Dealing with dangerous horses

Tiddlypom said:
Polish vets clearly don’t believe that it’s ‘better a week too soon than a day too late’, then :(. Is it the vets themselves who are hung up on this, or the authorities? I couldn’t keep a pet or horse in a country with such inhumane and draconian diktats.


Truthfully I don't really know where this comes from. Now I think about it I have known a few instances of dogs which have been kept alive far longer than I would have kept them going, and these had good and caring owners, not neglected just too old to have a reasonable standard of living. The attitude seems to be that when it is their time the dog will crawl off to the bottom of the garden and die, and that this is the natural way. Of course it is, but I believe something different, and I would like my dogs to have a full and good quality life for as long as possible and then be humanely pts before suffering horrendous pain.

I had not been aware of the rule about horses until recently, and when I heard about it I didn't really believe it at first, but it really is true. To me it is nonsense, and also has a high risk of putting animals in danger of neglect. No one can tell me what happens in case someone simply cannot afford to keep a horse and it is not an animal who can be sold or given away, but I suppose it just gets in worse and worse condition until some charity takes it. But there are different attitudes. When I was doing the dog rescue we were slated for routinely spaying female dogs when we took them in, even if they were pregnant (obviously not late stages). But the thing is that it is easy to criticize while doing nothing to help the situation yourself. We knew how hard it was to find good homes for dogs of unknown breeding, and the cost of doing that, which could otherwise be used to help dogs who were already alive.

This is a very difficult situation, but what I do not want to do is to be hearing in 3 or 4 months that there is nowhere for the horse to go, that the owner is too far along in her pregnancy to handle him, and that he ends up going off on the meat wagon because no one has thought to help her put an alternative plan in place.

Like Bonnie I am also sentimental about animals, but sentimentality has a place, and its place is after you have made sure that they have what they need and are not suffering.
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Thinking round the problem - I don't suppose there is any UK vet you know well enough to ask to travel out to you? Have no idea about the ethics of this but just thinking of ways it might be possible without having to travel the horse.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would research the laws extremely carefully, as what OP's vet is saying just doesn't make sense. Interesting that another Polish poster doesn't know about this law.
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I agree, to me it makes 0 sense, but we have researched it, both with other vets and with a lawyer, and this is the situation. My opinion is that it is probably something left from the old days, designed to prevent waste by forcing people to send the horses for slaughter rather than pts, horse meat and live horses for slaughter are, I am told, quite big exports. I suppose it is not widely known as most people pts with a recognised and provable medical condition, but sadly it is there and we just have to find some way to deal with it.
 
Trouper said:
Thinking round the problem - I don't suppose there is any UK vet you know well enough to ask to travel out to you? Have no idea about the ethics of this but just thinking of ways it might be possible without having to travel the horse.
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We did discuss this. I don't know any UK vets well enough, but I do know a few in Norway. Problem is that they would then be breaking the law, so I can't ask them.
 
I don't think a vet would be willing to go to Poland and break the law there. I can't think of a solution, bar asking someone who's used to shooting large animals to do it. They wouldn't be inclined to break the law either though.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would research the laws extremely carefully, as what OP's vet is saying just doesn't make sense. Interesting that another Polish poster doesn't know about this law.
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It's a common view in strongly religious countries which value sanctity of life not to euthanase sick animals,. It's normal in Moslem countries, for example, and Poland is strongly Catholic. It may be their veterinary association rather than the law, which would explain why it can be sent to a meat slaughterhouse, but I can easily believe it.
 
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ycbm said:
Bonny, if you dont think that you have enough information to comment on this thread then FFS please stop posting on it !
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Non of us have enough information, even you ! Do you know if the owner knows this discussion is going on ? We are talking about a horse overseas who the OP met once, that’s all we know and now various people are googling polish vet rules and trying to make sense of it. Plus don’t tell me what I can comment on, it’s rude and I wouldn’t do it to you and you wouldn’t take it well if I did !
 
It was a request, not an instruction. But the irony of you telling me not to tell you not to post is side splittingly hilarious. Why do you keep posting on this thread to tell other people that your opinion is that they don't have anything they can post about?

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ycbm said:
It was a request, not an instruction. But the irony of you telling me not to tell you not to post is side splittingly hilarious. Why do you keep posting on this thread to tell other people that your opinion is that they don't have anything they can post about?

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Post away, it’s got nothing to do with me ! But that goes for everyone, we are all equal ......
 
Arzada said:
The Polish Animal Protection Act 2010 https://www.animallaw.info/statute/poland-cruelty-polish-animal-protection-act#Chapter_10 Putting animals to death may be of interest.

World Horse Welfare were involved in https://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/wp-content/uploads/EU-Equine-Report-Removing-the-Blinkers.pdf. At least 3 Polish organisations took part. It may be worth contacting WHW.
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This was very interesting - thank you. And the report noted that the putting to sleep without a diagnosis is common to several countries. Thanks
 
bonny said:
I’m not in Poland and I have never met the horse or know anything much about him but yes, I would leave him as he is rather than send him away for meat but then I’m a sentimental Brit like everyone else on this thread !
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The horse cannot be left as it is. It is being evicted from its livery yard. Realistically nowhere else I going to want to take this horse on.
 
Firefly9410 said:
The horse cannot be left as it is. It is being evicted from its livery yard. Realistically nowhere else I going to want to take this horse on.
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Sadly Firefly is correct. They have not yet said for sure that they want him gone, but comments about not being sure how long they can cope with him, that they are thinking about retirement etc are enough to make the owner start planning for the future. I know a lot of yards but I simply do not know any who accept such horses - maybe it is possible to find some very poor place that is desperate for clients, but then the horse will probably not be well looked after. Also such places are generally only found in remote areas, so it will not even be possible for the owner to visit the horse often enough to ensure that he is properly cared for. To give you an idea the yard that I am on is very nice, but a long way from a perfect place, and there is a waiting list for boxes. They have no reason to take on a problem horse and risk injuries to their staff. Just to confirm this is not an irresponsible owner seeking to get rid of a problem, if this was the case she would just give him to a dealer or send him on the meat truck.

Our latest thinking is that we will transport him to a clinic in Germany that is recommended by an acquaintance of mine. Have the vet records translated and ask them to look at what has been done and to assess him to see if they think there is anything missed (because it may be clutching at straws, but who knows, maybe there is something). Then if they cannot find anything but observe behaviour that indicates distress they will put him to sleep. If they do not observe such behaviour we have to think of what might be done for him, but knowing the owner well and having seen how unpredictable this horse is I do not believe this to be a likely scenario. My friend in Germany has spoken to her vet who owns this clinic and this is what he suggested as maybe being a possibility, but said that he had to speak to the owner first. Since it is Saturday we could not call him, so on Monday I will meet with the owner and we can call this vet together and try to find a way forward. How we get the horse into the transport is another issue, apparently he used to travel ok but who knows now. Anyway it seems to be the best plan we have for now. I have to stop myself from thinking about a scenario where they find something which is easy to cure and he can be brought back happy and healthy, because I know this is sadly not the likely outcome.
 
bonny said:
Non of us have enough information, even you ! Do you know if the owner knows this discussion is going on ? We are talking about a horse overseas who the OP met once, that’s all we know and now various people are googling polish vet rules and trying to make sense of it. Plus don’t tell me what I can comment on, it’s rude and I wouldn’t do it to you and you wouldn’t take it well if I did !
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Bonny, you are concerned that the owner does not know about the conversation. I did not initially tell her that I had posted about this as I needed to think about what was the right thing to do and whether supporting a pts option was justified and correct in this situation. Since reading advice from many knowledgeable owners and discussing the matter in more detail with the owner I have shown her the discussion, and it has been very helpful in demonstrating to her that there are other ways of looking at things and that not everyone will slate her for taking the pts option in this case.
 
fredflop said:
What ever the method this horse needs to be PTS. I assume There isn’t a horse slaughter house In Poland or a hunt kennels
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No, we don't have hunt kennels here, and the slaughter house is not an option because it would involve terrible suffering for the horse. However hard to tolerate the aggressive behaviour we do not believe it to be a 'bad' horse - in the opinion of both the owner and me the horse is somehow suffering, but we don't know how. We considered taking for MRI of the head, but in all honesty what is the point of spending thousands on something which will either tell us that a) there is a problem and she should pts or b) the problem is not visible on the MRI, but since the behaviour is dangerous he should still be pts. So we will ask the vet to focus his attention on looking for things that can be solved, and for things that may have been missed. If nothing i think the owner will ask for him to be pts, but of course we don't know for sure yet if the horse will be able go there as they first want to talk to the owner.
 
ycbm said:
You are a good friend both to this owner and to the horse.

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Thank you. That is a really nice thing to say.

I really want to help her because I know that these decisions are terrible, and must be even more terrible without a diagnosis. If the horse had a broken leg everyone would be sympathetic and help her, but because it appears to be in good condition and not lame it is looked at in a completely different way.

I remember that it was the same when I had my old dog pts. The vet who treated his arthritis was in a referral clinic in town, and he advised me that there was nothing more to be done. He had been on a cocktail of pills for 2 years and we could no longer control the pain. But the dog hated town, so I told the vet that I would take him home, dose him up for a couple of days and ask a vet from a nearby village to come so he could die peacefully at home. The vet that I used to use in the village was away, so I had to use another, and this one told me that because the dog could still get up it was too soon. I don't believe that it should get to the stage that a dog can't get up, but I was upset so I asked him to leave so that I could think about it. My friend who had recently qualified as a vet, was not yet practicing, but who knew the dog well came and she really helped me. Pointed out that he was suffering and that I should not doubt my decision, because it had not been made with a view to 'getting rid of the dog', but to spare him a horrible end. We got the vet back and asked him to do it. I will never forget that the vet said to me "so you want me to kill your dog?". I will also never forget what this young girl, only just finished her studies said to him "you believe that it is early, but we believe something different. This dog was taken from the shelter when he was already old and has been given some good last years. Now we will give him a good end without pain". I know that some people have questioned why I want to get involved with this. I really appreciated having help at a difficult time in this instance, and I believe that it was the best thing for my dog, because it avoided suffering. This is why I want to help, because having considered it carefully I think it is the best thing for the horse.
 
bonny said:
I’m not in Poland and I have never met the horse or know anything much about him but yes, I would leave him as he is rather than send him away for meat but then I’m a sentimental Brit like everyone else on this thread !
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I think you’re missing the part of the post that says the yard is not happy with the horse and want it to leave soon. This animal won’t be easy to relocate.
 
Am I right in thinking that the reason we have to have horses signed out of the food chain to receive certain drugs is because of an EU directive? This would, therefore, apply in Poland too? If that's the case, how does it square that the only person who can euthanise horses, even if they've had medication, is a slaughterman?
 
So an update - the vet clinic in Germany has agreed to take the horse to see what they recommend. The owner is unsure of her decision - she initially wanted him pts, but now wants to think more, which is fine. It is hard to see how we can find a good place for him to live if it not done, but we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it. Anyway we will transport him there next week and will keep open minds. My gut feeling is that pts is best for him, but of course it is not my decision to make. Thank you all for your support.
 
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