pregnant again, so is understandably worried.

It would be impossible to find a regular livery yard here for the horse, so he is in a private stable where his box has direct access to the paddock and they just let him out to the field and if it is too cold for him to sleep out then his meal is placed inside and the door shut. If the horse has to be handled she goes, but to make things worse the owners of the place that he is in have started to indicate that they are not keen to keep him. If he is not there I really do not know where he can go.

Vets, specialists and trainers have not been able to help. Among the many vets that she has consulted is the one that I use, a very well known vet and a professor, and when I asked him about the horse he said that neither he nor his colleagues can find anything wrong, but that the horse was known among the local vets to be vicious and had been the subject of discussion between them because they felt that they did not know what else to look for. She has also tried 4 trainers but all gave up on him.

There is one trainer who has now volunteered to take him on and sell him, but this man is well known for incredibly harsh methods and for not caring where the horse goes. The current owner feels that he can be dangerous and does not want to pass the problem on.

Would you support putting an animal to sleep in this case? I am in 2 minds, but I think on balance yes, because if the horse cannot even be easily handled from the ground and has to be sedated for so many normal things (hoof trimming for example), then I don't see a way forward. Certainly I could not handle him.

The situation is complicated, because where we are it is legal to send your horse to slaughter in horrific conditions, but not legal for a vet to put a healthy horse to sleep. She won't send him off on the meat wagon (that actually is still a thing here and it is just heartbreaking how it is done). I have not offered to help as I need to think, but I have a very good relationship with a very well known vet, who I think might feel that this was reasonable and could manage things. But is this a terrible thing to do? When I saw the horse from a distance eating hay in the paddock I felt that it is, but another part of me says that the horse is dangerous and beyond help, and what will happen if he finally does cause a serious injury?

Thoughts?
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If it is illegal for a vet could a slaughter man do it? Presumably if they can in an abattoir they can elsewhere?One of the best people I know is a slaughter man, efficient and very humane.
 
A very sad situation, but I would pts. The owner has given him a good retirement and under the circumstances I wouldn't send him to a trainer or anywhere else. It is time to say goodbye, he has had a good innings considering his issues. Good luck, it is never easy.
 
I think the owner would be more than justified in pts. She has no way of knowing if he’s in pain, despite trying everything. I think it would be more cruel to force this horse into submission when clearly he’s not happy. Assuming the harsh trainer gets somewhere, what then? You’ve still got a horse that can’t live normally because of the risk to people. At 16 I really can’t see any point in prolonging things. I think I’d put him out of his misery as kindly as I could if it were me.
 
Can she find a hunter with a gun licence who would shoot him for her if the friendly vet can't be persuaded that he 'has colic' and an abattoir worker can't come out?

.
 
Firstly, I think your friend is lucky to have a supportive friend like you to help her with such a horrible dilemma. However, I agree that the time has come to PTS. She has done everything she can for him and is not in any way "giving up" on him. I do think you would both find it easier to do this with the help of your vet rather than have to resort to other methods - you also have to live with the memories afterwards and you need to feel peace of mind at all stages. It is time to let him go and move on.
 
My Horse was on a yard and there was another Horse, he was only 4 and hand raised (mum died of colic shortly after he was born) he was incredibly unpredictable and dangerous. She tried different trainers and 2 told her the best thing for him was a bullet. He was handled in a chiffney at all times, but even then it was hard work and it would take 3 to turn him out and sometimes possibly a car (to block him in) sometimes the owner couldn't even get him out the stable to do any jobs. She decided to have him PTS without telling anyone (think she didn't want to be judged, there was no judgement from me anyway!) he would be fine one minute and the next would be trying to bite and kick (and he meant it!) he once lunged over the door and grabbed hold of my cousin and wouldn't let her go. In this case OP, i'd PTS.
 
A few years ago I was there when a friend's horse went down with colic. I had known him 15 years and he was the gentlest most loving soul you would ever wish to meet. He wouldn't hurt a fly. He was my favourite horse that wasn't mine and we had a bit of a bond, he'd often come to me for a cuddle. He'd been in serious pain before with a horrible abcess and came to me for help in the field and was still incredibly gentle. However, in the 1/2 an hour we were waiting for the vet, it was like he was possessed. My friend was pregnant at the time and I wouldn't let her handle him, he was dangerous. It took three of us to catch him and lead him to the yard. He was trying to kick out with his front legs and we had to be very quick to get out of his way, we didn't know which leg was coming next. We managed to get him into my stable (it was closest) and he destoyed my water buckets and hay bar and kicked a hole in the door. As soon as the vet got there and could give him some pain relief he was back to his normal loving, kind temperament. Sadly we couldn't get his pain under control and we had to PTS. Obviously this was extreme and the cause was obvious but it just goes to show what pain can do to them. I'm certain this horse is in pain somewhere, or has something going on that is affecting him badly. Finding a way to end his suffering as well as keeping everyone else safe would definitely be the kindest thing to do.
 
I was attacked by a friend's Shetland stallion a few years ago. I didn't see it coming at all. I was thrown against a fence and managed to fall/scarmble through it. I still have the scars. The huntsman came out the following week and despatched him very kindly while his head was in a bucket of food. The pony was in his thirties and had not long lost his life companion and was menacing all and sundry. He lived next to a footpath and was a bit of an escape artist.
 
Absolutely put to sleep. A friend had a similar beast and it took me, her trainers and a very horrible accident she witnessed to knock sense into her. He was from a rescue and when she asked what she should do they said return him and if they found he was dangerous he would be pts. A few weeks later she found out he had been moved on and put someone in a wheelchair. He was pts not long after and found to have a multitude of problems that physical examinations didn’t pick up. In hindsight my friend should have had him put to sleep and told the rescue he died but she didn’t feel she could. She’s never got another horse.
 
I used to have a horse who would bite with provocation. He was and still is a totally wonderful horse and with me, he'd only bite if i asked for it.

This however is a totally different ball game and for me, she should PTS with zero guilt.
 
Shilasdair said:
I think your friend is an exemplary owner - and should not feel the slightest twinge of guilt if she can't keep him any longer. If only everyone took so much care of their horses, difficult or otherwise.
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I've not fully caught up with this thread but just wanted to say: THIS X100000

It sounds as if your friend has invested no end of time and money into trying to get to the bottom of the issue. I think many people would have given up a very long time ago.
There is no shame in letting this horse be PTS humanely at home. In my opinion this is not a happy horse and honestly I think putting him to sleep would be a kindness. He is a very lucky horse to have found your friend.
 
I feel qualified to write this, I was beaten up by a 13.2 pony when I was sixteen. I worked on a small stud, and had mucked the pony out every day for at least a week. This day I went in and it was agressive towards me, I left the stable but realised I had left the muck fork in the stable, I would get told off, so I went in to get it. Big mistake, it got me in a corner and kicked the poop out of me. I ended up with a black eye, and a perfect hoofprint on my chest just above my heart. I can not remember how I got out of the stable, someone must have heard the noise.
The people that I worked for wanted to dismiss it, I was never even checked over, I as an adult now think I was lucky I was not killed, the thing that saved me from serious injury was she got too close to me. She was turned out and after that to go in a paddock, there had to be two of you one with a whip to keep her off if you went in because she would charge you as soon as you went to the gate.
There are far too many people killed by horses they know, worse case they get a head injury, spend weeks on a ventilater before its switched off, I have looked after them. If a horse starts kicking out at people, get it PTS, no matter what, it is its not worth a life.
I have unfortuately seen horses beaten and never retaliate, I have never seen an animal as agressive as this pony was and she was checked by a vet for ovarian tumour, she came to the stud to be a brood mare and was not that old.
After 40 years, I always make sure that the horse is not between me and the door, and would never put food or a haynet at the back of the stable. Its the easiest way to get your skull caved in.
 
Definitely PTS before he kills or injures someone. A friend had a big hunter type like this once, he would corner people in the field and lunge at them, he was actually very frightening to be near. Strangely, once tacked up, he could be ridden ok. But he was eventually PTS because he was so dangerous on the ground, he must have been 16.2.
 
Reading through, it sounds like a no-brainier and the horse needs to be PTS- physical and mental health are not the same thing and the horse may well be physically ok, but mentally is certainly not.

The quandary sounds more like HOW you're going to achieve PTS in your circumstances, rather than if you should.

As YCBM has said above, I'd look for a hunter. If there are rules that prohibit PTS, I'd not want to implicate a vet in what could be a professionally compromising situation for them.
 
The random flares of temper sound horribly like a brain tumour, which are horribly painful and frightening for tre sufferer in people.

I have heard of them causing wild outbursts in horses, and they're generally only found PM.

I would PTS if I could; would the vet sign off for colic or a sudden injury? Surely there must be some provision for simply worn out old horses who aren't ill but failing?

Keeping him sounds cruel and dangerous, I'm afraid.
 
Winters100 said:
Hi All,
I was asked by a friend about this and I am really not quite sure how to advise her. (Oh and yes, it really is a friend, my 2 are very calm and easy).

So the situation is that a lady on our yard has one horse in work and another at grass in another part of the country. I know the horse she has here well and she is a good owner, takes a lot of time and trouble to see that he has a good life.

I did not know until recently that she also has one other. Basically the horse is dangerous to ride, and also cannot be handled safely. Last week I went to visit it with her and witnessed it approach someone who was catching other horses in the field (looking as if he wanted to come too) and then suddenly turn around and kick out. He also bites, and one has to be careful in the stable as if angered he will pin people against the wall. He is 16 years old.

The horse does seem to get on with her, and she can handle it a little (carefully), but she has a small child and is now pregnant again, so is understandably worried.

It would be impossible to find a regular livery yard here for the horse, so he is in a private stable where his box has direct access to the paddock and they just let him out to the field and if it is too cold for him to sleep out then his meal is placed inside and the door shut. If the horse has to be handled she goes, but to make things worse the owners of the place that he is in have started to indicate that they are not keen to keep him. If he is not there I really do not know where he can go.

Vets, specialists and trainers have not been able to help. Among the many vets that she has consulted is the one that I use, a very well known vet and a professor, and when I asked him about the horse he said that neither he nor his colleagues can find anything wrong, but that the horse was known among the local vets to be vicious and had been the subject of discussion between them because they felt that they did not know what else to look for. She has also tried 4 trainers but all gave up on him.

There is one trainer who has now volunteered to take him on and sell him, but this man is well known for incredibly harsh methods and for not caring where the horse goes. The current owner feels that he can be dangerous and does not want to pass the problem on.

Would you support putting an animal to sleep in this case? I am in 2 minds, but I think on balance yes, because if the horse cannot even be easily handled from the ground and has to be sedated for so many normal things (hoof trimming for example), then I don't see a way forward. Certainly I could not handle him.

The situation is complicated, because where we are it is legal to send your horse to slaughter in horrific conditions, but not legal for a vet to put a healthy horse to sleep. She won't send him off on the meat wagon (that actually is still a thing here and it is just heartbreaking how it is done). I have not offered to help as I need to think, but I have a very good relationship with a very well known vet, who I think might feel that this was reasonable and could manage things. But is this a terrible thing to do? When I saw the horse from a distance eating hay in the paddock I felt that it is, but another part of me says that the horse is dangerous and beyond help, and what will happen if he finally does cause a serious injury?

Thoughts?
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YES, PTS kindest option and the most responsible, it is 16 so even if not in pain, it is learned behaviour and better horse doesnt injure anyone else or itself.
 
Melody Grey said:
If there are rules that prohibit PTS, I'd not want to implicate a vet in what could be a professionally compromising situation for them.
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Along with everyone else, I agree that PTS is the only option left, but I too am concerned about involving a vet in what could be a career ending incident if he gets caught out. But if he can genuinely certify that the horse is often in distress, even if no physical cause can be found, then hopefully he can do the deed legimately.
 
Winters100 said:
But please tell me - what was the food that caused problems. I am not sure if this has been looked at. I will ask..
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It is many years ago (about 30?) and she was on a coarse mix, as was the fashion at the time.
She did usually only have apples in summer but she was on a livery yard where lots of dog walkers passed and there were several public footpaths, so we never knew what she had been given. Things were coming to a head just before Christmas when my sister happened to read an article in 'Your Horse' about a horse with a cough and unexplained lameness which both cleared up when his diet was adjusted.

Our mare had a cough, for which she had seen the vet and been prescribed Ventipulmin several times but without a cause being diagnosed, so we decided to try to at least make her more comfortable and stopped feeding the coarse mix. Her behaviour immediately changed - it was almost like a drug addict going 'cold turkey', she cowered at the back of her box and shook every morning and evening, for 3 days, although she improved when in the field, which was next to the stable.

Her cough cleared up and after 3 days she was like a different horse, back to her usual sweet natured, affectionate self. She no longer was hyper-sensitive to noise and she no longer appeared to have a headache. She was never really predictable because we couldn't stop people feeding her on stuff she shouldn't have. One elderly gentleman just wouldn't accept that feeding her bread was bad for her 'but she likes it' - yes she did, she was addicted to it. Also she was well down the pecking order in her field, so in danger of being kicked while he was handing out goodies. But she was much more comfortable and normally easy to handle, especially after we moved but for some reason passersby always seem to think that they should feed other people's horses.

We worked out that she was reacting to cereals and refined sugar. So, we fed her on alfalfa cobs that were just beginning to be imported from Canada and, later, Speedibeet.

We have had other horses, though that could not tolerate alfalfa and other substances. If it is a possibility that the cause of this horse's behaviour is feed related, I would cut his food down more gradually than we did, I think, because she really was in a state but cut his feed back to just hay and wait for a month to see if there is a difference. It's not always so dramatic as our mare's reaction was.

I hope this helps and if you want any further info please do PM me.
 
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