Desensitising/sacking out

I do mine from the back of another horse- just lots of patting all over, running a saddlecloth all over, moving every possible way etc as then you're up where you'll be when you're on
 
There is a HUGE difference between desensitising and sacking out. Desensitising escalates no faster than the horse can cope with without getting stressed, sacking out "floods" the horse with stimuli while he is unable to get away, not something to be recommended if you want a well adjusted confident horse.
 
Definitely from the ground:) 5 mins every couple of hrs. Do sounds as well wheelie bin, clapping, etc as well as football kicking, plastic bag waving including the dread black bin liner :) I have found that all these places have to be revisited as training progresses. In the saddle I let or make the horse investigate the life threatening rather than scurry past taste smell etc lots and lots of praise. Also, I over emphasis the release rather than pile on the pressure. How do you do it?
 
Dave the dog said:
Hi Jilla are you sure ? Thought it depended on what part of the world your from.
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Sacking out is the old American practice of tying horses to an immovable solid post and then repeatedly hitting them on the quarters with sacks until learned helplessness kicks in - hence the term. Hopefully it has died out now but I wouldn't bet on it. Henry Blake suggested tying up to a gate post and I know one person locally who "breaks" clients horses by tying them to an upright in a barn and then does what he feels they need to have done to them while they can't run. I don't know how many injuries they have gone home with.
 
Oh I thought it was using sacks like today we would use plastic bags:) Bagging out doesn't quite meet the macho does it;)
I reckon there was a lot of techniques used in the past that may have had an economical urge behind them, which have been continued today by some folk because they don't have the wit to recognize them as cruel. I feel that about the use of spurs, also having to justify the bit to myself.:(
 
Sacking out , in the old sense of the word, still alive and well here in Yorkshire, I m afraid to say. often done to folas to stop them pulling back when they are first tied up. For 'old school' breakers it is just part of the process......
We desensitise our youngsters - slowly! - and with a potential spooky/over sensitive horse go very slowly, and would include rubbing all the body with odd things like pastic bags, ropes etc we use umbrellas too, as you can guarentee they ll see them at shows and freak out!
 
Desensitisation involves invading an animal's space but only as far as it will tolerate that. There is a distance at which we will all tolerate what we fear most and a nearer distance at which we are taken over by total irrational fear. The space inbetween is 'threshold'. Desensitisation involves gradually eroding that threshold without evoking the fear response. As a wise old lady once said to me, "Nothing can remain frightened for ever". So it is a very gentle process (when done properly), sometimes literally only inches a day, and not cruel at all. I am sure the scientists will have some long and complicated words for the process, but I just call a spade a spade!:) Some call it 'approach and retreat'. Harsh treatment is generally counter productive.

I always refused to export my gundogs to the USA because I don't approve their training methods so JillA may well be right. But I have heard about tying a horse and leaving it to work out that it can't use it's strength to escape from several old and experienced trainers I respect here in the UK. There are variations. Some tie to a whippy young tree, others tie a long slippery rope to the horse's head collar, put a turn or two around a stout post, then encourage the horse to move off. The tension on the rope and friction around the post can easly be adjusted by one person tightening or loosening the rope so there isn't a sudden shock. If done properly, I'm told there is no cruelty at all -- and I believe it. The horse learns what all horses should know -- that it is not stronger than it's handler.

Not saying I approve or disapprove of the above, just telling it like it is with the emotional content removed! Morrich Fearna, below, doesn't seem too stressed to me so the threshold has clearly been eroded without evoking the fear response. There's more on YouTube. Another filly was being vetted. The vet wanted her in a dark place so she could examine her eyes. So we threw a coat over her head, the vet then disappeared underneath, and the eye examination was completed. It is not rocket science, just a slow gradual drip-drip process called 'training'.

fearna3_zps0c32a0dd.jpg
 
As a few have said before sacking out teaches learned helplessness - the problem is that that horse will have to learn that for every scary thing it encounters. If you slowly desensitise you develop trust and as a result the horse will trust you when it sees a new scary thing.
 
Dave the dog said:
Aren't they all like that?

Played hide and seek with mine. Park box in paddock, do a bit of lead rope training, unclip rope, run and hide behind box keep very quiet count to a hundred, horse will find you !! lol
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But isn't that cruel? Horses are herd animals and even depriving them of company for 100 seconds could lead to learned helplessness??
 
Yup could be, depends on the horse of course, as a result he's not concerned about boxes. Also the resolution of the deprivation was in his hands so to speak and lead to an exercising of his free will and allowed him to express an opinion. Something that many horse trainers would find abhorrent.
 
I just fill their paddocks with stuff. They are free to explore as they wish. Mostly they look for a day, and then treat it as an everyday occurrence, nothing to worry about, no pressure.

Foals learn from the first day out in the paddock to walk over a pole in a gateway. My foals would jump for fun.

I feed in the fields on tarps. Feed is delivered in plastic grocery bags. I used to walk through the barn with an opened umbrella in my hand, my horses didn't care.

I tie bags, flags, balloons, umbrellas etc, to fences. Cones, boxes, jumps, barrels etc are left in paddocks.

All youngsters are used to being rugged from an early age - therefore saddling is not an issue, nor is girthing.

I deliver hay on tractors, or ATVs, I maintain paddocks with horses in them, so bush hogs, rakes, harrows, rollers hold no fear. If a tree falls down in a paddock I leave it there, then I cut it up, in front of them, chainsaws, trailers no problem.

I deliberately (shock horror) let horses wander around with long ropes trailing on the ground - they learn that when they step on them to put their heads down and move their feet -

I stuff feed sacks with hay and treats and let them play with them - my idea of sacking out ;)

The original sacking out has been described, learned helpessness. I once saw a shockingly distressing video of a horse with a plastic bag tied to his tail and let loose in a round pen. Poor creature. Surely easier to use other methods :(

I had a Paint mare who was broken by a well known western trainer, in the old ways I suspect, she was BROKEN. Very obedient, but I really hate the way she was trained. She wouldn't move without being told. She wouldn't look at me. She was an automaton. She was a very sad, shut down horse.
 
cornbrodolly said:
Sacking out , in the old sense of the word, still alive and well here in Yorkshire, I m afraid to say. often done to folas to stop them pulling back when they are first tied up. For 'old school' breakers it is just part of the process......
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It's not an expression I've ever heard and I am in Yorkshire. I would have said that the process of teaching foals not to pull back when tied up is called "swinging", as in "the youngster has been swung" - fastened with something unbreakable to something immoveable and left more or less to itself to work out that it can't get away. Not the safest method of training imo. Ours have been taught to ground tie with praise and reward/clicker training. They can walk off if they want to but soon find that it is even better to stay where you are put.

Our youngsters have been desensitised to a variety of things, noises and objects by being expected to pass them going to and from their stables in the normal course of their day. No big deal is made, no special place is set up in a special way (although it is amazing what can be found thrown over a gate here). Balloons have been tied to fence posts and tractors/farm machinery/quad bikes are all a regular part of their scenery when grazing. We find that if the handler doesn't make a big deal of it, the horse doesn't either!
 
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I know someone who did what you call "swinging" - tied a yearling to a fixed ring in his stable. He was called away, and in his own worlds "when I got back he was just going cold". Broken neck :(
 
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