lucretia
Well-Known Member
the full transcript of his statement is here. once again as you trail through all the things said and done, you have to wonder about certain things....http://www.horseweb.de/vs_uk/frame.htm
Denis Lynch, full interview
- Thread starter lucretia
- Start date
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xspiralx
Guest
He sounds pretty genuine to me, and his story is certainly convincing.
I think I'll believe him unless more conclusive evidence comes to the fore.
I think I'll believe him unless more conclusive evidence comes to the fore.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
PMSL this is a first, spiral, being in total agreement isnt it! anyway i keep thinkng of all those millions of reasons the owners of latinus have given him to not piss them off....
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
I don't know what to think. I want to believe him, I really do. But I really wanted to believe Cian O'Connor four years ago too.....
.
.Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
It's worlds apart (IMO!) to C O'C, tho.......his was one of two testing positive in 2004, and to different substances.
His horse tested positive for two drugs used for schitzophrenia in humans, which in effect was to make it rideable.
There was NO reason for him to dope Lantinus to qualify for the individual, the horse's form was superb up to that point.
I remain convinced the labs have probably improved the testing for the games, and that's what caught them all out.
He's open about using a product containing the substance that tested, but it is supposedly FEI test free.
I think it is a terrible shame for him.
His horse tested positive for two drugs used for schitzophrenia in humans, which in effect was to make it rideable.
There was NO reason for him to dope Lantinus to qualify for the individual, the horse's form was superb up to that point.
I remain convinced the labs have probably improved the testing for the games, and that's what caught them all out.
He's open about using a product containing the substance that tested, but it is supposedly FEI test free.
I think it is a terrible shame for him.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Lynch said he was the only one of the four suspended riders who spoke to the media after the story broke. During his press conference he produced a tub of Equi-Block. The label on the product has a specially highlighted piece of information: 'Contains CAPSAICIN. Will not test positive'. Did this not trigger alarm bells for Lynch?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find it so odd that none of the other 3 riders have commented....
You'd think they would also make similar statements....
I must say, if the product makes that assurance on the tub, than I'm sure they could be sued
What a shame for the sport
Lynch said he was the only one of the four suspended riders who spoke to the media after the story broke. During his press conference he produced a tub of Equi-Block. The label on the product has a specially highlighted piece of information: 'Contains CAPSAICIN. Will not test positive'. Did this not trigger alarm bells for Lynch?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find it so odd that none of the other 3 riders have commented....
I must say, if the product makes that assurance on the tub, than I'm sure they could be sued
What a shame for the sport
sunflower
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I remain convinced the labs have probably improved the testing for the games, and that's what caught them all out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite possibly. I still cannot understand why no-one questioned the 'will not test positive' statement by wondering why would that be an issue? Is it a banned substance? Should I check? Especially before the Olympics...
I remain convinced the labs have probably improved the testing for the games, and that's what caught them all out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite possibly. I still cannot understand why no-one questioned the 'will not test positive' statement by wondering why would that be an issue? Is it a banned substance? Should I check? Especially before the Olympics...
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I find it so odd that none of the other 3 riders have commented....
You'd think they would also make similar statements....
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe they have, but in their respective native languages so it hasn't filtered through to us??
I find it so odd that none of the other 3 riders have commented....
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe they have, but in their respective native languages so it hasn't filtered through to us??
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
the full transcript of his statement is here. once again as you trail through all the things said and done, you have to wonder about certain things....http://www.horseweb.de/vs_uk/frame.htm
[/ QUOTE ]
you know I joked that the stuff was in the water jump .......
the full transcript of his statement is here. once again as you trail through all the things said and done, you have to wonder about certain things....http://www.horseweb.de/vs_uk/frame.htm
[/ QUOTE ]
you know I joked that the stuff was in the water jump .......
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
do you know, what bugs me, and it's cos I'm such an old timer, and it never struck me to think about it til I looked on that horseweb site - is that of course now, the betting is big business, right?
Does anyone know the starting prices for Dennis Lynch and ooh lets say Eric Lamaze?
Does anyone know the starting prices for Dennis Lynch and ooh lets say Eric Lamaze?
lucretia
Well-Known Member
good point well presented....
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
I've searched as much as I can and can't find the betting returns.....what companies were standing the bets?
There is no legal betting in HK barring their tote, but there are serious underground bookies. The Chines also have a scarily huge betting problem, but would they have the knowledge to use that substance?
I still think it's a mistake..........
There is no legal betting in HK barring their tote, but there are serious underground bookies. The Chines also have a scarily huge betting problem, but would they have the knowledge to use that substance?
I still think it's a mistake..........
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Poor guy, I think he sounds ULTRA genuine.
One question though....and one that riders should ask themselves too...why is it called EquiBLOCK if it doesn't do any harm/change a horse/etc???
One question though....and one that riders should ask themselves too...why is it called EquiBLOCK if it doesn't do any harm/change a horse/etc???
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
I thought that - 'I use EquiBLOCK to loosen my horse up'?! What do the actual directions say it's for?
digger2
Well-Known Member
Various product descriptions thanks to google, even stumbled on a US iron man forum where they were discussing using it on themselves yes the horse version!!
"Equiblock Daily Treatment
Part Number: MIRA0300068
Weight: 1.12 lbs
Topical pain reliever ?specifically formulated to treat chronic pain caused by old injury flare-ups or arthritis related issues perfect for older horses. all natural capsaicin dilates the blood vessels to feed nutrients to the affected area.
Product Details
Shake well and massage liberal amount to the region of specific pain or injury circle entire joint where applicable. reapply up to three times daily for two weeks thereafter once daily or as needed. ?wear disposable gloves or wash hands thoroughly.
Pint
Capsaicin .025%
Horse care - Equiblock Pain Relief
Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. Safe effective and easy to apply. Temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain.
Description provided by the manufacturer or retailer"
"Equiblock Daily Treatment
Part Number: MIRA0300068
Weight: 1.12 lbs
Topical pain reliever ?specifically formulated to treat chronic pain caused by old injury flare-ups or arthritis related issues perfect for older horses. all natural capsaicin dilates the blood vessels to feed nutrients to the affected area.
Product Details
Shake well and massage liberal amount to the region of specific pain or injury circle entire joint where applicable. reapply up to three times daily for two weeks thereafter once daily or as needed. ?wear disposable gloves or wash hands thoroughly.
Pint
Capsaicin .025%
Horse care - Equiblock Pain Relief
Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. Safe effective and easy to apply. Temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain.
Description provided by the manufacturer or retailer"
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
From three different adverts that I found.
Topical pain reliever �specifically formulated to treat chronic pain caused by old injury flare-ups or arthritis related issues perfect for older horses. all natural capsaicin dilates the blood vessels to feed nutrients to the affected area.
and this
Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. Safe effective and easy to apply. Temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain
and more definitively this;
Equi-Block topical pain reliever for the temporary care of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, neuralgias, simple backache, strains and sprains of ligaments and tendons, curb and splints in horses.
Ingredients:
Active Ingredient: Capsaicin (0.025%)
Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Chamomile Extract, Carbomer 940, Polysorbate 20, Triethanolamine, Propyl Gallate, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, Fragrance.
This product contains natural products and is subject to color change over time.
Directions:
The key to using Racehorse Strength Equi-Block successfully is that it must be applied to the exact area of lameness. Apply just enough to cover affected area and apply evenly. Apply to both sides of a joint where applicable (i.e., if applying to a hock rub in front, sides and back of hock). This gives maximum results. Apply to affected area not more than 3-4 times daily, for up to 7 days. Wash hands after applying.
Warnings:
For external use only. Avoid contact with eyes and mucous membranes. If Equi-Block gets in eyes, flush thoroughly with water. Do not apply to broken or irritated skin. Do not bandage. Do not apply to unaffected areas. Discontinue use if excessive irritation occurs. Do not use other than directed. If condition worsens, discontinue use and consult a veterinarian. Keep this and all drugs out of the reach of children. For animal use only.
Interesting, as if used the way that the doubters have suggested, ie to sensitize the skin on the legs, that would apparently be pointless as it appears to be a pain reliever to an extent.
Everything suggests that what Denis Lynch says is correct.
Used the same way as an athlete would use a liniment. One internet site has now discontinued it, whether or not in light of all this I don't know.
Poor guy.
Topical pain reliever �specifically formulated to treat chronic pain caused by old injury flare-ups or arthritis related issues perfect for older horses. all natural capsaicin dilates the blood vessels to feed nutrients to the affected area.
and this
Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. Safe effective and easy to apply. Temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain
and more definitively this;
Equi-Block topical pain reliever for the temporary care of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, neuralgias, simple backache, strains and sprains of ligaments and tendons, curb and splints in horses.
Ingredients:
Active Ingredient: Capsaicin (0.025%)
Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Chamomile Extract, Carbomer 940, Polysorbate 20, Triethanolamine, Propyl Gallate, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, Fragrance.
This product contains natural products and is subject to color change over time.
Directions:
The key to using Racehorse Strength Equi-Block successfully is that it must be applied to the exact area of lameness. Apply just enough to cover affected area and apply evenly. Apply to both sides of a joint where applicable (i.e., if applying to a hock rub in front, sides and back of hock). This gives maximum results. Apply to affected area not more than 3-4 times daily, for up to 7 days. Wash hands after applying.
Warnings:
For external use only. Avoid contact with eyes and mucous membranes. If Equi-Block gets in eyes, flush thoroughly with water. Do not apply to broken or irritated skin. Do not bandage. Do not apply to unaffected areas. Discontinue use if excessive irritation occurs. Do not use other than directed. If condition worsens, discontinue use and consult a veterinarian. Keep this and all drugs out of the reach of children. For animal use only.
Interesting, as if used the way that the doubters have suggested, ie to sensitize the skin on the legs, that would apparently be pointless as it appears to be a pain reliever to an extent.
Everything suggests that what Denis Lynch says is correct.
Used the same way as an athlete would use a liniment. One internet site has now discontinued it, whether or not in light of all this I don't know.
Poor guy.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
half the trouble is that there are so many thins that test, its starting to get hard to keep top class horses really feeling great. like any human athlete, there are loads of things you would like to do before and especially after a contest to maximise recovery, not because the horse is a cripple but becuse like human athletes they need a certain amount of after care.
linament rubs/massages are as old as the hills for assisiting horses and people to warm up before a competition or a serious workout and aliviate any stiffness after. last month i worked for a showjumper who competed in athens and who is competing internationally as we speak, who has the horses legs and backs massaged pre any jumping, even at home. one of the horses has some scar tissue on a hind leg (not a jumping injury, from an accident) he is quite sound but is now a bit old and so its especially important we do all we can for him before and after. they all got massaged with the same product in both places, though it was designed for limbs, and you would hardly want to 'sensitise' their backs now would you?
people use things not always as they were intented or as they say on the packet because of the testing situation. anusol (cream for piles) dead good for sore mouths, preventing as well as curing (not always from bad hands, we all know ones that pull like trains) but you cant use it. Sudocream, how can a BABIES nappy rash cream be performance enhancing, and it was dead good for preventing chapped heels when having to work/jump on very wet sand arenas but it tests presumably for a tiny amount of steroid. dermobian is another, treating a small wound isnt performance enhancing, half the time the horse doesnt even know it has one, but it will know if the thing gets infected. a leg can blow in a few hours and ruin a horses chance of being passed fit at a vet check, when simply being able to apply the right topical ointment would have prevented the whole drama. so you do look for alternatives and you do take note when a packet says does not test. things that do test include the completely innocent products mentioned above. if savlon said does not test on the packet (cos it doesnt!) would you stop using it or worrying if it had a banned but untestable substance in it? of course you wouldnt, you just thank the lord there is still an antiseptic you can use without a vets fee attached to it.
linament rubs/massages are as old as the hills for assisiting horses and people to warm up before a competition or a serious workout and aliviate any stiffness after. last month i worked for a showjumper who competed in athens and who is competing internationally as we speak, who has the horses legs and backs massaged pre any jumping, even at home. one of the horses has some scar tissue on a hind leg (not a jumping injury, from an accident) he is quite sound but is now a bit old and so its especially important we do all we can for him before and after. they all got massaged with the same product in both places, though it was designed for limbs, and you would hardly want to 'sensitise' their backs now would you?
people use things not always as they were intented or as they say on the packet because of the testing situation. anusol (cream for piles) dead good for sore mouths, preventing as well as curing (not always from bad hands, we all know ones that pull like trains) but you cant use it. Sudocream, how can a BABIES nappy rash cream be performance enhancing, and it was dead good for preventing chapped heels when having to work/jump on very wet sand arenas but it tests presumably for a tiny amount of steroid. dermobian is another, treating a small wound isnt performance enhancing, half the time the horse doesnt even know it has one, but it will know if the thing gets infected. a leg can blow in a few hours and ruin a horses chance of being passed fit at a vet check, when simply being able to apply the right topical ointment would have prevented the whole drama. so you do look for alternatives and you do take note when a packet says does not test. things that do test include the completely innocent products mentioned above. if savlon said does not test on the packet (cos it doesnt!) would you stop using it or worrying if it had a banned but untestable substance in it? of course you wouldnt, you just thank the lord there is still an antiseptic you can use without a vets fee attached to it.
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
How do they take the samples?
Isn't he saying he's using it on the horse's back, whereas they're saying the illegal use is on legs?
One would think they would swab specifically, as it seems one use is legitimate and the other (may be) dodgy.
Isn't he saying he's using it on the horse's back, whereas they're saying the illegal use is on legs?
One would think they would swab specifically, as it seems one use is legitimate and the other (may be) dodgy.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
sadly this particular product lika a great many others is transdermal which means even topical application will mean a positive blood and urine sample though often at lower levels
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
It is transdermal, so the tests are blood and urine. I imagine that it gets into the system from whatever part of the body you apply it.
The back area may possibly be more receptive (and this is pure speculation, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) as that is how you introduce the six-week fly repellants to horses cattle etc, and also how you apply Frontline, Advantix etc.
The back area may possibly be more receptive (and this is pure speculation, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) as that is how you introduce the six-week fly repellants to horses cattle etc, and also how you apply Frontline, Advantix etc.
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Sudocream, how can a BABIES nappy rash cream be performance enhancing, and it was dead good for preventing chapped heels when having to work/jump on very wet sand arenas but it tests presumably for a tiny amount of steroid.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh the sudocream! That is such a pile of pooh that it tests! It's really REALLY annoying, as sand arenas (in the case of dressage horses, endless, endless blooming sand arenas) in the wet are the bitter end and sudocream works really well. I think we used to have one that didn't test, which did work. Just not as well.
Sudocream, how can a BABIES nappy rash cream be performance enhancing, and it was dead good for preventing chapped heels when having to work/jump on very wet sand arenas but it tests presumably for a tiny amount of steroid.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh the sudocream! That is such a pile of pooh that it tests! It's really REALLY annoying, as sand arenas (in the case of dressage horses, endless, endless blooming sand arenas) in the wet are the bitter end and sudocream works really well. I think we used to have one that didn't test, which did work. Just not as well.
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
can anyone explain WHY sudocreme tests? I never did understand that one????
lucretia
Well-Known Member
exactly so you look for alternatives. we started using sudocream when plain old zinc and caster was deemed testable ( a good few years ago), udder cream worked as well, but apparently also tests though one might woner for what and at what levels because of the dnager of it getting onto the milk supply, someone found out sudocream worked the same way so we started using that.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
to get rid of the rash it contains a small smount of a steroid, like most creams for that sort of thing
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
Ahh, I see. That makes sense.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
i think you would have to use quite alot of it though to get a performance enhancing result..........! which is why you would think that some substances should be zero tolerance e.g. bute and others would need to exceed certain thresh holds. but i suppose they think that unless its zero tolerance someone accused will always aget out it
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
What baffles me about the whole thing is that EquiBlock specifically markets itself as a pain relief agent, and the FEI prohibited substances list specifically states that prohibited substances include
Agents which could influence performance by relieving pain , sedating, stimulating or producing/modifying other physiological or behavioural effects, including... (bold is my addition - link to web page is http://www.fei.org/Rules/Veterinary/Documents/AnnexIII-EquineProhibitedList.pdf )
So why on earth would you think it was ok to use it??! Surely the very fact that it promotes itself as pain relieving might make you think that the FEI would be working flat out to find a way of testing for it?
Agents which could influence performance by relieving pain , sedating, stimulating or producing/modifying other physiological or behavioural effects, including... (bold is my addition - link to web page is http://www.fei.org/Rules/Veterinary/Documents/AnnexIII-EquineProhibitedList.pdf )
So why on earth would you think it was ok to use it??! Surely the very fact that it promotes itself as pain relieving might make you think that the FEI would be working flat out to find a way of testing for it?
showjumper1
Well-Known Member
.....And it specifically says it contains Capsaicin which is on the banned list.
Why would you use a product that states that it contains a banned substance? I would not expect the rider to know the list of banned substances but team vets should do and all products should be checked by them to avoid this sort of problem.
I do feel very sorry for Denis Lynch if he and his team did not realise but it seems a completely avoidable mistake to me.
Why would you use a product that states that it contains a banned substance? I would not expect the rider to know the list of banned substances but team vets should do and all products should be checked by them to avoid this sort of problem.
I do feel very sorry for Denis Lynch if he and his team did not realise but it seems a completely avoidable mistake to me.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
QR.
There used to be certain levels of painkillers allowed, I was around when the bute tolerance was dropped from two sachets to one (I'm approximating here, but that is roughly what it was). I'm not sure what the current state of play on that is, Lucretia you'll have a better idea then me.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use a product that states that it contains a banned substance? I would not expect the rider to know the list of banned substances but team vets should do and all products should be checked by them to avoid this sort of problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see your point if he picked up on a new product, but if you have been using it for years, and tested as often as Lantinus has been, with negative results, why on earth would you change your regime.........
There used to be certain levels of painkillers allowed, I was around when the bute tolerance was dropped from two sachets to one (I'm approximating here, but that is roughly what it was). I'm not sure what the current state of play on that is, Lucretia you'll have a better idea then me.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use a product that states that it contains a banned substance? I would not expect the rider to know the list of banned substances but team vets should do and all products should be checked by them to avoid this sort of problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see your point if he picked up on a new product, but if you have been using it for years, and tested as often as Lantinus has been, with negative results, why on earth would you change your regime.........
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Agents which could influence performance by relieving pain
[/ QUOTE ]
I think your emphasis may be wrong, though. I would say it is which could influence performance by relieving pain.
Like bute, which could influence performance via its pain relieving properties, as opposed to a linament or rub, for example which, while having pain relieving properties, could not, I don't think, influence performance.
Agents which could influence performance by relieving pain
[/ QUOTE ]
I think your emphasis may be wrong, though. I would say it is which could influence performance by relieving pain.
Like bute, which could influence performance via its pain relieving properties, as opposed to a linament or rub, for example which, while having pain relieving properties, could not, I don't think, influence performance.