Dentist aged horse ?younger than expected

[TequilaMist]

Bought my lad(coloured in photo) in Sept 2009 as a yearling..
Vets had aged him at 2 beginning of last year so as 3 this year was going to start him later this year then turn away etc
Equine dentist did youngster today and asked him to age him as had 2 different ages from 2 different vets.Dentist aged him at 2/2.5 and advised leaving him another year.Dentist removed one of the front baby teeth he said as adult tooth just behind it and it didn't need a lot to come out.Teeth are starting to change now.
He is the lad in my sig and thos pics are about 2 weeks after I bought him.
Bit disappointed as was getting excited looking at working out my 'plan ' etc and confused at what age he is
Who would you go by???

 

[tasteofchristmaschaos]

Is it not possible to contact the breeder and get a birth month?
If not, I would go by the youngest answer. Better to leave it a bit longer on the assumption he is younger, than start him too early and cause him possible problems later in life.

 

[glenruby]

If hes currently losing his central incisors he s roughly 2.5yrs old.Are these top or bottom incisors(usually lose bottom first). That would make him 3yrs this summer (as in a 2008foal) which is the same YEAR as the vet would ahve made him out to be. If you dont know his breeders etc then keep a diary of when he looses each of his incisors and (down the line) you will have a good idea of what exact age he is.

I had a filly that lost her front incisors in September last year - which would make her an early 2008 foal. I had intended buying a 2007 filly (and she was vetted as such by a partner at an equine practice). As I am not staying in the country I chose to sell her rather than look after her all winter and still not ever get to sit on her( as I planned to break her late in her 3yo year). Very disappointed.

 

[MM&PP]

I put less emphasis on how old the horse is, and more on how ready and mature he is in himself.

Although saying that, I agree with the above that a little later is better than too early. I would leave until at least 3.5 normally.

 

[Kallibear]

If you bought him in September 2009, assuming he was a spring/early summer baby, he was either a weanling (6months ish) making him 2yrs old now, or he was a yearling (about 15-18months), making him just about 3 now.

The difference between a weanling and yearling is pretty obvious?!

However, if he was a very late baby, in Sept 2009 he was either a year old (making him 2.5 now) and or a 2yr old, making him 3.5 now. Again, the difference between a yearling and 2yr old is pretty obvious.

A spring baby is more likely, so it really depends on what he looked like when you bought him! Do you have decent photo's of him?

Either way I still wn't be doing much with him as he's still very much a baby. Getting used to wearing tack this year, and some inhand walks, then actual backing and breaking next year.

 

[sprite1978]

I would beleive the dentist. They have the more specialist knowledge.......Well they do have their head stuck in there all day!

 

[Kallibear]

I had a filly that lost her front incisors in September last year - which would make her an early 2008 foal. I had intended buying a 2007 filly (and she was vetted as such by a partner at an equine practice). As I am not staying in the country I chose to sell her rather than look after her all winter and still not ever get to sit on her( as I planned to break her late in her 3yo year). Very disappointed

That's a shame, esp as teeth aren't particularly accurate

My boy was born on May 15th and in theory should have lost his teeth in September/November time. However it's now-mid Feb and they're still not even loose! Which would in theory make him 3 and a bit (and a 2008 baby), when in fact he's nearly 4 (and a 2007 baby). Same happened last year with his central inscisiors, so it's just 'him'.

 

[glenruby]

Agree with Kallibear - i would have though if you had him since sept 2009 it would be pretty obvious. Is it definitely his central incisors that were loose? Or the 2nd incisors.

And I will disagree with Sprite1978 - no I would not necessarily believe the dentist. They are NOT the specialists where the equine mouth and dentistry are concerned - a good experienced vet is.

 

[alesea]

As glenruby said, there are good and poor dentists (as well as vets), and it's not always easy to spot which is which! Could the cap have been wedged onto the incisor? That can happen and can throw the aging off- are the matching incisors baby or adult teeth?

 

[glenruby]

Kallibear - yes, not usually accurate, but when the vet tells you (when questioned) that he had no reason to question that he was a 3yo -in the absence of any 3yo teeth - then theres a problem. Should add that Im a vet and an equine one at that but I did buy an unhandled youngster and couldnt hang around a few days for them to catch her so got a recommended vet in the area to do the job. She also did not have a passport until the day after vetting - though the "age by documentation" part of the vetting form was filled out. The form was also not fully completed OR signed by the vet. All in all - a very unsatisfactory vetting. So, with a conscious, I could not sell her as a 4yo this sumer (her passport does say she is 4(again was only issued AFTER i bought her) but breeder issued me a covering cert to get breeding recorded which says shes 3). I sold her to a lovely home where they are going to show her and have some fun. She is quite mature- a 15/16ths TB coloured. The only reason I questioned her age before buying was because most of the other "3 and 4yos" in the same field were no more than yearlings and 2yos - very obviously so!

 

[TequilaMist]

Thanks for all replies.
Definitely central teeth(upper one at very front ).
Glenruby I thought it was pretty obvious too until this as sort of threw me as it is a very experienced equine dentist(at least 30 yrs) which is why I'm probably dithering.He is the coloured in photo and photo taken couple weeks after bought him.He definitely was not a weanling when I got him .I -and am no expert, this was comparing to books- felt his teeth appearred approx correct for age told at time of sale.
Good idea about the diary
Can't ask who bred him he was at a yard to be sold due to relationship breakdown and tbh had been neglected a bit-feet were in a bit of a mess no jags etc
TBH vets am unsure about their accuracy esp 1 .

 

[sprite1978]

And I will disagree with Sprite1978 - no I would not necessarily believe the dentist. They are NOT the specialists where the equine mouth and dentistry are concerned - a good experienced vet is.

You would say that......Your a vet! but then again, I do have a very well respected and experienced dentist...so I`m possibly biased.

 

[Kallibear]

Upshot is he'll be 3 at most this spring, and poss only 2.5: if he wasn't a weanling then he was either 18months when you bought him, or a late foal and 1yr old.

Either way he's really a bit young to be breaking anyways so I'd be leaving him until next year. Afraid the pictures aren't good enough to tell if he's a yearling or a older.

 

[intouch]

We had a horse that was aged by a vet at 7 - after 7 years we were having trouble keeping him sound, and keeping weight on, dentist pointed out evidence that he was around 30. There are some good vets...

 

[BonneMaman]

Sorry but surely it cannot be that accurate - for example my kids have lost their teeth at completely different times to their class mates and also my kitten who was born at home is a late developer with his teeth too. The vet was really surprised when I said how old he was.

Surely, again this depends on the breed and development of the animal?

However, would assume that if the animal is late developing in the mouth then he is probably a bit underdeveloped throughout his body so should be left longer.

 

[lochpearl]

I had a very good EDT come and do my lads at the weekend, she aged my 5 and a half year old at 8 to 9 years old and my 9 year old as 7! I asked her why and she was explaining what the teeth should be like at certain ages but it all depends on say forage, grazing and just the way the teeth presented themselves. I told her that I had the passports from born, one was DNA tested as he is pure ID with the chip they placed in him as a baby so I know that is correct.

The other one was bred, passported straight away and kept at stud until he was sold to the lady I bought him from so I know his history and his age.

 

[lochpearl]

double posted!

 

[benson21]

I had a edt come out and he gave charlies age at 20 at the youngest, possibly older. Spoke to previous owners, he was 12. So EDT are not necessarily always right!

 

[Bug2007]

My dentist came and sis my four last week and i never told him how old they were ( i know when they were all born) he was spot on with all of them.

2yr old spot on.

Three year old four next month, he said four.

18 year old...spot on and

27yr old he said between 25 and 28 harder to tell as before we got him he'd been mis treated so lost a lot of teeth.

So there are some really good ones out there.

 

[Kallibear]

So there are some really good ones out there.

More likely there's some horses out there who's teeth match their ages (though are also some good EDT )

Aging a horse up until it's 5 is pretty accurate, to within 6 months. Until it's 8 is fairly easy usually. After that it's informed guess work and why anything over 8yrs old should be classes as 'aged' on a passport if nothing else is known.

 

[glenruby]

Sprite and intouch - hence why I said good and experienced vet. Of course there are good and bad - no disputing that!

ETA - as kallibear said, its quite accurate upto 5/6yrs then a good estimate after that. After 12-13yrs you can only be accurate to within 3-4yrs(at best!).

 

[sun-shine]

And I will disagree with Sprite1978 - no I would not necessarily believe the dentist. They are NOT the specialists where the equine mouth and dentistry are concerned - a good experienced vet is.

Not strictly true that, is it

 

[Groom42]

And I will disagree with Sprite1978 - no I would not necessarily believe the dentist. They are NOT the specialists where the equine mouth and dentistry are concerned - a good experienced vet is.

I am very much of the opinion that a vet is the equine equivalent of a GP.
Some GPs specialist in women's health, some in sports injuries, some in heart/blood pressure problems.
Some vets are renowned for lameness diagnosis, some fertility, some colic.
However, if I had a problem beyond my GP's immediate expertise, I would expect him to refer me on to a specialist. If I had toothache, I would not go to my GP, I would visit my dentist, and that is where I go for my regular checkups.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of "suspect" (being polite here!) equine dentists out there, and I think they do a lot of harm, indirectly, to the damn good, efficient, qualified and extremely knowledgeable horse dentists.
I have an amazing lady horse dentist who is calm, patient and has a magic touch with even the most difficult horse. She never regards an appointment as a "time slot" - it takes as long as it does. She always allows extra time for a new horse, so it is never rushed, and she is very "polite" about introducing herself to the horse before she starts poking around in it's mouth. She encourages the owners to put their hands right in, and feel what is in there, both before and after treatment. She prefers to use manual tools for accuracy and feel. She travels 70 miles to see my horses, and has looked after them for several years. Yesterday she saw the young thoroughbred of a friend, who had been "seen" by the "dentist" less than four months ago. He had become very stressy in his mouth, shaking his head in and out of tack. When my wonderful lady saw him, she thought he had never been done in his life - he is rising 6. She spent an hour and a half with him, being patient, and treating his appalling teeth. Poor boy had a 1cm piece of baby tooth embedded in his gum/cheek, which was bleeding and sore. She will come back in six months to see him again. My friend was horrified (she was actually in hospital, and the dentist rang her to update her on her boy's mouth) and will continue to use my highly qualified, experienced dentist.
Sorry this has turned into an essay - but it just fell at the right time!
If anyone wants my lady's details, please PM me.......... Eastern area/humberside, but I'm S.Lincs!

 

[Rosehip]

After using an EDT who I thought was qualified (he had done all my previous horses with absolutely no problems) and somehow leaving my big girl with an ulcerated mouth and impacted wolf tooth, I used another highly recommended EDT who sorted Mels out in 1 visit...and showed me her qualifications! However, when she came to do Mels and Seri when I 1st had Seri, she said her age was approx 9-10 when in fact she was rising 5 at the time. I had her again to do both girls where she found ulcerations in Seri's mouth dispite only having been done 6mths previous, and said she had a wave to her teeth, but felt sure she would be ok to go 9-12 months thereafter.
My Vet came to check Seri's pregnancy, do Mels vaccs and seeing as it was a package deal, do both their teeth. They had both been done 10 months prior, and both had severly ulcerated mouths. The vet also said that it was virtually impossible to say that Seri was 5-6 years older than she is!
As in all walks of life, there are good and bad in every profession, and I take a lot of what I am told by everyone with a large pinch of salt!

 

[sun-shine]

Unfortunately you cannot rely on qualifications for good dentistry. One well known exam in particular is renowned for being so easy and badly assessed, that many dentists don't bother with it any more. There are a range of exams you can take and in my opinion some are better then others. I think the best answer is to go by recommendation, and experience. Re manual tools for accuracy and feel, in my opinion that is absolutely not the case, and I think most dentists would agree with me when I say that motorised tools in experienced hands and with a correctly sedated horse, are many times more accurate and leave a better finish. Personally I work with manual tools (hand floats) but I studied in america where the majority of horses in the area I was are sedated and floated with motorised tools. Unfortunately the cost is prohibitive - clients were paying well over $180 per horse, every 6 months. Hand floats are perfectly fine for maintenence work, but in my opinion would not be chosen for reasons of accuracy.

 

[Groom42]

Hand floats are perfectly fine for maintenence work, but in my opinion would not be chosen for reasons of accuracy.

Thank you, SS! I chose the word "accuracy", not my dentist, and it probably was not the most suitable one! She does have very up to date power tools, and will use them, only if the horse is sedated, although I understand some EDTs will use them unsedated. I am not an expert by any means, but my possibly naive opinion is that, even in the most experienced hands, it must be all too easy to take just that little bit too much down, as the power tools are so efficient. Surely then you are faced with having to "level up" the other side to compensate, and keep the balance? Either way, I am more than happy with the fab work she does, and would recommend her to anyone. I could see a huge difference in how this particular horse was behaving, and munching, even just half an hour post-treatment. He must have been so sore!

 

[sun-shine]

in the most experienced hands, it must be all too easy to take just that little bit too much down, as the power tools are so efficient. Surely then you are faced with having to "level up" the other side to compensate, and keep the balance?

Yeah I thought that too actually when I started training - but I've never had a problem with it personally, if you're a bit inexperienced and you're not paying attention then it can happen, more likely to accidently change the angles of the teeth rather than reduce size of all the teeth. Horses teeth are much tougher then I used to give them credit for, and take a fair bit of motoring to really reduce them down. To be fair the dentist I trained with was very stingey and never liked replacing his burrs, so they were pretty blunt That's really great you've found a dentist you like, certainly sounds like they're doing a good job. Word of mouth is so valuable in this industry, I hope I have a few people who like me that much too

 

[glenruby]

Yes, I agree. Motorised tools are particularly good because they allow the user to be far more accurate than manual tools. However, in the inexperienced hand, they can be overused. Actually, I recently visited a practice that had just bought a new piece of kit. The partner was trying it out for the first time and as i had previous experience of using the same power tool, he asked for my assistance. He turned it on too high a setting and took off quite a lot of tooth - luckily just stopping short of the secondary dentine! Good job it was his own horse he was trying it out on! Took him 2-3horses to be comfortable with its use but now 6mths later, its no bother. (For the record, he has 10+yrs experience of dental work and has completed quite a few BEVA and foreign courses but has not enough interest in dentistry to do the BEVA/BAEDT exam.

As for the "specialist" comment - EDTs are not allowed to do anything other than routine dental work - this excludes under current legislation, using motorised tools. If they cannot remove teeth, treat infections or other afflictions of the buccal cavity and correct dental abnormalities (though they should hopefully recognise the above!) how exactly are they specialists of the equine mouth? But yes, I agree with Groom 42 in that when further treatment is required, its a vet with a special interest and experience in dental problems that you should request to see.

 

[sun-shine]

Definately a good thing it was his own horse! I think my old pony should thank her lucky stars that she wasn't around for me to practice on when I first started!

EDTs are not allowed to do anything other than routine dental work - this excludes under current legislation, using motorised tools.

I believe that contrary to popular belief that legislation has not been passed yet.. The dentist in the UK I shadowed with does all of what you've mentioned apart from treat infections. There is always a vet present at some point for sedation, and they are always aware of what he's doing. Can you clarify what you mean by treating dental abnormalities? I'm quite sure we're allowed to use motorised tools. I don't want to be too assertive as I can't be completely sure what he and the vets he was with told me.

ETA had a look on the BAEDT website and it seems to confirm what I thought, although you have to read it very carefully to make it out. I don't carry out such proceedures in the UK regardless, the investment in motorised gear is too great for one at the moment. Its a shame as I really enjoyed that aspect of the job in the states. And sedated horses are so much more relaxing to work on

 

[glenruby]

Quite the opposite - EDTs are anticipating legislation being passed allowing them to do more. However they are currently legally only allowed to do Category one procedures - which excludes removing permanent teeth and using motorised equipment. Im surprised as an EDT you werent aware! However, the motorised equipment part is usually turned a blind eye to as is removal of wolf teeth (as long as the horse is sedated for this). EDTs legally are allowed to do routine maintenanc, nothing more.

Dental abnormalities eg diastemas, etc. Vets will support well trained, sensible and most of all suitably qualified EDTs. Nothing wrong with that - most of us have little interest in doing routine dentals - if we did then we wouldnt have bothered doing veerinary. (I understand some vets will disagree with me and say they love basic dentistry but I like the unusual stuff more). A good relationship between EDTs and vets is important - we want them to refer their interesting and complicated cases afterall - its the guys who try to be heros and do procedures that are above and beyond their skill level (and are illegal) that we dislike.