depressing lack of progress... laminitus/cushings

0ldmare

0ldmare

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My mare was found very slightly lame on 1st September and vet diagnosed mild laminitis (1st time ever for this mare). Each day she got steadily worse and then was diagnosed with Cushings and put on Pergolide.

It got very close to me calling it a day, but there seemed to be a slight improvement and the vet seems to think there's hope, but 2 days ago she was worse again. Lying down all the time etc. Today we seem to have another slight improvement. But she's still crippled.

Does anyone have some words of encouragement after all this time for recovery? Did anyone elses horse take this long to show improvement? Vet says to give Pergolde 4 weeks, she's been on it 3 weeks now.
 
So sorry to read this. Is her diet well controlled? My pony got worse with a new batch of hay even though it was soaked. Swapping to other soaked hay gave a big improvement.
I've no experience with Cushings but joining this Group might be helpful if you're not already a member. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse There are many with difficult to manage horses on there.

It may be worth you going through your management and diet just to see if any improvements can be made and what has changed that may have caused this dip. I'm sure you're aware but just in case, no grass is the safest policy imo.
Best of luck. I've a friend on another Forum who has been struggling with her 'Cushings horse' for two years now. She has had advice from Dr Kellon ( US laminitis expert) amongst others and eventually a BF trimmer took over the trimming after time with remedial shoeing and she is riding him lightly now. Still a long way to go for him growing good strong hooves, getting his diet right has been difficult but he is progressing slow but sure.
Every horse is so individual, I wish you the best.
 
Funnily enough I think the new hay has caused the relapse (not that she was in any way good before!). I had to switch to new season hay as my old august cut, last years, hay had run out. Obviously I'm soaking it, but it appears 4 hours wasn't enough. I had it tested and it came in at 10% sugar and was told that, as its borderline, 1/2 hour would be enough but decided to go for 4 hours to be on the safe side. Its now being soaked for 12 hours.

She gets no grass and just 1/3 scoop hi fi lite and 1/3 scoop Safe and Sound trice a day (but hates it so basically has about 1 mouthful twice a day!)

Essentially she hates the food, hates the soaked hay so is losing weight quicker than I'd like! Oh and tried her on Speedi Beet which she won't even go near let alone eat!

Its heartening to hear about your friends horse though
 
I remember your post about the hay. Sorry I can't be of more help, it seems small things can make a big difference to some horses and diet can be a bit trial and error to some extent.
Does she get magnesium oxide and salt? Shame about the speedibeet it's such a good carrier.
It might help to email Jackie Taylor at metabolic horse for her diet sheet for laminitis or for advice about diet or consult a local dietition.

http://www.metabolichorse.co.uk/
http://drkellon.com/
http://www.safergrass.org/
 
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I had a similar thing happen to my boy...although his was not cushings related. He was not improving as he should on box rest and I had his hay tested which came back as 11% sugars! So I started soaking it and he hated it...he stopped eating and was not even eating his hi fi lite because of the bute. He was loosing weight rapidly, stressed, had liquid poos and was down to about 1 pad eaten per day. The vet called time and said we needed to change things drastically and we both knew he was very stressed on box rest so we agreed to make a pen outside his stable so he could wander outside and be less stressed and nibble some hay in the sun (he has a field stable). The improvement in him as a horse, his appetite and his laminits was remarkable! I also started giving him biggish buckets of dengie healthy hooves as it was a bit more interesting to eat for him and he had to eat something or we were going to have many other problems on our hands. He recovered in leaps and bounds once he was less stressed...bar a few set backs mainly due to abscesses.
I am NOT saying that this would be right for your horse at all...but the general management needs to be reviewed constantly when you have a horse on box rest with laminitis, how is your horse coping mentally, how much sugar is in everything else fed as well as the hay, do the feet have enough support etc etc.
Good luck with your horse, I feel your pain and heart ache and have everything crossed that things pick up soon...have you had xrays done by the way to access if there is rotation?
 
Jaime Jackson's book 'Founder: Its Prevention and Cure' is a really good read - very reassuring in terms of time to recover from laminitis, although he is talking mainly about diet-induced rather than cushings-induced.
 
Thanks guys, actually she is out in the school rather than stabled. Its got a lovely soft supportive surface and the vet was fine with it. She's a stress head in the stable (weaves/box walks) but is reasonably relaxed in the school, although pretty depressed I guess. She tends to stand in a corner and eat the wooden rails (5 replaced yesterday :eek: ) It seems wood is more attractive than soaked hay :(

I have been on the metabolic horse site but will go back and look for the diet plan (if only she was a greedy horse this would be much easier!)

I'll also try to find the Jaime Jackson book, thanks

She hasn't been having any salt but I've just nipped out and hung one of those himalayan salt licks for her - she just gave me an old fashioned look and resumed her assault on the fence - I think she's trying to eat her way to freedom!

She has eaten a slice of hay over night though so that's a positive and is no more crippled today than she was yesterday
 
hope you dont mind me putting up a comment.

i had a lami/cushings section a.and it was hard to start with but you do finally find what works and what doesnt you just have to trial and error.she was on pergolide half a tablet a day for 3 years.

this is what my vet said but all are different......

he said laminitus was made worse when horses go out on wet pasture as the water increases the sugar content. so by me soaking the hay like i always thought was best to do i was actually increasing the sugar levels.as when the hay is left wet for so long it starts to ferment and release more sugar. so i had to hunt high and low for old dusty crappy hay and she improved.


he also said to not feed all these swanky feeds such as happy hoof and safe and sound. he reckoned basic chaff and nuts etc was best.with plenty of forage. but towards the end i changed her to Simple system food and she loved it. and they are really helpful and its all pretty basic.and i found it economical.

at our yard at the time her turn out was really limited and she was on virtual box rest as the ground was soooooo boggy as it was clay. in winter you were knee high in mud and this made her go lame.....but i moved her to a sandy soiled place and she made a miraculous recovery and was turnt out all the time unless it rained and she was in......


but unfortunatly she was 25 and we lost her last christmas as her teeth were worn down and loose etc and she just couldnt digest her food properly.

it can be done.admtidly she was a companion for 2 of them years but was ridden up until then and had always suffered wih lami the cushings just came in later life.

shout if you want anything else.

good luck and keep positive.
 
louised1henry said:
he said laminitus was made worse when horses go out on wet pasture as the water increases the sugar content. so by me soaking the hay like i always thought was best to do i was actually increasing the sugar levels.as when the hay is left wet for so long it starts to ferment and release more sugar. so i had to hunt high and low for old dusty crappy hay and she improved.


he also said to not feed all these swanky feeds such as happy hoof and safe and sound. he reckoned basic chaff and nuts etc was best.with plenty of forage. but towards the end i changed her to Simple system food and she loved it. and they are really helpful and its all pretty basic.and i found it economical.

at our yard at the time her turn out was really limited and she was on virtual box rest as the ground was soooooo boggy as it was clay. in winter you were knee high in mud and this made her go lame.....but i moved her to a sandy soiled place and she made a miraculous recovery and was turnt out all the time unless it rained and she was in......
Click to expand...

Just need to put my oar in here. For the inside track on grass and sugar go to www.safergrass.org

Water in isolation does not increase the sugar content of grass - that is a simple chemical fact. What does increase grass sugars are a range of factors. For example rain after a long dry spell will encourage grass growth and that new grass can be high in sugar. But there are a lot of factors and if you want to manage grass sugars it pays to really study the site I mentioned.

Re soaking hay - that is also not quite right. Soaking hay leaches the sugar out. The grass is dead so can not produce more sugar. The natural yeasts grow and ferment - using up the sugar not producing more. Where some people/horses come unstuck is a) they don't soak for long enough, in clean water and they don't use enough water. b) they don't wash the soaking water off the hay after soaking

For sensitive horses and some hay types it is important to rinse the hay post soaking with more clean water. This is because the soaking water is high in sugar (it has leached from he hay), it may be slightly alcoholic (the yeasts), and any traces of nitrogen fertiliser undergo a chemical change and can become toxic.

I agree the Laminitic Trust recommended feeds are too high in sugar for sensitive horses (although fine for some) and I have seen a sound horse go lami on an LT endorsed food.

Clay is a very productive growing medium and with the right weather can produce quite sugary grass. Also the type of sward is very important and this varies - even switching fields, let alone yards can have an impact.

Simple systems food is generally ok, but expensive, it is possible to provide the equivalent or better much more cheaply.
 
louised1henry said:
he said laminitus was made worse when horses go out on wet pasture as the water increases the sugar content.
Click to expand...

Ah, another vet who has a theory about wet grass. My current vet told me that wet grass causes scour in some horses. In this case my very sick little fella. This just never made sense to me and wasn't demonstrated in the ponys response to 'wet grass' either.
The vet said he'd noticed this over his fifty years of experience with some horses and more especially cattle. I can find absolutely no scientific evidence for this and have to disagree with him. A bit off topic but I was interested to hear what your vet said about wet grass.
Another aside to this is it got me thinking about cow pats and whether pats are actually really normal for cattle... that's another story though. lol

I agree with LucyPriory's points here.
 
0ldmare said:
My mare was found very slightly lame on 1st September and vet diagnosed mild laminitis (1st time ever for this mare). Each day she got steadily worse and then was diagnosed with Cushings and put on Pergolide.

It got very close to me calling it a day, but there seemed to be a slight improvement and the vet seems to think there's hope, but 2 days ago she was worse again. Lying down all the time etc. Today we seem to have another slight improvement. But she's still crippled.

Does anyone have some words of encouragement after all this time for recovery? Did anyone elses horse take this long to show improvement? Vet says to give Pergolde 4 weeks, she's been on it 3 weeks now.
Click to expand...

I would call it a day. As far as I am aware the pergolide does not treat laminitis it prevents it. So once Laminitis has set in, the pergolide wont help per se. Other treatment is necessary. If all the treatments arent working then it is time to call an end to it. Really sorry and I am not judging you as you need to make the decision that is right for you and your horse, but if it was my mare and she was still suffering/crippled then I would be thinking about calling it a day especially with the future prognosis and lifestyle changes that lay ahead for her.

I think you need a long hard chat with your vet tbh.

I do feel for you. I had my boy pts earlier this year due to Cushings.
 
sorry for hijacking thread but dozzie just out of curiosity how did your old horse detoriate with his cushings. one of my old mares has it and is at the moment doing very well but would like to prepare myself and be on the look out for signs of detoriation
 
ew1801 said:
sorry for hijacking thread but dozzie just out of curiosity how did your old horse detoriate with his cushings. one of my old mares has it and is at the moment doing very well but would like to prepare myself and be on the look out for signs of detoriation
Click to expand...

Is this the same mare who is experiencing the breathing difficulties? If she has Cushings, that may well be the reason behind her problems, as I posted to you last night.
 
ihotse has a point...if any other systems in the horse are struggling to perform well, it will not help the laminitis...my horse was also suffering terribly with his breathing being on box rest and it was one of the main reasons we turned him out into a pen instead...the vet was convinced that this was not helping his feet recover because he was fighting the breathing situation and all clogged up.
 
LucyPriory said:
Just need to put my oar in here. For the inside track on grass and sugar go to www.safergrass.org

Water in isolation does not increase the sugar content of grass - that is a simple chemical fact. What does increase grass sugars are a range of factors. For example rain after a long dry spell will encourage grass growth and that new grass can be high in sugar. But there are a lot of factors and if you want to manage grass sugars it pays to really study the site I mentioned.

Re soaking hay - that is also not quite right. Soaking hay leaches the sugar out. The grass is dead so can not produce more sugar. The natural yeasts grow and ferment - using up the sugar not producing more. Where some people/horses come unstuck is a) they don't soak for long enough, in clean water and they don't use enough water. b) they don't wash the soaking water off the hay after soaking

For sensitive horses and some hay types it is important to rinse the hay post soaking with more clean water. This is because the soaking water is high in sugar (it has leached from he hay), it may be slightly alcoholic (the yeasts), and any traces of nitrogen fertiliser undergo a chemical change and can become toxic.

I agree the Laminitic Trust recommended feeds are too high in sugar for sensitive horses (although fine for some) and I have seen a sound horse go lami on an LT endorsed food.

Clay is a very productive growing medium and with the right weather can produce quite sugary grass. Also the type of sward is very important and this varies - even switching fields, let alone yards can have an impact.

Simple systems food is generally ok, but expensive, it is possible to provide the equivalent or better much more cheaply.
Click to expand...


Have to say that I totally agree with Lucy on this.

As I recall this horse has been subject of a full blown attack and was flat out for a good while.

She needs to grow new hooves which will take time.
 
Don't give up!!!

My 25 year old arab x welsh x tb mare has Cushings, chronic laminitic you name it she has it...we have spent hours on the phone to Hilton Herbs - very very helpful. The problem with Cushings and Pergolide is that they can become depressed - Cushex has really helped my mare with this. Agnus Castus is very good for Cushings.

She also took her time to get used to Speedibeat, soak it in warm water, it goes down much faster! She's also on 'Fibre P nuts, Cold conditioning cubes. It always takes about 2-3 days to get her to try new food, so stick at it.

She's now barefoot and has 'RX' boots to go out in, and likes to decide for herself if she wants to be in lying down or out and about.

We always have the dreaded question in the back of our minds about if we're doing the right thing to keep her going...It's hard not to put the human emotional approach on to your decision, but if your horse is up and about and still willing there is hope.

Also have you asked for a diabetes test?

There is so much negative press out there about the management of Cushings horses, speak to Laminitis trust, Chris Day (homepathic vet). Our local vet is always quite down beat about cushings but there is so it's hard to know what to do....so much research being done at the moment, don't lose hope.

Good luck!!:)
 
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