Debate please....starting a youngster at 3 vs at 4

kc100

kc100

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Now I know this is like holding a red rag to a bull and I'm sure there wont ever be an agreement (hence why I'm posting here and not the tack room!) but I'd love to hear your stories/opinions as I'm a bit torn with that decision for my youngster.

My youngster is 2 and a half, coming on lovely and I've been very lucky to have such an easy youngster - I'm sure he'll test me soon but so far so good. He's a British Warmblood by Teliver Decanter, bought mainly for dressage but also to be sensible enough to be a general all-rounder. Have owned him since he was 1.

I havent broken a youngster before - I've worked on professional yards with youngsters so very used to handling them and dealing with all the fun and games that come part and parcel with youngsters....however the actual breaking part of it is the area I'm not so experienced with. I'll be getting a trusted professional to do the actual backing part of it (a local dressage rider currently at PSG and has broken countless dressage horses) rather than doing it myself as I want someone who is a far better rider than I am to be the one to get all the basics established with him.

But I cant decide whether to start him next year when he's 3 and then turn away over winter to pick him up again at 4, or wait until he's 4...I hear so many different opinions its really hard to know which is right! I guess there is no right and wrong, but does anyone have any experiences with either approach or any rationale for either approach? He was born in May so wont be officially 3 until May next year, so if I were to start him next year it would be in the summer (July/Aug/Sept/Oct) before turning away over winter Nov onwards once the clocks have gone back.

In my mind I'm leaning towards next year (rather than 2017) mainly because he is very sensible and learns quickly, he enjoys the little tiny bits of work I've asked of him (just groundwork obviously) and is pretty mature for his age. Of course this could all change by the time next year comes along and I may rethink that idea, but right now I think he'd cope with it fairly well. I'm in no rush however, I know leaving until 4 wouldnt do any harm either but in terms of a progressive dressage career I'd really like to see what we can achieve together, I've got no interest in young horse classes as he's a forever horse for me so I dont see any logic in pushing him into young horse classes against overfed overworked giant warmbloods from the big studs. We'd have no hope of winning and I wouldnt get any enjoyment out of pushing him that hard either. But I would like to think that at 4 he could be doing a Prelim maybe thinking about a Novice, and in my mind that might be a big tougher to fit in both backing and a little competition experience all within the space of a year.

Starting at 3 seems to be a slower, more gentle approach for a competition horse in my mind - we can just potter about with lots of hacking and occasional schooling before having the winter off - whereas if he's backed in the spring of 2017 there is a lot of work to be done and maybe too much for him to take in?

Anyway that is just my idea, by no means set in stone and would love to hear thoughts and experience from you lovely lot.
 
Have you got a nice horse to do ride and lead with, if so could get him out hacking that way without anyone on board, best of both worlds.
 
I tend to back my warmbloods in the spring of their 3rd year and get them so that they can have a walk and trot round the field with basic steering and stop and go. I then tend to turn them away until late autumn and then repeat the backing process before turning them away again for the winter and then start again the following spring. I find that they don't forget what they have learned and haven't got too big and strong.

Treliver Decanter belongs to a friend of mine and I have been debating sending my mare to him
 
At one time they all used to be started at three, but that was before people had the all weather school and ground the poor devils into the ground doing circles and mind boring hard work, that numbs the brain and damages the joints.
If its hacking out and over varied terrain and not for long at 3/4, which makes work forward going and fun OK and not too tiring I think that's OK. Its trailing to shows where they stand for hours on the lorry and then get hammered on hard ground just for an extra rosette because he has been 'so good'.
I back mine at four because no one wants to buy a newly backed three year old, but they will have had at least two years of life in very small doses.
 
I have broken the vast majority of my young horses as 3 year olds, with the very occasional gangly one left until they were 4 (ran a WB stud for years and had 15 - 20 to break every year). We started work with putting tack on, leading about, etc. when they were 2-rising-3, lunged, backed and rode away when they were 3 in the spring, did very light, babyish things until they were 4 (including a couple of little dressage shows, more for the experience than for the competition) and then gradually eased into proper work when 5. I can honestly say that I have NEVER had one go lame or even be sore during the early work, and my horses had a good reputation for soundness, sanity and success in the competition arena.

I know you'll be told that horses shouldn't be worked until they are 4,5,6, whatever; bones aren't mature, etc. etc., studies show all sorts of things, but I'm going by my experience in a commercial stud over 15 or so years. Of course there has to be some sense and careful observation employed when working young horses (well, all horses actually), and the experience to know when to back off or when to add work, but leaving horses until they are "mature" doesn't improve their training IME, actually the opposite. Later-broken horses have been more difficult mentally, they have more fixed ideas of their place in the scheme of things and can be more argumentative (and also much more likely to use their strength against you).

I see no good reason to leave horses that are normally developed later than 3 years old for breaking.
 
I've done both and as already said, it is all about common sense and the horse will dictate a lot too.

My current girl was started last Christmas as a three year old (southern hemisphere time), and she has been lightly schooled and hacked as time and weather allowed. I've had her out to riding club, baby dressage days, lessons and anywhere else I can get her to. Rides are only about 45 minutes, but the pay off is that now she is four, I have dealt with a lot of the baby stuff and she has a great work base to go on with.

Other horses I have not started until four, and I don't really notice the difference, but they were my endurance horses so different type of horse, and on a different schedule, with different work.
 
Normally I back at 3 in late Spring / early Summer so they can enjoy hacking around the fields as well as some gentle work in the school. Depending on their temperament some will be introduced to poles, logs and ditches others will only walk and trot before they are turned away . However if they are not mature enough, either physically or mentally, then they wait until they are 4 or exceptionally 5, in other words it depends on the individual. My rule of thumb is always to make sure they are happy and confident, never push in the early stages and if in any doubt wait until they're older.
 
I agree with NZJenny - "common sense and the horse will dictat"e. I've backed a lot of youngsters but don't back them and then turn them away. I tend to keep them in light work through the winter if they are 3yr olds but to be honest I don't normally start lunging etc until they are 3yrs 6 mths as a rule. I've rarely had a problem with any of them. I also agree that people can get a bit bogged down with schooling them with countless circles rather than keeping it fun and getting out and hacking when possible
 
Well I backed one at four and the other at five as this was the right time for the horses concerned. However they had done in-hand preparation before backing, worn tack and had been regularly walked out on the roads regularly, both alone and in company.
 
Bonkers2 said:
You can just back at three then turn away for a year. It will be two years before you can do any competing if ysix want to keep him long term.
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Bonkers she can compete dressage at four.

I would always back at three if I've got them at three and I never turn away. I've backed five at three, four at four, one at five, one at six and one at eight and bought others backed at two, three or four, and there was no difference in them after two years other than that every horse is an individual.

I wouldn't school three year olds in an arena for more than a few minutes, I would not lunge a three year old except to check its movement or ever put it on a horse walker.
 
I back at 3 in the spring then leave them off & bring them back the winter before they are 4. I have 1 who i broke in April & she will be started again mid December.
My other 1 I left as she was quite immature but I am breaking her now & she has changed so much. She will get a few weeks here & there as will my other 1 :)
 
You do hear all about the studies about bone fusion and I think people can be completely blinded by science sometimes... what that study does not tell you is that just leaving bones to fuse/mature of it's own accord without the strengthening effect of exercise of the soft tissue often causes more problems... there is study of tb's to show the relative bone density of boxed vs turned out yearlings.. very cruel but it does show that you need to condition the body as a whole. It's not a license to thrash the poor things, but is a reminder to be moderated in your approach... and read a bit about it first :)
 
The leg bones are OK by 3, it is the back and neck that are last to mature. The traditional method of backing at 3 with maybe a bit of pottering around the lanes, and then bringing into work again at 4 has stood the test of time. I think with a big strong horse installing some work ethic isn't a bad thing, but you don't want to do endless circles and boring things.
 
I backed my boy at 3, turned him away for 2 months over the winter then have hacked him once or twice a week on average since then- he is now 4. He is forward thinking and bold. Will start some schooling soon I think. Have done almost none to date as I think hacking is much better for younger minds and bodies.
 
Very much depends on the animal in question. Generally mine are shown lightly in-hand as youngsters and groundwork done at 3-3 1/2 yrs. Late foals (forest bred ones) weren't backed until their 4th yr. My latest one was very lightly backed in the autumn at 4 and then wasn't touched again until May/June this year. She went horribly gangly and very immature. I'm in no rush with her as she won't be longer anywhere ever!!!
 
IMO conditioning as a three and four year old is hugely beneficial. They are developing muscles, bone, balance and brain slowly during that time, which can set them up for a lifetime.

I think too, that if horses are left until they are five or six, people tend to think it's older, therefore I can work it harder. Which isn't true as they will still need that same amount of time to condition. So they either end up overworking an untrained body and mind or your horse is suddenly seven or eight, before it is ready.

I see some young horses doing far too much, but I don't think enough thought is given to the conditioning or legging up process for young horses either.
 
Amicus said:
Have you got a nice horse to do ride and lead with, if so could get him out hacking that way without anyone on board, best of both worlds.
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Afraid not, he's my only horse and while I'm sure someone at the yard wouldnt mind lending me their horse to hack and lead with, I just dont feel overly comfortable doing this on the lanes around our yard - they are a bit narrow so could be a pain in the backside trying to manoeuvre 2 horses out of the way if a car appears.
 
Bonkers2 said:
You can just back at three then turn away for a year. It will be two years before you can do any competing if you want to keep him long term.
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Not sure quite what you mean by this....you can compete BD once the horse is 4 so that will be my plan providing he is taking to work well and is reasonably confident.
 
eggs said:
I tend to back my warmbloods in the spring of their 3rd year and get them so that they can have a walk and trot round the field with basic steering and stop and go. I then tend to turn them away until late autumn and then repeat the backing process before turning them away again for the winter and then start again the following spring. I find that they don't forget what they have learned and haven't got too big and strong.

Treliver Decanter belongs to a friend of mine and I have been debating sending my mare to him
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I specifically wanted a Treliver Decanter baby because of what I'd heard about the temperament and so far its turned out to be a fantastic decision - he is a very sweet, calm and confident horse that hasnt really tested the waters with me despite having him from a yearling. What I loved about my boy when I went to view him at the stud was he was taken away from a herd of 30+ yearlings, put into the indoor school for the first time and instead of calling for the others he had a good trot round then started sniffing the showjumps that were in there; immediately I could tell he was brave and wasnt going to be a big wimpy warmblood! He's been brilliant even in new and scary situations, he takes more or less everything in his stride and is very inquisitive about new things rather than being scared of them which is lovely. He pretty much loads himself (spots the haynet and he's gone!), and anything new I've taught him he's picked up really quickly.

So if you are thinking about it (and know the lady who owns Treliver Decanter) I'd definitely say go for it providing you think he'd suit your mare, I've been thrilled with my boy and couldnt ask for more. He's the perfect amateurs horse who wants to (hopefully!) progress up the levels in dressage, but I'm sure he'd event too as Decanter's offspring are proving successful in that sphere plus my boy's dam is by King of Diamonds so has the jumping bloodlines (and the most amazing hind legs!) if we ever wanted to try that.
 
honetpot said:
At one time they all used to be started at three, but that was before people had the all weather school and ground the poor devils into the ground doing circles and mind boring hard work, that numbs the brain and damages the joints.
If its hacking out and over varied terrain and not for long at 3/4, which makes work forward going and fun OK and not too tiring I think that's OK. Its trailing to shows where they stand for hours on the lorry and then get hammered on hard ground just for an extra rosette because he has been 'so good'.
I back mine at four because no one wants to buy a newly backed three year old, but they will have had at least two years of life in very small doses.
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My plan is definitely to be hacking out and about next year rather than boring him to death in the school; for the backing process we'll get him going in the school but once he's ridden away we'll be out hacking and circles wont be on the agenda until he's 4! Again he wont be out at shows either until he's 4 and that's on the basis he's ready, will play it by ear and see how next year goes. I'm lucky in that when shows do start to be on the radar we have a competition venue a 20 min hack away and he'll only do a bit of low level dressage, so we can have a plod over to the venue, quick warm up then the test, then a nice hack home again - so no standing about for hours, no lorries; just a bit more experience seeing the world with a good hack there and back.
 
Thank you to everyone for the replies - glad to hear all of your experience and it has confirmed what I was thinking originally; to back at 3 next summer but spend the time hacking etc, then off over winter and start again in the spring when he's 4 slowly introducing a bit more work and the odd dressage competition here and there if he's ready.

So far he's taken everything in his stride and is developing nicely, so cant see any reason why he wouldnt be ready next year but of course will re-asses in the spring. As a yearling he was very tall and gangly but has stopped growing upwards for the time being and is filling out more so he looks slightly more like a proper horse now; he's supposed to make 16-16.3 so shouldnt be too much of a giant; if he has a big growth spurt I might change my mind but for now he seems to be doing well and should be ready for next year.

Thanks again for all of the advice, good to know its still fairly normal to back at 3 - the amount of people I hear saying its cruel and you should wait until they're 4 but I dont see what the benefit of that is providing the work at 3 is mainly hacking and very gentle.
 
NZJenny said:
IMO conditioning as a three and four year old is hugely beneficial. They are developing muscles, bone, balance and brain slowly during that time, which can set them up for a lifetime.

I think too, that if horses are left until they are five or six, people tend to think it's older, therefore I can work it harder. Which isn't true as they will still need that same amount of time to condition. So they either end up overworking an untrained body and mind or your horse is suddenly seven or eight, before it is ready.

I see some young horses doing far too much, but I don't think enough thought is given to the conditioning or legging up process for young horses either.
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I agree!
 
Goof was backed in the autumn (Sept) of his 3yo year. He was mature and strong looking(mistaken for a 5/6yo so not a weak or gangly type) and it was obvious his mind was bored and he needed a bit of an office job to keep him thinking.

He will lightly work through the winter as with him being quite sharp and over reactive i think little and often is better than big breaks.

He does 2 x 20min sessions in the school and 1 x 20min walk hack atm.

it really does depend on the horse, you will know by looking at them and their attitude to in hand work and tack etc whether they are ready to crack on or need a break.
 
RE conditioning. I think that it is good, but for me conditioning doesn't equal riding at a young age. A lot of conditioning can be done in-hand or by ponying from another horse. As others have stated turning a youngster out on varied terrain is also a very good thing for them.
 
My general preference would be to back and lightly ride away in the 3yo autumn. More to gauge what you have & might want to plan for as a 4yo. Personally I wouldnt be looking to ride a just backed 3yo through the miserable winter months.
Come spring as a 4yo then for me it's about low key variety, I wouldn't generally be looking to compete a 4yo much or at all until the end of the year or spring of 5yo.
 
ihatework said:
My general preference would be to back and lightly ride away in the 3yo autumn. More to gauge what you have & might want to plan for as a 4yo. Personally I wouldnt be looking to ride a just backed 3yo through the miserable winter months.
Come spring as a 4yo then for me it's about low key variety, I wouldn't generally be looking to compete a 4yo much or at all until the end of the year or spring of 5yo.
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This is exactly what I am doing with my 4yo, she was back August last year (3 days), left till feb
"worked" feb- Oct with month off in July

Now is out and will be till feb time
 
Last two I broke were a 3 year old mare, 3 going on 12 - bossy little know it all madam :wink3: and Boxer was 4 and a couple of months, he wasn't ready mentally and didn't jump a fence until he was 5.

My current horse is 2 and very chilled. I'll send him away to be broken July 2018 (his 4th birthday) I don't bounce anymore !
 
I've got two little one who will be four next year. They can both be bitted and one has done some very minor lunging and long reining with a cub saddle on. The other is more complex (he's a mule!) and I'm still trying to get him used to the idea of the hosepipe to wash his feet.

We are having an arena put in in the spring, whoop! So I'm hoping to crack on then, going to get my skinny friend to back them :)
 
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