deshoeing by barefoot trimmers

Sorry, I really don't mean this in a nasty way but what a blooming cool word that is
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thinkelpeep

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I love it!!
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Quote: hi puddycat, you not as dumb as some thinkelpeep

thanks, I'll pass that on to my boss
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...and what about the answer to:

"You've still not either given a reference for where your research was published or answered the less revealing question of whether is was in a peer reviewed journal or a non peer reviewed mag/periodical. I'd quite like to know the answer to at least one of those questions and it seems several other people are interested too!"
 
never used camrosa at all. Heard some good things about it but then heard bad things - but thats really like any product.
Would it help the skin and scarring on the top of her hoof?
We did use some specific cream from the vets to stop/help prevent proud flesh. Think a lot of it was swelling in initial stages but its still enlarged. Just accepted that the foot is wrecked and as long as its stable shes happy.
 
I had a horse sent over from Germany who had run through a barbed wire fence 2 years previously. He had slit his chest and completely knackered his legs. When he arrived at my yard he was completely sound but he had horrendous proud flesh scarring on his legs and the bulb of his heel - resembled black leather.

I asked the owner if he wanted to experiment with the Camrosa and he said yes. So I used it, I honestly can't remember how long for, on his leg and foot scars. Not only did the proud flesh slough off but incredibly the blooming hair all grew back in again!

I generally find that people who put Camrosa down are the ones who have never used it, or have used it incorrectly. I've always been happy with it and have used it for a decade now for many many different injuries.
 
well puddycat, now what makes me think you know more than you are letting on? thank you for not taking any more digs at me, i have been beaten up enough for one day. my work in saudi was the property of the royal stud so please respect that. since that i have worked with a prominent DVM in usa. our work will soon be published. over the past years i have written articles for newspapers ,mags etc, i have also what i call handy notes for trimmers. you can have all of this if you want me to dig it out. you asked about my findings ref frozen feet. well the idea was to find out what vascular differences were evident comparing a laminetic foot with a non lamentic hoof on the same horse. All changes were noted and logged. the actual cause of systemetic laminitis was and still is unclear,but it became evident that apart from antinflamitories and blood thinning chemicals the next best thing that could be done was mechanical adjustmen to remove areas of destructive pressure within the hoof capsule. This is well known to be best practice but contradictory methods are still being taught.
To summarise - obey the horses sole.
 
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it seems several other people are interested too

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Not me. I have read what he has said on here and am satisfied that he knows more than us. I don't think he needs to prove anything but for those interested in reading more on the art of hoof trimming may be very interested...although that I very much doubt as most folks on here are of the opinion that only their farrier will look or touch their horses feet.....so it seems a bit of a waste of Hoofsculptures time to dig these pieces out when barely anyone on here will read them
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spotties, give you,r self a shake, you dropped off. you assume im interested in trimming I TOLD YOU THAT. you ask how many perfect hooves i see NOT MANY THAT IS WHAT IM DOING THERE. you dont understand strict rules and feet vary. then you say that big wide flat feet and upright boxy feet are not deformed in any way. at the risk of repeating myself . when you go to a boxy foot do you say ,now thats lovely we must keep you like that,or would you try to encourage a little natural change[slowly] and when you go to a big foot that is sunken as a result of the bone column pressing down through a big shoe nailed onto a flared foot, do you also not consider leaving a shoe off and taking the outer hoof wall out of play to encourage the lamina to tighten up and lift the bone of the ground. strict rules.obey the horses sole/bone, the hoof angle will vary from hoof to hoof as no two coffin bones are the same[never] but flat is always flat, no exceptions, that is unless you create an unnatural plane such as high heels.
 
hi tia, how the hell are you so smart.i would give you a big kiss but my lips aint long enough. what do you think of me getting such a beating today. i get stuff sent to me from farriers supplies in CANADA they are great guys. what i really want to know is.DO YOU KNOW SANIA TWAIN,excuse the spelling, and can you give me her telephone no. good luck.
 
LOL!! I don't know Shania personally, sorry.
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Yes my farrier back in England used to have me order farriery tools for him over here too. He said the Canadian/American ones were much cheaper and good quality. I told him my nippers were extortionate and cost me $70 ...... he laughed at me, and then told me how much he used to pay for them in England!
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Interestingly enough - we do have barefoot trimmers over here. In fact a new practice has just started up the next road down from me. A few of my friends are using them - I stick with my farrier because I like him and because he does a great job - however I recently found out how much they were being charged for their trims.......more than double what my farrier charges me for mine.
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Can anyone say; is this your experience in England too?
 
Whilst I used a Trimmer I was charged £40 a trim
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Then I trimmed myself for a while but time is precious and I want to spend my spare time riding not trimming. lol.

Now I have found a fabby new Farrier and I now get charged £15. Much better! I will still do any maintenance inbetween. However now I am due to start competing I have got to make a decision on whether to pop shoes on or not?

Part of me wants to experiment and compete shoeless as he is so happy without shoes. I suppose I will have to see how things go when we go cross country training etc. This year is going to be fun, fun, fun!!
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I really would be interested to read it. In the spirit of broadening my knowledge. I may totally disagree with every word written but at least having read it gives me more of a base to argue from.
 
Hi Hoofsculpture. Yes I did drop off. We all need a bit of kip sometimes. I'm back now trying to catch up with all the posts. I'm still of the opinion that different types and conformations in horses are associated with different hoof types. Radio-graphs clearly show a wide variation in the relative dimensions and angles of the pedal bone (P3) in a cross section of breed/type. Some of these configurations (bone shapes) support wider shallow hoof capsules i.e. "flat foot", some are narrower and deeper giving a "boxy foot". I use these terms in this context, and therefore these hooves should not be regarded as deformed. You may also have guessed I'm not a fan of flare. I would doubt if you could get lamina to tighten, I suspect new "tighter" growth would have to replace the existing. Perhaps referring to the lamina lifting the P3 is ambiguous. Force is transferred from the P2 to the lamina. The lamina only transfer resistance to this force. Is not Flat subjective? high certainly is. Is an elephant high Or is a mountain? <font color="red"> </font> Go on don't be shy show us your papers. You say you are a farrier. Are you on the F.R.C. Register?
 
Hi E C W Perhaps a vote would indicate how many people are against it? Bad press has a big effect but can only be classed as anecdotal evidence, I hope we can get down to the bones of it. keep asking straight questions until we get straight answers. Navicular is predominantly a foot conformation/foot balance problem, it can be helped with or without shoes. I will refer you to Puddicats post, as it is spot on as to one reason why horses are shod or not. If your going to read a few books, great, try to get to the nitty gritty, and pass on the spin.
 
Hi E C W hooves (and the rest of the horse) evolved In response to specific environmental behavioral factors. If you change these then then you may have to compensate. Add to these changes with breeding programmes producing horses purely for speed or specific action then things like Rugs, high energy feed and shoes may be essential. We are drifting from a "natural situation" Even if you treat a shire horse like a Shetland it will always be a shire. In answer to your final question I will refer you to Puddicat ( sorry had to do it again, that damn moggie got the cream again) P.S Ask your farrier and may be give it a try, you can always go back to shoes any time
 
mornin spotties , sorry i must have dropped off, which mountain. i hate to quote, but why do you keep repeating what i just said. no two pedal bones are the same, but the under side is always flat on the sole[alittle higher at the back] theunder side of the sole is where ever you put it with you,r trim,ie the heel height. that situation never changes unless you have rotation. the rest is predecided. if the bone angle is low, so will the hoof wall, if the bone has a low angle so will the hoof wall. i dont know why you keep asking me the same questions. flare as you know is stretched lamina, and will only tighten up ir the outward tug is removed ,that way the new growth will grow down new and tight. it you shoe it with out taking the toes well back it will grow down stretched ,why would it not.. if you have not seen a hoof that was previously flat ,sunken and flared, tighten up and rise in the mid ito a concave shape, then you are in for a big supprise. the bone never comes down not ever besause of something the bones did. p3.2,and 1 always work togeather in harmony. if p3 comes down so does p2 and p1...only two thing can let this happen. in order for the bone column to drop, the lamina must stretch or detach to some extent. if the downwart force is very great and the lamina wont yield, and the sole is tough, then all thie converts to a widening of the entire hoof[big wide flat feet] this put constant pressure,[outward] on the lamina which will have to flare. you seem to be more intrested in taking me apart that the horses feet.do you think i know nothing, do you think i have not got the brains to be a farrier, or do you think i have too many brains to be a farrier. what do you care about my profile. just read what i write and you will know that i did,nt learn from a cornflakes box. try not to tell me back what i have just said, have a nice day, i am off towork with a mare with both front p bones out through her feet, would you like to tell me how to do it , or will i send you pictures of how i did it. no matter what shape you,r plate or cup is you will find that it is flat on the table. look at you,r own bare feet, look at the elephant you mentioned ,flat on the floor, every creature on earth flat on the floof no matter what shape they are on the outside,
 
Hoofsculpture I'm defiantly not having a go at you... just enjoying the debate, definitely would love to see the pics of the mare and how you deal with her. When you ask me why do I keep asking the same question are you referring to mine and many other members request for details of your studies. I was only interested as you stated you were a farrier and an expert. If you say categorically that you are not willing to answer any specific question I will respect that and let it go.
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spotties just have a look at the post from tom and gerry and you will see what i am up against ,i am being called a liar. and instead of asking me any question which i would happy tp answer, all people want is to make me out a liar. do i sound like a liar to you. i would not respond to TOM AND GERRY untill they tell me all about them selves, on top of what i already know. i devinitly will not be called a liar. i am getting on well with the mare. i now will not contribute any more to this forum.but if you really would like to see pics you can p m me.
 
spotties , why is it that the only specific questions i am being asked are doubting everything i have said. why does nobody want to know what to do with a foundered horse or something that is a problem to them. this is what is happening all over the world, would be horse experts are only intrested in listening to themselves talking about what they heard sombody else saying and so it goes on. its like kids in school. I HAVE 10P, NO YOU HAVENT ,YES I HAVE, WELL LET ME SEE THEN, it looks to me like nobody has a horse in trouble, if they had ,they would ask advice. i could scan articles i have writen, letters from all over the world asking advice. thank you letters from australia,usa and uk, pictures of feet from everywhere. i have developed a bone support system for rotated bones, but why now should i share all this in a forum that will throw it back in my face. so to all the smart arses, you can wait untill you are at you wits end and have a horse with rotation and abcessing in the sole, where it needs support but mut be accessed every day, then you will wish you had something like the system i have developed. i used it today on the mare with penetration,and she is now walking around the garden without a limp.
 
Hi Hoofsculpture, In a debate people put forward there views in order to be tested, it should never become personal. I've not been offended by anything you have said to me, but I can see how you may have alienated others. The more forcefully you put your opinions the harder others will come back at you.

It would be sad to loose your, or any other members, contributions to this forum. If people meet with differing views they may not leave in complete agreement but perhaps they both will have learnt a little from the other.

I am looking forward to the next topic.
 
"do i sound like a liar to you!"

I dunno, let's have a look should we - In your CV you said:

"i was paid to do a study on all hoof problems. i fast froze, dissected, quartered, ang generally cut in slices 70 horses feet. after two years i puplished all my findings."

Now I like learning about hooves so I asked for the references because I'm interested to learn what you did, why, and what the outcome was. I suspect that is the reason other people asked you too. However, I did find it a bit strange because if you had published the information in any reputable journal or well known magazine I would have almost certainly have known about it. So after *repeated* requests you say:

"my work in saudi was the property of the royal stud so please respect that. since that i have worked with a prominent DVM in usa. our work will soon be published."

So am I right in assuming the statement you made in your CV about your having published the findings of study involving sectioning hooves *is* *not* *true*? It's interesting that it is only you that has suggest that you have been accused of lying. My understanding of a liar however is someone who knowingly says things that are not true. So you tell me how I should interpret this.

Earlier on in post #1724992 you said "you should,nt give it if you cant take it". So we've watched you give your detractors a hard time but it seems as soon as somebody want to challenge you we get:

"why is it that the only specific questions i am being asked are doubting everything i have said. "

I think its called critical debate and its what people do when they are trying to establish the quality of information that is being handed out to them. It happens in politics, law, science and many other areas of life. So perhaps you shouldn't say things if you can't take people scrutinising them and trying to establish whether they may be right or wrong, true or false.
 
crikes,how did i miss this
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i use a farrier on my horses,always have,most likely always will.

my farrier i used to start with trains others,i used him for 15 years then moved onto someone he trained.

he is very good with my horses,they have never gone lame from trims/shoes.

he tidied up fizzes feet for free last time he came out to do jay.
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