Debate - Does modern worming technique & laminitis have a connection?

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flyingfeet

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I was musing with my family the other night, around 40-50 years ago laminitis and fat horses in general were simply not a problem

My theory was because people didn't worm like they do now and a low level of worm burden my actually help keep ponies thin and prevent laminitis.

So is the prophylactic use of wormers making our horses obese and increasing the cases of laminitis???
 
Interesting theory, 40 - 30 years ago, my pony was never clipped or rugged, no feed given, lived out with a bit of hay in winter, was ridden by all of us - there were 5 kids so worked quite hard. Wormed twice a year with the only wormer you could get. Big field so we did not poo pick.

She did drop weight in winter and in summer turned into a bit of a Thelwell (she was a good old fashioned Dartmoor) but was never sick or sorry and lived until 36.

Never had her back done, teeth checked once a year by vet.

Our arab, dartmoor and exmoor were all kept like this, though the Arab when she got older did have a rug in winter and some barley and linseed boiled up. All lived to ripe old ages with no health problems.

I now use worm counts and worm twice a year - once for tape and once for encysted. I may be very very lucky (shouldn't say this) but I have never had a horse with colic or laminitis. I also only feed fibre products, ensure they have hay or grass at all times, and my horse's are barefoot - very hippy but this suits my beasts. However, I do clip, rug and pamper them in every other way.

Finally I wonder if there is anything to do with the fact that horses that have suffered from laminitis do go on to breed - in the old days ones that had this were normally shot as folks did not have the funds (insurance) to spend vast amounts on vet bills. I read an interesting article about certain lines of welsh ponies that were known to suffer from laminitis and there is the suggestion that is can be hereditary.
 
I don't think it necessarily to do with wormers...more that it is generally not acceptable to see horses ribs and there are so many feeds available these days. Too much pampering!


I actually am not convinced that all horse/ponies are capable of getting laminitis. I think some are predisposed to getting it and some aren't and that those that are, are just waiting for the trigger, whatever that may be. With fatties I think its a certain weight.
I have 2 lami prone ponies and both have a certain weight that they get to when their pulses start and tbh all I have to do (so far) is to keep them well below that weight allbeit with one that means keeping him slightly thinner than most people would like, which is why he had recurrent laminitis for 3 yrs with his previous owner. She would never have allowed him to walk around with his ribs on show.

I also have 2 other natives that have in their time (and I'm not proud) been fat to bursting with no signs of laminitis at all. They are smaller than the two above and were grazed in the same paddocks.
 
Good question.

Or does the use of modern tillage/fertilizer that grass is now treated with (if treated that is) had an effect the increased numbers of horses getting laminitis rather than just the native types or very overweight horses and ponies, a vet commented on this the other week, talking about the different chemicals now used which effects the quality of the grass which obviously effects our horses that are grazing from it.
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I think partially it links in with the general trend of obesity. People are getting fatter, they are eating loads and doing far less. The same attitudes are extended to their animals/pets.

Also, there is an increase in 'soft' people. How many posts do you read on here where responsible owners are doing their best by their laminitis-susceptible animals to be accused of being 'unfair on the horse' by other liveries?
 
There is supposed to be a link with one chemical type (i think its moxidectin or praziquantel) that causes altered glucose metabolism, so is risky in laminitics. Glucosamine is also containdicated for laminitics and this is now widely fed.

Cotswold - i think that you have a point but i believe that its not the whole reason laminitis is increasing. Years ago horses were worked harder, if they ceased to be useful they were normally pts. They were more working animals, less pets. Also, you didnt get as many people owning a horse that couldnt afford one or that had insufficient knowledge as much as you do now days. Now, any old numpty buys a horse, sticks it out on cow grass, rides it once a week and feeds it course mix. They also only have the farrier when the shoes are hanging off, so toes get longer and hence more strain. Just as bad, the amount of people who jump unfit horses amazes me, causing concussion, which may add to the problem if a horse is predisposed to laminitis due to weight/management. On the plus side horses have their teeth done more now, but this means the horse can eat better, adding to the weight issue.

Theresa has a point too, there has to be a genetic predisposition.
 
I would say that some horses are more prone to it than others but surely it comes down to weight and exercise? Too much weight and too little exercise...which is the reason for the increasing incidences of diabetes in humans too?
I have always struggled to keep the weight off my Welshie and in the first few years of having him it was not a problem because he was ridden daily and perhaps that was enough??? But in 2007 he had 7 months off work throughout the spring and summer because I had major back problems that prevented me from walking at times...never mind riding! This lack of exercise and my eye being off the ball led him to get a very mild twinge of laminitis coupled with an abcess...my farrier spotted it as the vet just found the abcess and he said I was very lucky it was so mild and to do something about it now and for the long term to prevent it happening again.
I am now your typical weight checking, weather checking laminitis prevention obcessive and cannot believe that it did not really occur to me previous to his twinge...hard lessons but certainly down to lack of exercise and the weight piling on.
 
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surely it comes down to weight and exercise? Too much weight and too little exercise...



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I've always been "your typical weight checking, weather checking laminitis prevention obsessive" as you put it further down your post and have fed Top Spec Anti Lam as a preventative for years, and yet my slim tbx ridden 5-6 times a week and intentionally on very little grass had laminitis this year.

Even the vet could find no fault in his general condition and was amazed he got it.
 
I think there is a point to the OP post.

Years ago, the majority of people who kept horses, only did so if they had the land and means to keep them. The livery yard situation did not exist to the same extent as it does now.

Horses were worked hard, fed straights, and given grass and roughage. The fertilisers we use on paddocks were not available, horses were not wormed as often, and vets bill were kept to a minimum.

Horse and ponies with laminitis, or symptoms of laminitis, were destroyed, due to the cost of treating the disease. Therefore, the hereditary factors was perhaps eliminated from the chain.

Fortunately, we have better education on horse management and diseases now, unfortunately, this comes with a certain amount of "soft heartedness" that years ago wasn't evident.

Science has helped us understand the disease much better, but, it is still hard to convince owners that their horse and ponies should not be overweight.

As an example, I once sold a horse that a vet described not bad but maybe a little underweight! When I replied, better that than fat and laminitic, he did not reply. If vets do not stress the importance of horses not being overweight, then what hope have people got!!

I wish someone would do a study on whether the disease can be passed on to offspring, as I would be very interested in the findings.
 
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I think that wormers can trigger laminitis, hence why I do worm counting generally and only worm if necessary.

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I don't over worm either. I worm my fit, slim 6 yo spring and autumn and do worm counts in between. His field has not been fertilised in the 3 years he's been in it.

He still got laminitis.
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There has to be a predisposition in my opinion.
 
wouldn't think it was wormers, but over rugging and over feeding would play A part i'm sure....................
 
Ok - it wasn't the wormers causing laminitis

Horses are designed to cope with a parasite burden. So has the effective new wormers and zero worm counts, meant that no worm damage occurs and the gut is too efficient.

Are we too worried about the critters, and instead those who are not high performance competition horses, would benefit from a low number infestation to combat the over feeding and lack of work?
 
i think it's a v good point
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the worms were bascially keeping the horse's weight down whereas now they often have a v low or practiacally none existant burden so weight shoots up.

however - that's probably because stocking rates were such that there was enough space per animal to not allow the worm burden to get too high to create the opposite problem.

as seen in organic systems now with low stocking densities and rotations/cross grazing - farmers are more often than not, not having to worm as the burden has stayed low enough for the animal to cope and stay healthy.

where as on the average livery yard etc now days the need to worm is there due to the sheer number of horses on the ground - and possibly people not poop picking when they really should
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and the wormers are almost doing a far too good a job and thus horses get fat quickly.

interesting debate - i like
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Don't believe that wormers are to blame but I do feel that people feed too much these days - not quantity but when its not really necessary. Feeds these days are full of so many products that in the past we would never feed, wheat products, peas, beans and the worst culprit of all SOY products. Soy is known to cause metabolic problems yet it's still included in the majority of feed mixes.

I actually remember as a kid that I didn't hard feed my ponies at all! Not even in winter - they grazed on a massive paddock with others, with no problems in any season.
 
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