Debate in our family- thoughts?

[scats]

My brother has a Malinois and has used both a prong and a shock collar with her. It’s not my thing and he knows my thoughts on it but unfortunately he likes to shout me down and tell me how little I know (he’s only had a dog for 4 years, but he’s an expert...) so I don’t get into the debate with him.
Today I found out that he met up with my mum and dad and made my mum put a prong collar on her little dog who occasionally pulls my mum. I’ve never had her pull me, but she does seem to do it with my mum. Parents were amazed that she didn’t pull once and despite me explaining that the dog was behaving out of fear or discomfort, my brother just shot me down again... I know nothing blah blah. He then started going on about the brilliance of shock collars and how he can walk his Mali off lead with one on...
Said I wasn’t bothering to debate it as he’s the biggest know it all and is ALWAYS right, but I said if he ever dared put a prong collar near my dogs, there’d be trouble.

He then shot back at me that there is no evidence that prong or shock collars are harmful. So I’m wondering, is there? Can anyone point me in the direction of studies that show they are harmful? Or am I being too soft?

I’m a dog groomer and I trained in TTouch, I do force-free grooming and I don’t believe in getting results with dogs caused by fear.

What are your opinions?

 

[TPO]

Why don't your parents and brother wear the collars and see for themselves how little discomfort or harm they create...

It blows my (tiny) mind that people who "love" their dogs (& horses) are so willing to use contraptions that cause pain and discomfort as a shortcut.

 

[{97702}]

I wouldn’t like to give my opinion of your brother because I would probably get banned and I wouldn’t like to offend you OP, he is a family member after all.....

 

[scats]

I’m totally with you both, unfortunately my brother is someone who is always right. He has this way of making you feel like an idiot when you disagree with him.

He told me that I would not be able to find any studies that proved these things were harmful, so I want to find some (though I know he still won’t have it).

I’m so upset that they put a prong collar on my mums dog, she is the sweetest little thing and so trainable. He has bullied my mum into that as previous conversations I have had with her, she said she’d never use anything like that.

I feel really angry that they have subjected my mums dog to that.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would be furious with them they are awful things, I ask him to wear one for a few hours and see how he feels about it then I would also let your parents read this thread.

 

[Pinkvboots]

A lot of dog pulling problems are usually always the fault of the person at the end of lead, a few sessions with someone showing them how to hold the lead and control the dog normally will rectify the problem.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Studies on how dogs are feeling are sometimes hard to gauge because they often do not take into account environmental factors.
A dog wearing something on grass and a dog wearing something on a laminate floor for example - it might be the surface underfoot that is causing the stress. That's not a judgement on the use of equipment like this, it's just a fact.
Some studies have recorded high levels of cortisol in dogs used as assistance animals in hospitals or schools or dogs waiting in line for agility so it's not really a good comparison. I think these papers may have come from Scandinavia.

For those who have suggested it, some (mostly American, lol) trainers do wear/have worn electric collars for demonstrations/videos online etc.
Human cheek or the fleshy area just below thumb is apparently where you'll feel the most similar sensation to that of a dog's neck. Older collars are wham bam, thank you mam, shock collars, more modern ones feel more like a TENS machine.

IMO most forms of training equipment should only be used by trained people in certain circumstances on certain dogs and introduced over a long period of time/conditioned properly, not available on the open market and just whacked on any old dog for a walk down the street because they cannot be arsed training it properly. For me it is the canine equivalent of throwing on a three ring gag with the rein on the bottom ring (or other instrument of choice) as instant power steering without going through the whys and wherefores.

Unfortunately online videos/questionable social media bods have propagated this image of tools being an instant quick fix and of Malis being a mega-tough breed that need to be adorned in jewellery in order to be walked down the street, coz they're well' ard, innit. I'm sorry that your brother is one of Those Guys.

 

[scats]

Studies on how dogs are feeling sometimes hard to gauge because they do not take into account environmental factors.
A dog wearing something on grass and a dog wearing something on a laminate floor for example - it might be the surface underfoot that is causing the stress. That's not a judgement on the use of equipment like this, it's just a fact.
Some studies have recorded high levels in cortisol in dogs used as assistance animals in hospitals or schools or dogs waiting in line for agility so it's not really a good comparison. I think these papers may have come from Scandinavia.

For those who have suggested it, some (mostly American, lol) trainers do wear/have worn electric collars for demonstrations/videos online etc.
Human cheek or the fleshy area just below thumb is apparently where you'll feel the most similar sensation to that of a dog's neck. Older collars are wham bam, thank you mam, shock collars, more modern ones feel more like a TENS machine.

IMO most forms of training equipment should only be used by trained people in certain circumstances on certain dogs and introduced over a long period of time/conditioned properly, not available on the open market and just whacked on any old dog for a walk down the street because they cannot be arsed training it properly. For me it is the canine equivalent of throwing on a three ring gag with the rein on the bottom ring (or other instrument of choice) as instant power steering without going through the whys and wherefores.

Unfortunately online videos/questionable social media bods have propagated this image of tools being an instant quick fix and of Malis being a mega-tough breed that need to be adorned in jewellery in order to be walked down the street, cox they're well' ard, innit. I'm sorry that your brother is one of Those Guys.

That’s really interesting, thank you. One of the most frustrating things for me is that my brother has actually trained that dog really well at home, without the use of any sort of device. She can do all sorts (she puts my dogs to shame!) so he is perfectly capable of doing it correctly. They had an issue originally with not being able to or feeling comfortable with letting her off lead around children, purely because she would bound up to them playfully and terrify them. I think the use of the shock collar stemmed from wanting a quick fix to that issue, or knowing he could have control in an emergency if a child suddenly appeared. I assume he got the prong collar as she was strong to walk. Again, I don’t know why he didn’t just train her properly, because he actually probably could have done it quite easily.

I feel he thinks he’s better placed to have an opinion about dog training because his Mali does a lot of fancy tricks whereas mine simply know how to sit, stay and give paw... and that’s it. But they are brilliant to walk, excellent off lead and I have no concerns about them around children or other animals, so I must be doing something right.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I mean that's something you can say to him. How does he feel about his own training if the dog is listening to/working for a collar, and not him? I understand presenting an (unintended, but serious) risk to her own or others' safety is a last resort issue, especially where children are involved, but he could have just kept her on a line until he had cracked the recall? Malis are easy to train/quick learners, that's one of their main appeals.

Training is training, tricks are tricks, but competition is proof, lol.

 

[Bellasophia]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words..

https://koreandogs.org/prong-collars/

Shock collars..click on pic and scroll through the arrow To pics.

https://banshockcollars.ca/collar_damage.php

https://banshockcollars.ca/pdf/Can_Shock_Collars_Burn.pdf

ive had many dogs from 52 kg dogue de Bordeaux,42 kg rotweiller, three 22 kg st poodles and terriers ,chihuahuas ,Schnauzer corgi,....etc
all have been trained with kindness not to pull by 5 months..no need for shock or prong collars..my bigger dogs were all successfully CDX trained.

 

[Bellasophia]

Its really NOT ok

 

[Bellasophia]

Quote scats..
”He told me that I would not be able to find any studies that proved these things were harmful, so I want to find some (though I know he still won’t have it).”

Hi scats,,all you have to do is google. Damage caused by prong collars.
You will have many articles ,full of graphic photos ,to begin your discourse with your brother.Good luck.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

If you haven't done it already, every single time he starts to shout at you, tell him that shouting the loudest doesn't make him right, only loud, and that he only does it to try and cover up that he's run out of arguments. Repeat it the next time he starts shouting.
Since I like memes, I couldn't resist adding a few on the subject at the end of this reply.

Anyhow, I really like CorvuxCorax reply, but if you still want some links to studies, this is a study from 2014 based on research done by the University of Lincoln.
Article about the study (written 2014, updated 2016): https://thebark.com/content/latest-shock-collar-research
The study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153538/

An article about a study done in the Netherlands 2004: https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/...inful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r/
Another article which I think is about the same study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016815910300248X


Article (from 2015) about a study concluding that when used properly/correctly, shock collars where not harmful: https://offleashk9training.com/dogtrainingblog/study-on-electronic-shock-collars/

However this UK study concluded that the dog owners most likely to use shock collars where those who had not attended puppy classes, or had gone to a puppy class but only with low attendance: https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-8-93

I think I read something in the later study about that not having been to puppy/dog training classes increases the risk for not being able to use a shock collar properly, but after having read through a few different pages I'm not quite sure where I read what anymore.


Study showing they can be useful to teach dogs not to hunt and kill sheep: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11278032/

Pdf file to a study on some Beagles, the conclusion suggests that poor timing in the application of high level electric pulses leads to a high risk for stress symptoms: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0DQuKBAvlCXbhdwUiMzTri&cshid=1599136922065

 

[KittenInTheTree]

"I don't care that you're into sadomasocism, I just think it's wrong to involve your dog."
"Stop telling me all these weird things about collars, pain, and submission. It's clearly some kind of a fetish."

Obviously said where strangers and/or neighbours can overhear.

 

[Bellasophia]

The Netherlands study made me flinch..
when trainers talk about using an electric collar” correctly“...
it’s like saying a man can use violence in a subtle way as to be acceptable.
...what right have we to inflict an electric shock,or a sharp metal prod to the neck,to get a required response? Even worse to use it on an animal who has no comeback ,no voice to object and who is in our care without any redress.

 

[Bellasophia]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11278032/
a lead would be both 100 per cent effective and kinder to the dog.The sheep would also be thrilled.

 

[scats]

The Netherlands study made me flinch..
when trainers talk about using an electric collar” correctly“...
it’s like saying a man can use violence in a subtle way as to be acceptable.
...what right have we to inflict an electric shock,or a sharp metal prod to the neck,to get a required response? Even worse to use it on an animal who has no comeback ,no voice to object and who is in our care without any redress.

Interestingly, one of my brothers responses was that I don’t know how to use the shock collar ‘correctly’ and if I did, I would realise that they aren’t harmful. He then asked me how I’d use one correctly, to which I couldn’t answer because I wouldn’t use one.

I’ll show my mum some of these articles. Thanks all.

 

[PapaverFollis]

How to use a shock collar correctly?

Put it in the bin.

 

[janem_g]

I don't agree at all with either type of these collars, however some of the comments have made me think, what about an electric cattle prod - they are still used aren't they and surely cows are just as feeling as dogs?

 

[skinnydipper]

I hope this will help you in your discussions with your brother.

Frontiers in Veterinary Science. Front. Vet. Sci., 22 July 2020
Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement

"These findings refute the suggestion that training with an E-collar is either more efficient or results in less disobedience, even in the hands of experienced trainers. In many ways, training with positive reinforcement was found to be more effective at addressing the target behavior as well as general obedience training. This method of training also poses fewer risks to dog welfare and quality of the human-dog relationship. Given these results we suggest that there is no evidence to indicate that E-collar training is necessary, even for its most widely cited indication."

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.00508/full#:~:text=All dogs in the study wore an E-collar,group were active and useable by the trainers.

 

[GinnyWeasley]

Completely ridiculous, i am amazed people think it’s acceptable and helps. It’s like people arguing that it helps with balanced training- no just no. It solves absolutely nothing and causes fear and discomfort. They are also banned in several countries such as New Zealand.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I don't agree at all with either type of these collars, however some of the comments have made me think, what about an electric cattle prod - they are still used aren't they and surely cows are just as feeling as dogs?

I couldn't find an overall average weight for dogs, so I choosed to use the quite popular Labrador Retriever as an overall average dog. According to google an adult Labrador should weigh between 29-36 kg for a male, and 25-32 kg for a bitch.

Compared to that, the average weight of a cow is according to google 1100 kg for a bull, and 720 kg for a cow. To me that difference in weight makes me feel that it sounds like comparing handling a pedal car for children, with handling a tank.

Add to that, a dog shock collar can be used even when the dog is a significant distance away from their owner, whereas I presume that electrified cattle prods can only be used when the animal is quite close to the human using the prod. Which limits the number of situations the prods can be used in.

On the other hand, I presume that the strength of the shock is stronger in an electrified cattle prod, than in a dog shock collar, which, if my presumption is correct, would make the prods worse than the collars.

That said, I don't know about other countries, but in Sweden it is basically only veterinarians that is legally allowed to use electrified cattle prods, and even they should only use them in extraordinary circumstances.
I sadly presume that there is some idiots who might use them illegally, but as far as I know it is not a widespread problem.

By the way, cows are dangerous animals. For example according to this page: https://www.roydswithyking.com/cow-attacks-what-are-the-odds/
Cows killed 74 persons in the UK between 2000-2015, and averagely 3 persons per year was killed by cows whilst at work.

 

[scats]

I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts and links to studies and research, thank you very much. I’ve felt a bit ‘meh’ all day and I think it’s really got to me. Tried to talk to my mum about it but she wasn’t very forthcoming, although I feel that a bit of it might be that she feels a bit ashamed. She was actually hoping that I wouldn’t find out, but my Dad blabbed to me. So I can only take from that that she doesn’t feel comfortable about it, so hopefully she won’t allow that to happen to her dog again.

 

[TheOldTrout]

http://lfs-awp.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2019/01/dog-training-methods-review.pdf

 

[Quoth]

The use of aversives in training a dog is a bit like the use of a sledgehammer to exhume a fossil. Used with care under a specific set of circumstances it can be useful but most of the time it does more harm than good and the long term negative effects may not be readily apparent.

There tends to an implied notion of naturalness or properness among advocates of aversive methods, while more positive methods are characterised as idealised and fanciful. The irony being that most people only get away with adversive methods because the animal has been bred to tolerate. Generally the more primitive the animal the less effective they become.

My own experience of Belgians is that they are not particularly difficult to train, getting one to do a load of tricks is not necessarily evidence of superior methods. If you find someone who can get reliable recall from a kangal on the other hand, then you're in the presence of a wizard. Belgians are quite handler-hard dogs, meaning resiliant to correction, so prong collars probably don't have such a negative impact on them as on a spaniel or mastiff. The biggest issue with mine, who admittedly was a rescue, is that the default reaction when surprised was to snap. If you came up behind her unexpected and touched her she'd automatically snap at you then look sheepish, for that reason they aren't a breed I'd like to keep round kids.

On the other hand though I use flat collars with all of mine which some people would say are also harmful and I should be using a harness. I'll admit to experimenting with choke chains in the past and found them pretty useless. The only time I've seen e-collars used effectively was with gwps , where the ability to communicate with a dog which has an inbuilt tendency to range far ahead and occasionally run off made them a bit of a godsend. Though these where mostly tone and vibration I think.

 

[vmac66]

Shock collars are illegal in Wales.

 

[Bellasophia]

Scats .you should not feel”” Meh..“””more like Hey!

Just remember,you cannot fix stupid,you cannot educate a brick...but you’ve tried.

 

[DressageCob]

The fact electric shock collars have been banned in Wales since 2010 suggests there is a problem with them.

The government in England promised to ban them in 2018 but alas has failed to act.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cruel-electric-shock-collars-for-pets-to-be-banned--2