deshoeing by barefoot trimmers

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My understanding is that farriers only spend about half a day looking at hoof structure and mechanics. The majority of their time is spent learning how to shape a shoe and work with metal. I have the feeling that relatively a trimmer spends significantly more time learning about the mechanics of the horse and its hoof than that found on a standard farrier training course.

I may well be wrong about this and would happy to be corrected.

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Is this what you honestly believe???
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So how long does a vet study the hoof for?
 
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hi deisel dog andr h t . dont be scared, you have no need to be, and as for H R T. never been to court, never hurt a horse, save horses all over the world, havent time to write books, by the way what do you do and what do you really know about horses feet,appart from what you heard and read. when i said anyone can pm me about my trimming methods it was so i could clarify what i said about trimming being the same although i dont think you would listen to anything ,as you seem to know it all. so you can log off, both of you and i will explain to others. A FULLY transitioned unshod horse will have a nice ring of hoof wall all the way round from heel to heel, to walk on, it will round off at the toe, level with the sole ,either by the trim or natural wear, the bars will be the same as the hoof wall after they turn to form the buttress, they will stay flat for 3/4 inch or so and then slope down to blend with the sole. the sole will be a healthy colour and will have a smiling face shape under the pedal bone, in front of frog[to callus] the frog will be wide and healthy and level with the heels. looking at the foot when standing, the wall will be free of buldges ripples and flares, and if the horse is standing on his own centre of gravity,he will have a straight line through his pastern, the hoof ground angle will be somewhere between 50 and 58 dg[front] this will vary from horse to horse as everything that is alive and growing is unique onto its self. NOW THATis what all trimmers are aiming for, call the trim what you like, use a spoon, sandpaper, you,r teeth, anything, just dont vary from this finished product. IF HRT had pm me that is what she would have got. this trim is for a sound horse, and is not to be confused with my method of dealing with a foundered horse, that is an entirly different situation. i should alsosay that h strasser,s modafied trim is the same with a slightly lower angle. the trim that everyone is confusing is her method of dealing with horses that would be !!!!!d in most cases. i have my own system which i developed in saudi arabia, and it is amasing to see. HANDS UP IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND

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Looking at your first post you clearly told the other person to PM you so that you could tell her how to trim her horse.

Sorry not logged off yet
 
I don't know what to believe, it's what I've heard and no-one has been able to provide me with any different info! I have no idea how long a vet studies a hoof for, why is that relevant to my post?
 
hi deisel dog, why do you keep stating the obvious, and quoting, you are wasting space. the detailed description i gave of a perfect trim is the only finished product on earth ,and the only one that everyone strives for, no matter what tools or what order, or what method you call it, that is it. now if the other user would like to pm me i will send her the details of the trim. then with this info she can get sombody to copy this trim, what about you, you seem to know everything, well perhaps not as you keep quoting, try to think for you,r self. and if you get a trimmer to trim you,r horse you can compare the shape i have described, you could even quote me. never let anyone trim you,r horse any other way, by the way if you,r farrier has not got barefoot trim under his belt, why dont you give him this one. now log off.
 
just a thought, kc pete ramey and the like are experts on everything to do with the horses foot,both sound and unsound, it goes without saying that their students would no be as capable as the teachers , as they have learned what they know from scratch. but here is a solution with the horse in mind. the people who are out there are the farriers, with the tools and training. so any farrier who has not got a barefoot trim, should read what i wrote earlier, he or she could work it out in minutes. it,s dead simple for a farrier, why should the farriers let this happen, learn a trim and do it, call it what method you like. you just get as near to what i explained, with what ever you have to work with, you cant trim what,s not there.
 
To keep you happy I wont quote your last post but your basically saying that your description of a perfect trim is a waste of space? Fair enough.
 
Hi Hoofsculpture. Re. Your trim description. You appear to be describing a basic foot trim, sometimes called "dressing". This can be done prior to fitting shoes or when left unshod. Do not apply hard and unbending rules on trimming. Every horse is an individual. Conformation and type dictate the style of trim. "One size does not fit all" for instantance trying to make an upright horse with boxy foot fit the ideal will lead to long term problems. <font color="red"> No one should ever advise how to trim a horse without being in front of that horse with all the details. You seem to have an interest in trimmming, why not train as a farrier and gain a wider perspective?</font>
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Just to clear up what training a farrier does, most farriers now do a pre-farrier course of one year where they learn metal work and some shoeing theory. All farriers must take a further 4 years 2 months apprenticship. College instruction is divided into 4 study areas, anatomy of the entire horse, physiology (study of how a horse moves), shoe making and practical trimming and fitting. After qualification the Farriers Registration Council runs a contininuing professional development program. Farriers are very restricted legally on how they can advertise hence you don't get the same hype that a unqualified person can spin.
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Hope this give you more faith in the qualifications and expertise of a farrier.
 
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Just to clear up what training a farrier does, most farriers now do a pre-farrier course of one year where they learn metal work and some shoeing theory. All farriers must take a further 4 years 2 months apprenticship. College instruction is divided into 4 study areas, anatomy of the entire horse, physiology (study of how a horse moves), shoe making and practical trimming and fitting. After qualification the Farriers Registration Council runs a contininuing professional development program. Farriers are very restricted legally on how they can advertise hence you don't get the same hype that a unqualified person can spin.
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Hope this give you more faith in the qualifications and expertise of a farrier.

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A qualified farrier is the only person who will ever be allowed near any of my ponies!
Hoofsculptures' posts are naive at best, dangerous at worst....
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hi there settle down and listen ,have no fear they all do the same trim they change the words a little to make it differnt, there is only one way to trim a horse, even srassers trim is the same, she has trim for foundered horses which is radical. but any of her peoplewouldent or could,nt do it they do her modafied trim ,which is same as all the rest. they all blind with science. if you would like can send you my trimfor sound and lame horses, it is easy and i have been saving horses withit for20 years,i you want you can pm me and i will tell you how to trim

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I really hope you are joking.......but have a very sad feeling that you are not!!!
How irresponsable of you you should be ashamed
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Problem is Mary he/she is obviously not ashamed, and indeed quite proud of what they are advocating.

It's highly irresponsible to advise someone to trim their own horses feet, especially given that the poster has never even seen these horses.
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Beth I am with you only a qualified farrier will ever touch my girls feet she has never needed shoes and has never been lame with the farrier trimming her
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Some people really dont deserve horses when there are others amongst us who have had to send theirs away because of circumstances beyond our control
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Just to play devil's advocate, why is it that people think it is not possible to learn how to trim a foot in the space of a week. Do you not think that it is an example of the "just because it's a horse it has to be really complicated" phenomena ?

The fact is you learned to cut your fingre nails within a few attempts. It is possible to show someone how to trim a dog's or any small carnivores claws in an hour or so and learning how to trim the feet of stock animals is not rocket science either and a weeked would be ample time to learn, get some practice in an have a very nice lunch on Sunday.

So why do people think that it takes ages to learn how to trim horse's feet? By trim, I mean reduce excess wear leaving the hoof in a condition where it is able to perform its function. There are a few basic rules and some exceptions worth knowing that you could string out over a weekend and a week's practice would be useful. What you would have not seen in that time is a wide variety of problem feet but that is true throughout medicine - you have to do the job for bit to gain experience, my point is that you can achieve competence and practice with fairly normal animals in a relatively short period of time can't you ?

So can someone tell me why trimming horses feet should take so long to learn ? Where's the complication ? I'd be most interesed to hear views from people who have experience of cattle or sheep ?
 
hi spotties, no what makes you think i,m interested in trimming.. i have been a farrier since 1974, in 1990 i was employed by the saudi royal stud to supervise all hoofcare, both arab unshod and english tb all shod. i was paid to do a study on all hoof problems. i fast froze, dissected, quartered, ang generally cut in slices 70 horses feet. after two years i puplished all my findings. there was no bare foot movement then, other than myself.that i know off. i was then on loan to the spanish riding school in vienna.. in 1994 i went to usa to assist a prominent barefoot trimmer, while there i was employed for 6 months training young nes pierce indians to look after the new breed stock of appaloosa horses. in 1997 i came home to carry on the work i love, and i now work all uk and world wide twice a year . now i would ask you to read my post again. i describe a near perfect hoof[remedial work is a different subject] also you say that trim is the same, b foot and shoe. spotties you would have that rim off in a flash down to sole. you would leave flare on for good nailing,also no advice to be given with out horse. now about hard rules ,there are rules you should stick to no matter what. quote from my post[this will vary from horse to horse] so let me say what never changes. every pedal bone has a different toe angle , these variations should only be seen at dorsal wall. the bottom of pedal bone/sole relatioshop is constant[give or take a little] so unless you intend to try to change the overall shape you must trim, to the sole ie a little above it or level with it as in shoeing. now to boxy feet,little can be done in the short term to correct boxy feet, but as you know over a long period you can slowly lower the heels and back up the toe. but right now where ever the sole is so is the bone. generall y speaking a boxy foot is a deformed foot to some extent and a nd anything you do is very much remedial. i have only writen this as you may think i am some liile know it all full of ALL THE wonderfull advice that they all talk about while tying ribbons on a pony,s mane. well talk again, good
 
To me, the information you present is sensible and coherent but the rules of the forum are that debates are conducted debates without personal abuse. I found your remark to DieselDog offensive too, and some of your previous remarks were rather close to the line.

I should be interested to learn where you published the results of your "study on all hoof problems". That was ambitious of you as many research careers have expended trying to advance knowledge about even a small number of abnormal conditions of the hoof. Of course saying that you froze and cut up 70 horses feet is no big deal, the 'findings' are what matters but you don't give them. I should be delighted to read about them though if you would point me in the right direction.
 
good girl, that will get you a bit more attention, you should,nt give it if you cant take it. learn about the subject before you srart to lecture. read your own poste and see who is abusive
 
Hi Hoofsculpture, I presume that as a farrier you are interested in trimming, it should be a basic requirement. How many near perfect hooves (horses) do you see. If you have to alter something it should be to improve it i.e. remedy a perceived fault. All work should be considered as corrective or remedial, if you cant improve it leave it alone. With regard to flare, a shod need not or indeed should not in normal cases have flare (Yes it may make nailing easier but that's no excuse). Hard rules that vary? I'm not sure on that one. Horses feet can vary, wide flat feet and upright boxy feet fall at opposite ends of a spectrum but I can not agree that either is necessarily deformed. I am interested to hear more about the research you have done, any chance of some details?
 
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My understanding is that farriers only spend about half a day looking at hoof structure and mechanics.

[/ QUOTE ] What a load of poppycock! I've seen my OH's notes from farriery college and I can assure you there is a lot more than half a day's worth there!
 
Hi puddicat. You little devil. What is the meaning of this outrageous post. Are you playing cat and mouse? Do we yet know all we need to know,( let alone all there is to know) about hoof care, and a little knowledge... The hoof is a complex structure and a critical part of the whole (no foot no horse). Some people get quite excited by it all, so I believe. There is even legislation governing it, isn't the law a distant relation of the horse. There are no "rules" on the length of time it might take to be able to trim a given foot. Perhaps its a bit like alligator wrestling, some people wouldn't do it, some couldn't, and some take to it like the proverbial duck to water. I think the answer to your first point is probably yes, and the proof is out there, but like the alligator wrestling, when things go wrong, oo not nice. I would ask any one who does trim feet to get farriery training. Do the time then do the crime. I have had the dubious pleasure of trimming goats and sheep but I'm no expert.
 
If someone can show me how the animal welfare act protects animals from the butchery that we have had inflicted on feet by farriers (all unshod horses used for breeding) including 2 cases of laminitis, I'd be pleased to hear it.
 
Spotties, thank you for taking the time to give me a reply. It's not that I don't like farriers, unfortunately the farriers I have access to in my area have a tendency to be unable to discuss horses feet without either feeling affronted that the owner dares ask a question, patronising to said owner or just down-right rude!

However, should my horse ever need to be shod I would not hesitate to use Clive Meers Ranger as he is very good.
 
Hmmm despite being rather vocal earlier in the post our farrier friend appears to have gone rather silent on this one!

Perhaps if he doesn't want to reveal who he is (which would probably be inevitable if he gave the full reference) he might consider revealing whether his results were published in a refereed scientific journal or a non-refereed publication such as a magazine or periodical.

(I just want to know at which end of my bookshelf I should be looking for them!)
 
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