Definition of livestock - help!

[Marigold4]

Fallen stock and safe disposal of dead animals

How to safely and legally dispose of dead farm animals and horses.

www.gov.uk

Thank you. That's really helpful.

 

[Marigold4]

We have similar with our paddock (not really big enough for horses anyway but we did consider it) we asked our solicitor about the covenant being removed for another reason (if we wanted to build on it for example) and she said that we would have to apply to the beneficiaries because the covenant was written a very long time ago…it would be up to them to decide. We would likely need to pay their legal expenses for doing so plus whatever they wanted for the permission if they agreed. Ours also says agricultural, it was our impression horses are not agricultural.

As it stands we don’t want to build on it and it’s only under an acre so not enough for horses anyway…we bought the house anyway as we loved it and keep at livery regardless.

As you say, I may have to apply to the people with the benefit of the covenant to change it - and that will be a long and expensive process! So I'm trying to find a way out of it by nailing down the meaning of livestock to exclude recreational horses. THe property is a dream come true otherwise, although lots of work to be done.

 

[Boughtabay]

Thank you. That's really helpful.

No problem, bit if a morbid way to go about it!

 

[Marigold4]

No problem, bit if a morbid way to go about it!

I'll take what I can get!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

It's empty pasture. The previous owner kept horses on it but that was at least a decade ago and the properties that have the benefit of the covenant have all changed hands since then so I can't guarantee they won't object. They probably don't even know about the covenant but I need to be sure before committing to buying it.

So you have proof of historic use that's helpful.
Was the covenant in place prior to this?

Might also be worth emailing defra for a definition? Just a simple question without explanation.

 

[AmyMay]

Can you indemnify against the covenant?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Can you indemnify against the covenant?

The vendors could do this, better to get them to pay if possible.

 

[Marigold4]

Can you indemnify against the covenant?

I could but if think I would only get money compensation for loss of enjoyment if someone enforced the covenants. So I wouldn't have stables. Having rented all these years and moved 4 times, I want to make sure I have security for my lovely horses for the rest of their days.

 

[nagblagger]

Just googled the question..the lawyers defined it as this.

 

[Marigold4]

Just googled the question..the lawyers defined it as this.
View attachment 132924

That's the definition taken from the Agricultural Tenancies Act though. So I suspect it is specific to that context rather than a general definition of livestock. I'd really like it if that was the full picture, but I can see in other Acts that horses have been included in lists of livestock animals, whether or not they are used for meat etc.

 

[blitznbobs]

The question really is who made the covenant, when was it made and who would it harm if you kept horses … to enact upon a covenant you need to show harm so they are quite difficult to enforce, especially if they are old

 

[Barklands]

There are plenty of specialist agricultural solicitors who will be able to advise - google and opinions from non legally qualified people will just muddy the waters. If you check out Legal 500 that should point you in the direction of a decent specialist solicitor who deal with queries like this all the time without the need of spending £££ on a barrister's opinion.

 

[Bobthecob15]

There are plenty of specialist agricultural solicitors who will be able to advise - google and opinions from non legally qualified people will just muddy the waters. If you check out Legal 500 that should point you in the direction of a decent specialist solicitor who deal with queries like this all the time without the need of spending £££ on a barrister's opinion.

Agree I’d get professional advice that you can quote if there was an issue down the line. Some initial cost but surely cheaper than getting it wrong?

 

[Marigold4]

There are plenty of specialist agricultural solicitors who will be able to advise - google and opinions from non legally qualified people will just muddy the waters. If you check out Legal 500 that should point you in the direction of a decent specialist solicitor who deal with queries like this all the time without the need of spending £££ on a barrister's opinion.

I phoned 10 agricultural solicitors yesterday. 8 didn't answer the phone and 2 said they couldn't help. I'll try again today.

 

[Marigold4]

Agree I’d get professional advice that you can quote if there was an issue down the line. Some initial cost but surely cheaper than getting it wrong?

Agreed. If only I could find one that would help! I'll try again today. I think it might be worth paying the extra £££ for a barrister so that I have something conclusive to wave around if anyone kicks off.

 

[cauda equina]

It would be money well spent IMO if only for peace of mind
In the whole expense of buying/moving it would probably be a fairly trifling sum anyway

 

[Marigold4]

The question really is who made the covenant, when was it made and who would it harm if you kept horses … to enact upon a covenant you need to show harm so they are quite difficult to enforce, especially if they are old

Is that correct though - about having to show harm? Couldn't they get an injunction rather than asking for compensation which would require harm/loss to be proved?

 

[rabatsa]

I am no help but 50 or so years ago friends could not put their ponies on their council allotment as no livestock allowed. No one could keep poultry but they could keep racing pigeons.

Can you not contact the solicitors who put the covenant in place originally to find out the reason. I suspect it would be the nuisance factor, flies, smell and rat attraction that prompted the coventant.

 

[Goldenstar]

You really need to get your solicitor to take the lead in solving this .
If they are not the man for the job you need to move on .
He needs to take advice if it’s outside his speciality and I am surprised he’s left you worried about a good solicitor would have said this the problem I need to take advice blah blah blah .
he certainly should have explained to you about indemnity insurance and if It is a possibility.

I think you are ok and in this context horses are not livestock .

 

[Marigold4]

You really need to get your solicitor to take the lead in solving this .
If they are not the man for the job you need to move on .
He needs to take advice if it’s outside his speciality and I am surprised he’s left you worried about a good solicitor would have said this the problem I need to take advice blah blah blah .
he certainly should have explained to you about indemnity insurance and if It is a possibility.

I think you are ok and in this context horses are not livestock .

He did explain indemnity insurance but I don't want compensation or payment of my legal fees when it goes to court, I want stables!! We are putting the matter back to the Seller's solicitors as they advertised the property "with stables". They are saying livestock does not include horses so we are fine. I'm not sure about that so am making my own enquiries.

 

[Barklands]

I phoned 10 agricultural solicitors yesterday. 8 didn't answer the phone and 2 said they couldn't help. I'll try again today.

I know of two different reputable firms near me you could try - lots of farmer/horsey friends have used them. One has offices all over and the other is based in the north but I expect post covid they would deal remote. Just PM me if you want the info!

 

[Goldenstar]

Recreational horses are not livestock .

 

[Marigold4]

Recreational horses are not livestock .

That's my gut feel. If you can find me some evidence for this, I would be eternally grateful! I have found 3 Acts of P: one says they aren't unless they are farmed for meat, fur etc = agricultural; two say they are but just use the term "horses" and doesn't divide them into agricultural or recreational, just says horses generally.

 

[Boughtabay]

Try and get a statement from the NFU? Or ask them for a contact who could provide you with one?

 

[Marigold4]

Try and get a statement from the NFU? Or ask them for a contact who could provide you with one?

Good idea. I'll give them a ring.

 

[Marigold4]

I know of two different reputable firms near me you could try - lots of farmer/horsey friends have used them. One has offices all over and the other is based in the north but I expect post covid they would deal remote. Just PM me if you want the info!

Have PM-ed you. Thank you.

 

[Marigold4]

I am no help but 50 or so years ago friends could not put their ponies on their council allotment as no livestock allowed. No one could keep poultry but they could keep racing pigeons.

Can you not contact the solicitors who put the covenant in place originally to find out the reason. I suspect it would be the nuisance factor, flies, smell and rat attraction that prompted the coventant.

The covenant was made 30 years ago and the person who got the original covenant put on the property has since died, unfortunately.

 

[honetpot]

Unless it's really cheap I would avoid it, because apart from the neigbours the local council may have an oppion.
All my land apart from the garden is agricultral, it used to be a dairy farm. The council are pretty lose in enforcing it but I do rotate cows on it and perhaps next year I will take a crop of hay off it.
I used to live near land settlement houses, which had five to ten acres for growing veg crops, but most had horses on them but its taken over thirty years to get the owners of the land to push for removal of the covenant. You always get someone who wants to live in the past, I think when they got industrial scale greenhouses on one plot it perhaps swayed oppinion.

 

[Marigold4]

Unless it's really cheap I would avoid it, because apart from the neigbours the local council may have an oppion.
All my land apart from the garden is agricultral, it used to be a dairy farm. The council are pretty lose in enforcing it but I do rotate cows on it and perhaps next year I will take a crop of hay off it.
I used to live near land settlement houses, which had five to ten acres for growing veg crops, but most had horses on them but its taken over thirty years to get the owners of the land to push for removal of the covenant. You always get someone who wants to live in the past, I think when they got industrial scale greenhouses on one plot it perhaps swayed oppinion.

The stables and land have had horses in them and on them for 20 of the 30 years and I can get a statement from previous owner saying that so I think I would be able to fight my corner. The stables are a proper farm building and I think probably had horses in them in the days when horses were used on the farm. They are also attached to the house and house is not listed so think it will be OK from a planners' point for view, but a useful thought. Thank you

 

[Bobthecob15]

How far are you into the purchase? Are you close to the point of exchange? Or are you in the initial stages?

House buying is stressful enough without such uncertainty, I would keep looking while you make the enquiries!