Dealing with dangerous horses

Snowfilly said:
The random flares of temper sound horribly like a brain tumour, which are horribly painful and frightening for tre sufferer in people.

I have heard of them causing wild outbursts in horses, and they're generally only found PM.

I would PTS if I could; would the vet sign off for colic or a sudden injury? Surely there must be some provision for simply worn out old horses who aren't ill but failing?

Keeping him sounds cruel and dangerous, I'm afraid.
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The vet is perfectly legally able to pts a horse at the owner's request. Unless the owner is trying to claim fraudulently on the insurance, there is no need to sign off for colic or anything else. Apart from anything else, who is going to ask? Some vets might question euthanising an apparently sound, healthy horse but in this case the owner's vet is perfectly well aware of the issues

[Quote = Tiddlypom] Along with everyone else, I agree that PTS is the only option left, but I too am concerned about involving a vet in what could be a career ending incident if he gets caught out. But if he can genuinely certify that the horse is often in distress, even if no physical cause can be found, then hopefully he can do the deed legimately.
Gets caught out by whom? At first i thought you meant danger of injury to the vet, which sounds as if it could be a real possibility but then realised that you didn't mean that.
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Pearlsasinger said:
The vet is perfectly legally able to pts a horse at the owner's request. Unless the owner is trying to claim fraudulently on the insurance, there is no need to sign off for colic or anything else. Apart from anything else, who is going to ask? Some vets might question euthanising an apparently sound, healthy horse but in this case the owner's vet is perfectly well aware of the issues
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OP is in Poland- sounds like the rules are different to U.K.?
 
So I met with my vet, and sadly he says he can't help. Basically said that he agreed that the horse should be put to sleep, but he said that if someone else on the yard made a complaint then it could have very serious consequences for him. He also said that if it belonged to me and he had been the primary vet for a long period that he would find a way, but that in this case he can't help.

So options are limited. I agree a hunter could be a good solution, but I don't think the owner would be able to do this. Also what to do with the body because I suppose this would also be illegal. We are checking about whether it would be legal for a slaughterman to do it but the initial advice was that it is probably not as both the person and the premises must be licensed..

I just cannot believe how absurd the law is. It would be perfectly legal for her to sell the horse for meat and send it off to be driven to Italy crammed in with other horses, but it is not legal for her to give him a peaceful exit at home.

No one here has any solution other than 'sell him on' or 'just give him to someone', but she and I are adamant that this cannot happen. Quite apart from the heartbreak and risk of injury to the new owner the chances of the horse ending up being sold for meat are very high, and if this happens he will really suffer. If we do nothing we are just postponing an inevitable crisis.

So for now we have no solution. I am checking about Germany, as it is not so far to the border, and if it is legal there I will try to help her to find a vet who would help. Absurd to put the horse through the stress of a 5 hour journey for this, but I don't see any other good solution.

Thank you all for your support. It really makes me feel a lot better, because for me it is very strange to be going to these lengths to do something which although I think it is necessary is also so very sad.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
The vet is perfectly legally able to pts a horse at the owner's request. Unless the owner is trying to claim fraudulently on the insurance, there is no need to sign off for colic or anything else. Apart from anything else, who is going to ask? Some vets might question euthanising an apparently sound, healthy horse but in this case the owner's vet is perfectly well aware of the issues

[Quote = Tiddlypom] Along with everyone else, I agree that PTS is the only option left, but I too am concerned about involving a vet in what could be a career ending incident if he gets caught out. But if he can genuinely certify that the horse is often in distress, even if no physical cause can be found, then hopefully he can do the deed legimately.
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Sadly in Poland there are totally different rules about this:(
 
Scuse me for not reading every post. Aggressive horses are normally created not born. We have a horse here been not turned out due to its life prior to here, so can he dominating to others in field and when they past the stable.

Has she had it scoped for ulcers, tumours etc, also teeth, as I read recently of an aggressive horse which had a tooth over grown penetrating top of roof.
Diet, I have had many horses change their temperament on garlic
Also too much magnesium
I gather this is a gelding so no sistic ovaries or such would affect him
Is it territorial, would he change in individual turnout.
Frustration due to no work, can he not be lunged to give his brain something to focus on
have you had a behaviourist or chiro out
kissing spine, other pain.

I would have him on a laminitic diet, so no strict, soaked hay etc. Gradual change to see if any improvement, also keep him on individual turnout, horse walker to tire him out etc.


As I said , I have not time to read all, but I would get a 2nd opinion vet to do a work up on him, bloods teeth back etc and find out if there is an underlining issue.

I would have to know in my head I did everything possible to find the cause and treat if poss before I made a permanent decision


Good luck in what happens.
 
To me it's a no brainer. It's not a young horse. It has established aggressive behaviour, and the owner not only has a child but is pregnant as well. She should not go anywhere near the horse in case it goes for her. One thing for a fit person to handle, but not a pregnant lady. So sorry that you having such problems trying to do right by him though. Good luck.
 
ILuvCowparsely said:
Scuse me for not reading every post. Aggressive horses are normally created not born. We have a horse here been not turned out due to its life prior to here, so can he dominating to others in field and when they past the stable.

Has she had it scoped for ulcers, tumours etc, also teeth, as I read recently of an aggressive horse which had a tooth over grown penetrating top of roof.
Diet, I have had many horses change their temperament on garlic
Also too much magnesium
I gather this is a gelding so no sistic ovaries or such would affect him
Is it territorial, would he change in individual turnout.
Frustration due to no work, can he not be lunged to give his brain something to focus on
have you had a behaviourist or chiro out
kissing spine, other pain.

I would have him on a laminitic diet, so no strict, soaked hay etc. Gradual change to see if any improvement, also keep him on individual turnout, horse walker to tire him out etc.


As I said , I have not time to read all, but I would get a 2nd opinion vet to do a work up on him, bloods teeth back etc and find out if there is an underlining issue.

I would have to know in my head I did everything possible to find the cause and treat if poss before I made a permanent decision


Good luck in what happens.
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Thanks. Yes, I agree always worth checking all, but I think it has gone a bit beyond that. He has seen many vets including one of the best orthopedic vets in the country, had several weeks in a clinic to try to identify any pain, worked with 4 different trainers......

It is my belief that he has pain somewhere, but I think it may not be possible to find from what.
 
Winters100 said:
So I met with my vet, and sadly he says he can't help. Basically said that he agreed that the horse should be put to sleep, but he said that if someone else on the yard made a complaint then it could have very serious consequences for him. He also said that if it belonged to me and he had been the primary vet for a long period that he would find a way, but that in this case he can't help.

So options are limited. I agree a hunter could be a good solution, but I don't think the owner would be able to do this. Also what to do with the body because I suppose this would also be illegal. We are checking about whether it would be legal for a slaughterman to do it but the initial advice was that it is probably not as both the person and the premises must be licensed..

I just cannot believe how absurd the law is. It would be perfectly legal for her to sell the horse for meat and send it off to be driven to Italy crammed in with other horses, but it is not legal for her to give him a peaceful exit at home.

No one here has any solution other than 'sell him on' or 'just give him to someone', but she and I are adamant that this cannot happen. Quite apart from the heartbreak and risk of injury to the new owner the chances of the horse ending up being sold for meat are very high, and if this happens he will really suffer. If we do nothing we are just postponing an inevitable crisis.

So for now we have no solution. I am checking about Germany, as it is not so far to the border, and if it is legal there I will try to help her to find a vet who would help. Absurd to put the horse through the stress of a 5 hour journey for this, but I don't see any other good solution.

Thank you all for your support. It really makes me feel a lot better, because for me it is very strange to be going to these lengths to do something which although I think it is necessary is also so very sad.
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I would drive him to the UK and have a slaughter man waiting when you drive off the ferry.

There may be a country which is closer where you can do the same without a ferry.
 
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ycbm said:
I would drive him to the UK and have a slaughter man waiting when you drive off the ferry.

The may be a country which is closer where you can do the same without a ferry.
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I agree, but I hope it can be done closer as to drive to Dover is 1000 km so that is quite hard on a horse who does not like to be handled. Such a sad situation.
 
What a horrendous situation! Of it were my horse, I’d be calling a vet who didn’t know the horse and lying to them: if you said that you saw it have a seizure and hit it’s head and now it’s behaviour had changed massively, then it might take a few visits, but I think most vets would come to the conclusion that it had a brain tumour or a nasty epilepsy and should be put down.
your friend sounds like such a wonderful, caring owner. This is a deeply unhappy horse with a poor quality of life and PTS would be a kindness. I wonder if it might have nerve pain as that’s hugely painful, unpredictable and has no test that can find it.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Sorry I hadn't realised that you are in Poland. However if the horse has been to a vet hospital, isn't there a vet there who can do the job?
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Sadly they cannot, because unless they have a diagnosis it is not legal. So no vet really wants to be involved even though they may say privately that they agree with the decision. I have one more to speak to, she is a horse owner herself so I will ask her what she would suggest....
 
Winters100 said:
Sadly they cannot, because unless they have a diagnosis it is not legal. So no vet really wants to be involved even though they may say privately that they agree with the decision. I have one more to speak to, she is a horse owner herself so I will ask her what she would suggest....
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Is this your horse or a friends ?
 
cundlegreen said:
Read the post!
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I have read the post and I’m thinking it’s odd to meet a horse once, that you didn’t know existed before and then take it on yourself to phone round vets to try and get someone to illegally shoot it .....the Op starts by saying she hadn’t offered to help and then spent all this time trying to explain to a bunch of strangers in another country what she’s doing to help ! I see no mention of what the owner wants and I see no way any of us can advise in a situation like this. Something isn’t adding up .....
 
bonny said:
I have read the post and I’m thinking it’s odd to meet a horse once, that you didn’t know existed before and then take it on yourself to phone round vets to try and get someone to illegally shoot it .....the Op starts by saying she hadn’t offered to help and then spent all this time trying to explain to a bunch of strangers in another country what she’s doing to help ! I see no mention of what the owner wants and I see no way any of us can advise in a situation like this. Something isn’t adding up .....
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Yes, I thought people might think it is my horse, but it genuinely is not - happily mine are super easy. I am helping her because I see that she is in a really tough situation. and also that she can't really talk to anyone here about it, because attitudes to this kind of thing are very different here. As an example, when I put my aged and very arthritic dog to sleep the vet actually told me that for him it was too early and he would only advise this when the dog could no longer get up. For me this is far too late as I believe that animals should not suffer this way. I am not heartless, actually that dog came from my own dog program which I ran with the help of vet students (they did a lot of the leg work and I paid for it) had rehomed more than 400 dogs over 3 years. Everyone here is telling her to sell or give away the horse, and I feel really strongly about this for many reasons. I did not offer to help in the first instance as I believe in thinking first, because to back someone up in such a thing is a big decision, but having listened to advice here from many knowledgeable owners and discussing it with her at length I do not see any other way forward, and in this case she needs help.

Oh, and the reason for using a forum from 'another country' is that I am from the UK and my written Polish is poor at best, so I would struggle to explain this issue on a Polish forum.
 
Winters100 said:
Yes, I thought people might think it is my horse, but it genuinely is not - happily mine are super easy. I am helping her because I see that she is in a really tough situation. and also that she can't really talk to anyone here about it, because attitudes to this kind of thing are very different here. As an example, when I put my aged and very arthritic dog to sleep the vet actually told me that for him it was too early and he would only advise this when the dog could no longer get up. For me this is far too late as I believe that animals should not suffer this way. I am not heartless, actually that dog came from my own dog program which I ran with the help of vet students (they did a lot of the leg work and I paid for it) had rehomed more than 400 dogs over 3 years. Everyone here is telling her to sell or give away the horse, and I feel really strongly about this for many reasons. I did not offer to help in the first instance as I believe in thinking first, because to back someone up in such a thing is a big decision, but having listened to advice here from many knowledgeable owners and discussing it with her at length I do not see any other way forward, and in this case she needs help.

Oh, and the reason for using a forum from 'another country' is that I am from the UK and my written Polish is poor at best, so I would struggle to explain this issue on a Polish forum.
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There has to be an argument though that if you live somewhere that old or injured horses end up going for meat, then why not this one ? It’s different here, where people have a choice but I fail to see what alternative the owner has unless she wants to keep the horse ?
 
Winters100 said:
Yes, I thought people might think it is my horse, but it genuinely is not - happily mine are super easy. I am helping her because I see that she is in a really tough situation. and also that she can't really talk to anyone here about it, because attitudes to this kind of thing are very different here. As an example, when I put my aged and very arthritic dog to sleep the vet actually told me that for him it was too early and he would only advise this when the dog could no longer get up. For me this is far too late as I believe that animals should not suffer this way. I am not heartless, actually that dog came from my own dog program which I ran with the help of vet students (they did a lot of the leg work and I paid for it) had rehomed more than 400 dogs over 3 years. Everyone here is telling her to sell or give away the horse, and I feel really strongly about this for many reasons. I did not offer to help in the first instance as I believe in thinking first, because to back someone up in such a thing is a big decision, but having listened to advice here from many knowledgeable owners and discussing it with her at length I do not see any other way forward, and in this case she needs help.

Oh, and the reason for using a forum from 'another country' is that I am from the UK and my written Polish is poor at best, so I would struggle to explain this issue on a Polish forum.
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Hi winters,
I'm Polish - I could help you with that if you'd like to give it a go.

Very sad story indeed, I had no idea we had these laws in place
 
I can totally understand not putting a huge amount of detail on an open forum if what you and your friend are considering, while best for the horse, will put them and the vet in a grey area legally.

It does sound like the horse has something seriously wrong with it - and I really hope you can find a workable solution to put him down peacefully. I'm so glad passing him on or the horrific long journey with the meat wagon have been ruled out.
 
bonny said:
There has to be an argument though that if you live somewhere that old or injured horses end up going for meat, then why not this one ? It’s different here, where people have a choice but I fail to see what alternative the owner has unless she wants to keep the horse ?
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Several of us are suggesting possible alternatives Bonny. It isn't just 'going for meat', it's going for meat with a particularly nasty pre-death and death. And the answer to your question is because the owner loves it.

Would you do it to an animal you love without fighting to find an alternative?

.
 
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bonny said:
There has to be an argument though that if you live somewhere that old or injured horses end up going for meat, then why not this one ? It’s different here, where people have a choice but I fail to see what alternative the owner has unless she wants to keep the horse ?
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No, we could never do this to the horse, I would not be part of that. If it came down to this or driving the horse ourselves to a country where he could be humanely put to sleep we would 100% take the horse ourselves. They travel long distances crammed in, injuries are common, and I really doubt that they are kindly treated when they arrive. Despite all the problems she loves the horse. Of course I do not even know him, but I would also not do this.
 
ycbm said:
Several of us are suggesting possible alternatives Bonny. It isn't just 'going for meat', it's going for meat with a particularly nasty pre-death and death. And the answer to your question is because the owner loves it.

Would you do it to an animal you love without fighting to find an alternative?

.
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I don’t live in Poland, if the OP is right then that’s what happens or do you think this aggressive horse is the only one that anybody loves ?
 
bonny said:
I don’t live in Poland, if the OP is right then that’s what happens or do you think this aggressive horse is the only one that anybody loves ?
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Just because other people accept putting a loved horse on a meat wagon, would you allow it to happen to yours without a fight? I'd steal a gun and shoot it myself before I'd let that death happen to one of mine.

.
 
ycbm said:
Just because other people accept putting a loved horse on a meat wagon, would you allow it to happen to yours without a fight? I'd steal a gun and shoot it myself before I'd let that death happen to one of mine.

.
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No, I’d probably leave it in the field where it is now, rather than shooting it or sending it for meat which as we have no clue what the owner wants is maybe what’s going to happen. It’s everyone else that’s so keen to find a way to end the horses life and we know nothing about the owner or their feelings on how much they love the horse, or not !
 
Winters100 said:
As an example, when I put my aged and very arthritic dog to sleep the vet actually told me that for him it was too early and he would only advise this when the dog could no longer get up. For me this is far too late as I believe that animals should not suffer this way.
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Polish vets clearly don’t believe that it’s ‘better a week too soon than a day too late’, then :(. Is it the vets themselves who are hung up on this, or the authorities? I couldn’t keep a pet or horse in a country with such inhumane and draconian diktats.

Don’t worry about Bonny’s input, she can safely be ignored, she just likes to wind folk up especially on PTS threads.
 
bonny said:
No, I’d probably leave it in the field where it is now, rather than shooting it or sending it for meat which as we have no clue what the owner wants is maybe what’s going to happen. It’s everyone else that’s so keen to find a way to end the horses life and we know nothing about the owner or their feelings on how much they love the horse, or not !
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You'd leave a horse behaving dangerously and exhibiting many signs of being disturbed and in likely pain unhandled in a field until it's close enough to death for a vet to put it down.

Poor horse.

.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Polish vets clearly don’t believe that it’s ‘better a week too soon than a day too late’, then :(. Is it the vets themselves who are hung up on this, or the authorities? I couldn’t keep a pet or horse in a country with such inhumane and draconian diktats.

Don’t worry about Bonny’s input, she can safely be ignored, she just likes to wind folk up especially on PTS threads.
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What do you suggest then ? A change to how people view pets in Poland ? Until that happens I see no other answer than keeping the horse who for all we know can live out his days in his field ? My input is no more or less relevant than anybody else’s, there doesn’t seem to be an easy answer ?
 
ycbm said:
You'd leave a horse behaving dangerously and exhibiting many signs of being disturbed and in likely pain unhandled in a field until it's close enough to death for a vet to put it down.

Poor horse.

.
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I’m not in Poland and I have never met the horse or know anything much about him but yes, I would leave him as he is rather than send him away for meat but then I’m a sentimental Brit like everyone else on this thread !
 
bonny said:
No, I’d probably leave it in the field where it is now, rather than shooting it or sending it for meat which as we have no clue what the owner wants is maybe what’s going to happen. It’s everyone else that’s so keen to find a way to end the horses life and we know nothing about the owner or their feelings on how much they love the horse, or not !
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I think the thing is Bonny that there has to be a sensible plan in place that does not involve the horse suffering. Then whether she makes the final decision now, later or not at all is up to her. But in my opinion if the horse is just left in the field it is just delaying a crisis which will happen either by the horse injuring someone, or the people who own the land just saying that they are unwilling to keep it. My friend wants a solution, but part of her says that it is the kindest way, and the other part says that wanting to put the horse to sleep makes her a terrible person. At the moment she says that she wants to pts, but does not see how. Whether she changes her mind is her own decision.

My aim is to give my friend a sensible option and to assure her that in my eyes it is not a wicked thing to do. My personal view is that he should be pts, but it is not my decision to make. I think the final decision can only be made once we have a sensible way of doing this, but to me doing nothing and leaving the horse is quite risky. Frankly I think it will come to the horse having to be pts, because every other option that we discuss seems unworkable, and also because both of us believe that he has pain but it just cannot be identified.

I don't think that people here are "so keen to find a way to end the horses life", they just, like me, do not like the thought that an animal could injure someone or could end up suffering a trip to the slaughterhouse.
 
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