Designer dog breeds...

CaveCanem said:
Which health test results are getting worse?
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It isn't the test results, it's the occurrences of the problems which are being tested for. The question is, Is health testing reducing the occurrences of testing-specific disease? Are breeders, armed with "Test results", actually producing healthier stock? Amongst those breeds with particularly small gene pools, does the practice of "Health testing" actually resolve any of the problems?

Questions, that's all and I'm more than happy to receive the answers.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
It isn't the test results, it's the occurrences of the problems which are being tested for. The question is, Is health testing reducing the occurrences of testing-specific disease? Are breeders, armed with "Test results", actually producing healthier stock? Amongst those breeds with particularly small gene pools, does the practice of "Health testing" actually resolve any of the problems?

Questions, that's all and I'm more than happy to receive the answers.

Alec.
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Lancashire Heelers being a rare vulnerable breed have a small gene pool,, as a breed they can have PLL which is a heredity disease. There is a now a DNA test for it and your dog can be either clear,carrier or affected. To breed clear to clear would seem the way to go but by doing this you are actually making the gene pool smaller and could end up with something else just as bad. You can breed clear to carrier and will not have any dogs affected.

Dobermanns can suffer from VWD again another heredity disease, but because the gene pool is so much bigger this disease is slower becoming less of a problem.

Problems arise when unscrupulous breeders breed without testing making it very difficult to eradicate it all together.
 
CaveCanem said:
Which health test results are getting worse?
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Dobiegirl said:
Lancashire Heelers being a rare vulnerable breed have a small gene pool,, .......

Dobermanns can suffer from VWD again another heredity disease, but because the gene pool is so much bigger this disease is slower becoming less of a problem.

Problems arise when unscrupulous breeders breed without testing making it very difficult to eradicate it all together.
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Now that I'm properly awake(!), what I'm wondering is with the numerically reduced breeds, so by health testing and reducing the available gene pool even further, so are we making matters worse? The Doberman, for instance, isn't a particularly popular dog in that we don't see that many of them, or Heelers for that matter, so if we reduce the availability of suitable parents, are we not then exacerbating the problem?

I suspect that the only reliable way of eradicating any known complaint, is that breeders avail themselves of a focused and genetics based breeding plan which is put in place by the Breed Society, and only those dogs which are born of this plan, are accepted by the Kennel Club, and for registration.

I'd agree that if a dog is found to be a carrier or is in any way affected by an inheritable complaint, then cross breeding isn't likely to eradicate that threat, I wouldn't have thought. I'd also agree, thinking about it, that whilst hybrid vigour is a realistic reality, if parents are used with known flaws, then that would cancel any benefits.

It would make us wonder how we arrived with the flawed genes in the first place, but perhaps as there are few scientists amongst us, then we'll have to stay wondering!

I've no real answers, because I have no real understanding of the questions. I do know this though, I suspect that we're doing no better than treading water.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
I suspect that the only reliable way of eradicating any known complaint, is that breeders avail themselves of a focused and genetics based breeding plan which is put in place by the Breed Society, and only those dogs which are born of this plan, are accepted by the Kennel Club, and for registration.
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Not coming at this from the angle of a breed with a small gene pool, but appreciate there is a lot of bottlenecking on certain lines.

GSD breed organisations both in the UK and Europe have been acting off their own bat on the health testing issue for many years.
The GSD fraternity in the UK helped introduce hip scoring in the UK through Dr Malcolm Willis a bit longer than 20 years ago :p ;)
In the UK the Kennel Club has been lobbied for years only to register progeny from low scoring stock. However they continue to register puppies born to animals with horrendously high scores, the KC will say, 'well, at least they are health testing' - these animals are almost exclusively either 'old English Alsatian' lines or from the off-colour (white, blue, liver) breeders who often do not prize working ability, make of that what you will.

There are plenty of good, progressive GSD breeders doing a whole battery of tests off their own bat and from their own pockets, showing and working their dogs, without any guidance from the KC, because they want to improve the health of the breed and not breed from unhealthy animals.
However, they a do still register their dogs with the KC.

Those who want to remain allied to the Kennel Club may do so and try to make the change from within, there are also breed organisations operating in the UK which are allied to the breed organisation in Germany and carry out health tests and working qualifiactions under their remit instead of or alongside their kennel club activities.

In Europe, it is quite different, as you can imagine, and people are encouraged to use studs with a low ZW number, which combines the health test results of the progeny. The lower the ZW number, the better the combined health tests of the progeny.

Anecdotally, we have always bred from or sourced dogs from generations of low hip (and more recently) elbow scored parents. We have never had a dog with bad hips or elbows. Again, make of that what you will!!
 
I'm not a fan, mainly because so many clueless idiots have jumped on the 'designer' cross breed bandwagon, breeding god knows what with zero health testing and no awareness that they should have health tested the parents. The 'hybrid vigour' nonsense also annoys me: already mentioned, hybrid=two different species being crossed. The non-shedding promise is also tosh. People are taking on these crosses without looking at the future of committing to a dog and rescues are seeing an increase in them being dumped, if you look at many rescues, including my local one.

Cross breed for a purpose, don't do it because it earns big bucks.
 
GeeGeeboy said:
Doodles, cock-a-poos, Cavachons, Jugs, etc etc. what are your views? As a dog groomer I see a lot of these new fad designer dogs . They usually come with a hefty price tag and a promise of hybrid vigour and are said to be hyper allergenic .
There are so many thousands of rescue dogs that are often cross breeds in centres all over the uk and also many existing pedigree breeds that are becoming endangered so why the need for all these new designer cross-breeds? Would be interested to hear your thoughts...
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Just out of curiosity, what's prompted you to ask :)
 
I work at a vets which uses a large database - lovely fancy pull down menus in which to find several breeds listed. Curiously, labradoodle and puggle are listed -Minature Poode or Welsh Terrier were not (til bloomin added it!!!).

Does anyone else find that disturbing?

Another anomaly which I thought strange - that there was Aberdeen Terrier (a name long since obsolete). I checked to see if Poltallach Terrier was there - fortunately not. Perhaps I should have looked up Caniche or Barbet?

Sorry, off on a tangent.

Personally I don't have a huge issue with breeding cross breed dogs provided that a) they have homes guaranteed for the litter b) the parents have had some form of health screening ie hips/eyes etc c) that the breeders are available to give GOOD advice re socialisation, grooming, feeding d) breeders are available to take back unwanted pups for the life of the pup e) consideration is given to the actual breeding and why they are mating a particular pair - not just mixing the gene pool for the general helluvit

However, all that criteria I feel is equally important for ANY breeder of pure breed dogs as well.
 
I have a cross breed, shihtzu x poodle. She's the best natured dog I've ever owned and will look for another puppy of the same breed when the time comes. Doesn't matter to me the price difference or not as the case may be of her and a pedigree dog as I was so pleased with her. I am obviously paying for the nature of the dog.
 
But hj, as she is a mongrel you have no idea that another mongrel of the same cross will have the same character. I appreciate it is the same for any dog but most pure breeds have similar characteristics, once you cross them you could get anything.
The yard I work at has a similar cross, but a rescue so we don't know for sure and I must say she is a lovely little thing, well 'ard though, loves ratting and acts more like a jack russell than the jack russell she lives with!
 
Unfortunately that is not the case - I have greyhounds, which have characteristics bred into them over many many generations. If I were to cross one of my greyhounds with (for example) a collie, simple genetics says that I would not be as likely to replicate the same characteristics in two different litters than if I crossed my greyhound with another greyhound.
 
hjohnson93 said:
Yes but I will get the same cross, giving me just of much chance of having the same characteristics as if I was to buy a pedigree dog.
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Unfortunately it probably won't work quite like that. Your little dog may have inherited the majority of her characteristics from her poodle genes, there is no guarantee when the next cross is born that the pups won't inherit mainly shih tzu characteristics. Whereas breeding of 2 animals never has a guaranteed outcome, as Levrier says, if you cross 2 greyhounds you have a pretty good guarantee you will get greyhound characteristics. :)
 
I have very mixed feelings on this as I have a 'sprollie', English Springer X Welsh Collie. She was not bred on purpose but bitch owner left his working springer at home as she was in season whereby the working collie from the farm behind his broke into her kennel without his knowledge and needless to say she produced a litter. This dog is a fantastic example of a cross breed and has inherited the best from both mum and dad and if I could have another one exactly like her I would jump at the chance.
 
I don't have an issue with a cross bred dog at all generally speaking). I just find it amazing that people will pay a fortune to buy a dog simply because it has a silly name. I also find it silly that people will call them anything but a mongrel, and argue that they're not. Its pure snobbism. Everybody wants "a breed" or a "design" nowadays, more than the dog in half the case. When I was younger a crossbred dog would cost you about £10, if that.
 
I have a labradoodle and she doesn't shed. We got her because my other half suffers allergies (same reason we have Bengal cats) and because on speaking to many people about them, they were meant to generally be very good with young children. She's been a fantastic dog for us and is our young sons best friend, they get on extremely well. She's a great mix in my opinion. At the end of the day, its the end result I care about - temperament (and healthy obviously) is what is most important for a family dog. I don't see any wrong in it at all (as long as they're bred well), in fact its all the nasty breeding they do for some pure breds that I disagree with purely for the end result of looks. I really don't get why so many people slag off these "designer breeds", its really quite sad. Would I pay good money for what in my opinion is the perfect dog, yep of course, why wouldn't I? I'm not spending all that money "purely because it has a silly name" which some of you seem to think... how ignorant.

People don't slag off cross bred horses so I really don't get why its acceptable to do so on this forum regarding dogs.
 
70% of labrador poodle crosses shed -some worse than any labrador - so why didn't you choose one of the proven non shedding breeds?
The poodle is only one and there are several others. Did you not look?
There is no such thing as a "bred well" crossbreed on sale.
 
May I ask MagicMelon a question? This is in no way meant to provoke but was wondering why you chose a labradoodle over a pure bred poodle if the main reason was because of an allergy. Poodles are very good with children too.
 
i have a bedlington......... he is a pedigree, he does not shed. We are very lucky with bedlingtons as they have not suffered the cross breeding that poodles have. Yes we have CT within the breed, but the breedclub is active in removing / reducing that and bedlingtons are one of I beleive only 3 uk breeds that have not changed in their breed standards over time. You can see a picture of a 1700 bedlington and a 2014 bedlington and still see the same body and face. Yes the clip and grooming of the show beddy is different, but clip that hair off and the physical shape is the same, both working and show. The beddys are crossed with whippets, and greyhounds to produce a very desirable lurcher. A bedlington to a whippet creates a seriously fast dog, who can turn on a sixpence, and take down a rabbit, a hare, a small deer, put a beddy to a greyhound, and you can bring down a deer. But they are not crossbred to anything and everything to create a designer dog and I suspect the majority of bedlingtons are put to other bedlingtons. But I cannot see why people would not choose a purebred bedlington over a crossbred 'poo'. Everything people claim about the 'labradoodle' is true of the beddy, but I know his heritage, I know his DNA through biopsy and swabs, I know his breed lines and should I decide to breed I will check his ' mates' breedlines and their DNA to ensure compatability and to produce healthy CT free puppies. I loved my mongrels, each and every one, for their individuality and personality, but i would never pay more than a rescue price for a mongrel......... regardless of their designer name
 
Ok Magicmelon, some people do have genuine reasons for getting them, but 95% don't especially if it has "poo" in the name!

I have two ISH horses. I always describe them as half ID half TB and one with a bit of Holstein, because that's what they are. Has been my fave type of horse long before ISH was created.. ISH is another word that was created to make something sound posher (when it really didn't need to as it was great when it was just a cross bred).
 
I personally have no problem with people breeding as long as people breed to enhance the breed, and there is a market for their produce. Some of the best dogs are cross breeds, we have one and she is fantastic. We got her as a rescue pup. There seem to be too many people making these " designer" breeds that have no clue whatsoever just to make a quick buck.
 
Bosworth said:
a large dog, that produces enormous shits........... great dane, cross poodle......... why, why bloody why???????????????????????
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lol, i don't understand why people would want to breed those two breeds together. Both breeds are beautiful as they are, they definitely do not need to be crossed! i used to have a dane, now own a mini poodle, so love both breeds, but would not want a cross!

Crugeran Celt said:
I can only guess at a greatdane x poodle? Not sure what they may look like?
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a quick google search reveals something along these lines:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images25/GreatDanoodleGreatDanePoodleMixLola14WeeksOldPuppy2.jpg

ETA. a couple more great dane x poodle crosses, i personally would say that they weren't very successful but everyone has different views
http://www.gentlegiantsrescue.com/images/Melody and Doodle sized 700.jpg

http://www.imagepuppy.com/shared/0302034de23bea34193d922599181e8d.jpg
 
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twiggy2 said:
saw German shepherd cross poodle puppies for sale yesterday-madness
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I hope they find homes that will keep their brains busy! Slightly off topic, I was just looking at the facebook pages of a local rescue. They have posted pictures of a nice looking lurcher and someone has asked what cross he is. The reply from someone at the rescue is that he is not a cross he is a lurcher!
 
MurphysMinder said:
I hope they find homes that will keep their brains busy! Slightly off topic, I was just looking at the facebook pages of a local rescue. They have posted pictures of a nice looking lurcher and someone has asked what cross he is. The reply from someone at the rescue is that he is not a cross he is a lurcher!
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I'm thinking that combination would end up criminally insane without proper stimulation!
 
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