Depressed horse - just don't knw what to do anymore?

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Jericho

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Sorry this is going to be a bit ramble my but have been mulling for a while and as I keep my horses at home I don't really have any one to bounce any thoughts off.

I have posted about my 17 yr old tbx 15.1hh mare before - she is amazingly gentle but for no reason (in the last 6 years) she is increasingly nervous and shy. I have only ever treated her with kindness. She shows no personality or interest in life other than food. She doesn't have any vices and objects to nothing and tolerates everything. Out hacking she plods along ears slumped but panics quickly, schooling or just moing she gets on with it but flaps her bottom lip constantly. She has a lovely life with no stress, friends, warmth, regular vet checks and Physio but she acts like she has given up/doesn't care. She freaks if you touch her ears and no amount of careful handling or densistising has changed this in 6yrs.

She was recently diagnosed with cushings and has been on pergolide for about 4 weeks. I was warned about a depression this drug caused but nothing has changed, she is neither happier or worse. She has an increasingly sway back so her ridden days are limited. She isn't a happy horse compared to most other horses I know. She will just stand tied up looking utterly dejected whilst being groomed or if just being left. She isn't in any marked pain that a Physio or vet can find but I hate seeing her like that - her eyes are dead. She would probably be perfectly happy if I turned her loose on the moor and she never saw another human again. I love this mare so much and she is my responsibility - she would never hurt another soul, something has happened to her in the past which has I cannot work out but it seems to haunt her and as she gets older it sees to get worse, even, as I mentioned, she has a very easy, relaxed life with no obvious stresses at all. Every time I ride her which is about once a week to hack out with my daughter and pony I end feeling like the cruelest person in the world as she acts like I am being exactly that. I need a horse to ride out with daughter but Ijust feel that she is saying stop. It would be easy to say oh just retire her, let her be etc, bring in a third horse for mebut I just don't know. I can't afford three horses, in time or money really but could do it. She has often had long periods of time off work (if the 1-3 times counts as work). I have increased the work - hacking, schooling, forest rides, shows - but she never changes in her attitude.

I would never sell her because I don't want her to end up in wrong hands as a ridden horse. She would be a good companion horse as a very good doer and doesn't need (read: want) any attention but I am not sure she would be any happierh anywhere else. How do you know what to do for best? Sometimes I think maybe she is having some massive inner turmoil or low grade pain that she doesn't show and maybe I should put her out of her misery because that is what she looks like she is in. I am not sure what advice or feed back I am looking for, maybe other people have experienced depressed horses like this? It's utterly soul destroying looking after such a miserable horse. We have had other ponies and horses who are great characters and seem very happy with their lives but this poor soul just doesn't want to be happy...
 
I really feel sorry for both of you but have no advice as have never experienced this but didn't want to read and run.
 
With the support of your vet, shovel her full of bute and see what happens.

From what you say I suspect she is uncomfortable
 
I have no experience of this I'm afraid, but if you have any interest in it, can send you details of a holistic vet who might have some input/alternative thinking - very good at seeing past what most vets might see, thought I don't know where you are - he does travel, however. He has worked wonders with my horse - different situation but he has worked with some cases like yours, I believe.
 
It sounds as if she is very stoic and is suffering from low grade pain, the fact that a vet and physio can find no reason does not mean there is nothing wrong, have you tried a bute trial?
My horse has been suffering from pain in one form or other for almost 2 years, on and off, from several different but related injuries, I could see when he was in pain but the vets often dismissed it as stress or behavioural but there was always pain it just proved hard to pin point where, I still see the dead look on the odd day and am now suspecting ulcers which may be the final thing to fix, he responded to a bute trial a while ago so we thought it ruled out ulcers, as it should not have helped and even made them worse, it is usually a case of trial and error to get to the bottom of what is going on and the vets are not always best at this type of non specific condition, they prefer something more obvious than " he looks dull in his eyes" which if they don't know the individual means very little but to the owner it is so obvious.
 
You know, I'd go with ihateworks suggestion of a good bute trial. If nothing else it will rule pain out.
I feel for you, I had a horse who was miserable in the winter and it really really got me down aswell. I remember just sitting on the yard crying out of dispair and not knowing how to make him happy.
What do you think of animal communicators? Tbh not my sort of thing but many swear by them?!
 
it may be the cushings and 4 weeks is not long to be on prascend. it takes a while to get into their system and cushings can cause depression and lethargy...one of the reasons I got my mare tested originally was because she was behaving very similar to yours and she changed radically and I got my old loony mare back even though she can be very challenging to ride, I hated her being so quiet and sleepy all of the time...sometimes the medication causes depression but once the dose is at the right level she should improve. I had to get my mare tested after 2 months(when she was first diagnosed) to make sure the dose was right.. hope this helps, good luck
 
The poor thing. And poor you! Give the pergolide a bit more time to work. I agree with ihatework, I expect she is in pain. Could she have very low grade laminitis? I have seen many cushings horses with very mild laminitis that don't seem lame, they are just a bit ploddy. Try the bute as suggested and see what happens. I expect if her back is becoming sway, this will be causing her backache. Personally I wouldn't ride her. As you say yourself she is telling you to stop. Follow your instinct. You are obviously a very astute and sensitive owner; listen to your inner feelings. If it definitely isn't pain, then possibly she is mourning a lost companion or owner. Horses bond for life and removing companions can really affect some badly.
 
Thank you all for your kind replies. I can only think she is in pain too, maybe low grade lami caused by cushings has just got her down without really causing obvious distress. Vet is out in 2 weeks to retest acth levels so will discuss a bute trial. The pergolide has made absolutely no difference at all to her so far - she is no better or worse.

Regarding the riding I am in 2 minds - we only hack anyway now and no more than an hour in walk and trot and was hoping that a change of scenery would perk her up especially if we box up and go somewhere different. It doesn't usually though. I also trying to get some weight off her. Six of one and half a dozen of another. I also need to accompany daughter out hacking.

Your comment about horsey companions has hit a nerve though Wagtail. Over the 6 years I have had her several ponies have come and gone. She has never really shown any particular fondness for any other equine in that I never have seen her scratch necks, she always grazes apart and never fusses if the other pony leaves and she has always been totally submissive towards other horses to the event every other horse we have had seems to dislike her but I do wonder whether the coming and going has caused her to shut down even more...
 
So you plan to continue riding for the next two weeks, despite you thinking she might be in pain???

Simply ring your vet tomorrow and ask for a months supply of bute.
 
Echoing others on bute/ possible pain.

On a more positive note have you ever tried to teach her something new. Some of the parelli games, clicker training, or long reining over obstacles (say pole maze etc).
Perhaps it might help your bond, and there might be something that gets her interest.
I've started doing extra massage for bonding with one of mine, initially he made an outraged face but he's coming round to it.

Do you know if she's ever had a foal?
 
I would do the bute trial before the vet comes next, that way if she responds the vet can have a proper look when he comes not have to come back again, I am not sure if it will need to be stopped before the bloods are taken but you have time to do a week which should be long enough to work if it is going to, the dipping back may be a sign of cushings but is also related many other things that could be going on in a horse of her age.
 
No Amy May I know it sounds like that as an objective viewer but I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I won't ride her until vet comes anyway to do bloods, mostly because her sway back (which isn't actually that pronounced!) is causing the most concern now - her ridden career is regrettably coming to an end because of this regardless of her depressed manner. I have had the vet to see her numerous times to rule out lameness as well as a Physio as it has always niggled me why she is like she is, pain being the obvious reason. When she is ridden there is no unwillingness to move forward - she is very forward going, she shows absolutely no obvious sign of pain or lameness even after nerve blocks to either front feet again. She doesn't buck, rear, nap, spook, jog and works happily in an outine as long as she is ridden correctly and softly. She is miserable whether ridden or just on the ground.When we rode last week and today I ended up dismounting and walking most of the road work as just not happy with her back at the mo. She is the same whether she is being ridden at the time, has had several weeks of being not ridden or has been ridden lots. In last year she was won prelim dressage as well as a very low level beginner TREC class and no one ever felt she looked uncomfortable. If I truly felt she was in pain I wouldn't ride her but will try anything including a bute trial if it helps. Will a vet just prescribe bute without seeing the horse?!?

Today I just watched her stood outside her stabling after bringing her in for the night and she just looked very old, stood still, head down, and fed up - I just felt so sorry for her.

She has been on bute before when she had an abscess after I tried going barefoot with her to see if any pain was from that area. Going barefoot made her even more miserable so put front shoes back on and she walked out more forward again. During that period the bute made no difference to her general demeanor although she obviously felt more comfortable walking whilst abscess sorted itself out. This was however a few years ago so maybe another bute trial may show something different.

Re ground work I tried that - she showed absolutely no interest , didn't want to do it, only ever responded if food was involved. Lunging /longlining does stress her out so don't do that! Tried lovely grooming sessions and even a mctimoney person - she just shuts down, closes her eyes and tolerates it. I don't think she has ever had a foal as she had a fairly consistent BE record before I got her. I have tried just not doing anything with her other than checking she is ok and feeding her and again she is just totally non reactive and unfussed. Something is definitely going on - I just don't know what...
 
If she's previously been a competition horse, and perhaps she was happier in this, and this is a sort of retirement for her; perhaps she's just not a horse that takes to retirement.
It sounds as if you've explored all the reasonable avenues, done your due diligence.
If the horse isn't/ can't be happy, and you're not happy.... I'm sure you can see where this is going.
 
What do you feed this horse on?

I am wondering if she is reacting to something you are giving her - do you feed magnesium? I have a mare who became very lethargic on mag, ox, even though the others all respond favourably to it and one is much calmer on it even though they all eat the same basic diet and graze the same fields.
We also have had horses which have been very sensitive to a variety of feeds.
 
Pearlsasinger - yep have tried the whole feed thing. I generally feed all my horses a no cereal no molasses diet anyway so a bit of grass /straw chop with forage plus balancer plus linseed and speedibeet in winter. Have added cinnamon, turmeric, mag ox, agnus catex, moody mare supplement, boswelia serrata as a pain killer , joint supplement all at various times - again nothing made much difference. She is on nothing but handful of chop and forage plus balancer at the mo, out at grass during day, in at night with soaked hay.
 
Kittykins - she has always been shy and very submissive both to humans and other horses and was when I took her on loan. I have thought long and hard about times when she has seemed happy and actually the only time is when we have done cross country and she had that tired but contented look on her face after. Maybe she liked the professional yard life, competing, routine and being pampered. Her previous owner bought her from a professional eventer but after a couple more years eventing and a check ligament injury felt that the mare needed a quieter life and the home I was offering as happy hacker, lots of turnout, bit of low level competing etc. would be great. she responded to a wanted on loan ad that I placed and I ended up buying her 9 months later as she was perfect even though she was shy and aloof.
 
Then i hate to suggest it as you're clearly a loving owner, but have you thought of loaning her to someone who wants her to lead a busier life? Or at least can keep her on a busier yard? Maybe a friend has a teenage daughter who might want something safe and steady to take around the odd cross country course?

It might be worth a three or month trial just to see whether she perks up.

I've ridden horses who were perfectly nice, decent horses but, for whatever reason, just didn't feel right so I didn't enjoy riding them. If I had to only ride them, I'd probably go off the sport. Maybe the chemistry between you just isn't right for her for no particular reason. It doesn't mean you're a bad owner, of course.
 
Jericho said:
Pearlsasinger - yep have tried the whole feed thing. I generally feed all my horses a no cereal no molasses diet anyway so a bit of grass /straw chop with forage plus balancer plus linseed and speedibeet in winter. Have added cinnamon, turmeric, mag ox, agnus catex, moody mare supplement, boswelia serrata as a pain killer , joint supplement all at various times - again nothing made much difference. She is on nothing but handful of chop and forage plus balancer at the mo, out at grass during day, in at night with soaked hay.
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Do you know every single ingredient which is in the balancer and the chop? I would strip her feed right back to grass and hay for 3 weeks to see if that makes any difference. I certainly wouldn't feed cinnamon, it lowers blood sugar, to the extent that even a tiny amount makes me go to sleep.

Of course the reason she is depressed might be nothing to do with her feed but because of a horse I used to have whose behaviour was massively affected by what she ate, I would definitely investigate that route further.
 
I do think horses can have very different personalities just as people do, because I have owned most of my ponies most of their lives and have had quite a few I can see their personalities change over time.
I have one pony who is very intelligent, likes problems, and is very adventurous but none of the other animals have time for him, his main amusement is trying to escape and find something to eat and he spends large amounts of time grazing on his own. I also have a young colt who I do not know what has happened to before I got him, he's only two, and is so dopey and half a sleep most of the time I wonder if he has any oomph in him at all. Our old pony didn't really like people, was obedient and not really nasty but if you were not watching would take a chunk out of you. The mares are a law to themselves, not really friends with anyone but hysterical if one leaves. The geldings are the most normal but even one of them is a real bully, but he was very submissive as a foal.
There may be nothing wrong with your mare, she may just need a lot of stimulation to gee her up, and like our old pony has decided that compliance is a way to get you away as quickly as possible so she can be left alone. Often animals that have lived under a strict regime switch off, or when you think about it she may have you sussed, if she exhibits a certain behaviour she gets out of doing any work.
 
I used to look after a horse who sounds similar to yours. He appeared depressed all the time and had no 'get up and go', but was otherwise behaving normally. eventually it turned out he had cancer, so he had been suffering stoically for some time. Sorry, that's rather depressing. However, my other thought would be to check her eyesight and hearing, especially as you mentioned her being a bit jumpy at times. In my experience though, horses who appear depressed and lethargic are often in pain.
 
I too would try the bute trial. If this doesn't make any difference I would suggest she just hates being in a quiet retirement.
As she is old and sway backed there ist really any chance of her competing again

I once retired a 7yr old. He reacted similar, went completely lethargic, didn't want to do anything. Really miserable.
I decided to try bringing him back into work with a very light weight rider.
At first he was only a little happier, but once going out doing stuff and kept at a busy yard the difference the was massive. Seems he liked being on a really busy yard. He is now 18 and a still in work with a tiny jockey :)

Sadly I would honestly think if the bute trial doesn't help that maybe she would be better off pts. Hugs
 
I can only sympathise with you, as when I bought my mare- she had the same traits. She had no interest in anything, would hang in her box, had to be dragged out and in. The only thing she took an interest in was squealing at new friends and the boys! Even my non horsey mum asked what was wrong with her. It took time to get her right but we can only think she was recovering from illness or pain at the time I purchased her, and so after vet checks, a new diet and a gentle routine to bring her back into work we dosed her up with haemavite B Plus, which gave her a boost to her vitamin levels and iron (she was also showing signs of anaemia, given how lethargic she was). It really made a difference to her. I think she had probably been one of many previously (competition horse), and had come to a home where she would be 1:1- it took her time to adjust.

I am another who thinks vets support is the best way to go. I personally don't think any horse, regardless of personality has no interest in life/friends/routine/turn out etc. Most horses regardless of whether they are the shy, retiring type, will have something which sparks their interest and personality. I would be concerned something else is going on, including pain issues.

Hope you get it sorted.
 
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please give the cushings medication time to work, she may well have low grade pain but depression is a known symptom of cushings and as I said before mine was similar to yours, head down, not interested in anything, sometimes couldn't even be bothered to graze and had no reaction when she was petted or groomed. after the medication kicked in she was full of life and happy... I would still give it time and I would suggest you ring your vet and tell them of your concerns, they have seen your horse and everyone on the forum hasn't!!
 
I agree with giving the cushings meds time to work. What was her acth reading when she was tested. If it was thru not 100's the dosage may need 2 months to get right. How is her appetite? Before my girl was diagnosed she was really miserable. She'd only had an operation 2 months earlier so I thought it was the recovery, but got her on the prascend and about 6 weeks later she was more herself again. Took another few weeks after that to get her back completely. Fingers crossed this will sort it out but if not I agree with the Bute trial.
 
Her appetite is HUGE even with the pergolide ... She eats anything even a straw chop which most other horses turn their nose up at! Food seems to be the only thing that perks her up. Her acth reading was v high over 500 but bear in mind this would be affected by seasonal rise anyway. It will be interesting to see if this has come down 8 weeks on, so far it hasn't made any difference at all nearly 5 weeks in.
 
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