Desperate for help, can the vets really get it wrong

I apologise but I haven't read the whole of this thread. So sorry if I post in error.

OP enquired if vets ever get it wrong and regarding suspensory damage.

The answer to the first is yes all the time. The second is I had a horse with long term suspensory damage. Had it for years. Regularly scanned to check if it was deteriorating which sometimes it did. But it never got better.

Then I turned her out onto a track system aka Jamie Jackson's Paddock Paradise. (but a poor man's version). A few months later she had another scan and we were all gobsmacked to find the injury was healing. This was YEARS after the original and subsequent injuries and when all vet treatments had failed.

And yes she came fully sound
 
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FREESTYLER said:
Yes they can get it wrong for sure.
Before he went downhill..............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WunOkKWKrsA
assessing...........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Tvr_LwBUM
rest..........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq4Nn-UCwBA
finding his feet again!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ijg4xxj54
and here we are today.....!!!...2 years ago I was told never to ride him again...I just now take each day as it comes xx
Click to expand...

Freestyler, he is very special :O) lovely

Everyone.. thank you so much for your replies. I have spoken with my own vet today, who pretty much echo'd what SD had to say. I have asked him to have a look at Rogers website and to come back to me with what he thinks, I have now asked new market for all scans and imaging as all I have is a written report.

Tomorrows plan is to contact some of Rogers previous customers and also to contact someone like Rockley farm or someone else to advise on barefoot, as if I am turning her away I want to get the feet sorted. I am hoping over the next few weeks to compile as much information as possible to make an informed decision. I will keep you all updated and if I turn away I will start a blog to report our progress or lack of because the most frustrating thing about all of this is trying to find the information and if whatever happens to me and my baby girl can help someone else then I will be happy.

So medals in the post for everyone, I love reading the competition and lesson reports but there is a real fountain of knowledge in this forum and for that, regardless of the outcome I will be eternally grateful.
 
Yes vets can get it sooo wrong. My then 5yo KWPN was lame behind. Very well known large equine practice diagnosed PSD and started shockwave. I was really really not convinced as he looked lame higher up and got Jenny Hall for a second opinion. She was equally unconvinced and suggested a bone scan - 3 chips in his stifle! Surgery at Rossdales and sound horse. Go with your gut instinct!
 
Statitistical evidence that they do get it wrong!!

Vets were asked to evaluate a horse for lameness -

"When lameness was scored after a full lameness evaluation
and selecting each limb as lame or not using the AAEP lameness
scale, our evaluators (vets with an average of 18.7 years experience) were in agreement 72.9% of the time overall, 76.2% for the forelimbs and 69.5% for the hindlimbs. "

28-30% of the time, vets do not agree with each other on lameness - very interesting!

The full article is here:
http://caliban.ingentaselect.co.uk/fstemp/1daeae352814d7707049c7d354c77b4f.pdf

Plus see this article: Thoroughbred "I Want Revenge" Recovering Well from Ligament Injury - http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=16528
 
Terri, Just wondered if you could let me know what conculsion you came to as I am in exactly the same position you were in. Horse has not yet seen Roger Meacock but he is in my area in a month and he assures me there is a good chance the horse can get back to competition. It is very difficult as you prepare yourself for the worst following vets conclusion then Roger comes along and puts everything 'up in the air'. Like you if there is a chance then I will give him the time - you just don't know who to believe. Perhaps you could PM me.

Thanks
 
I've just read this nearly 2 months after having my horse PTS with severe damage to hind suspensories (plus SI issues, back pain we couldn't seem to fix, and intermittent undiagnosed front limb lameness), and feeling sick that I'd not tried this Roger Meacock.

You've got nothing to lose, really, by trying him out (other than money).

I *think* my horse's suspensories were too far gone. I'm not going to sleep for months now :(

Good luck. Please keep us posted.
 
I'm really sorry if I've caused you sleepless nights BeckyD. Please don't feel bad I think there are a lot of people who are very sceptical about what can be done and it sounds as if your horse had several issues going on.

I guess you are right I have nothing to lose - I just would like to find out as much as I can beforehand. I would be amazed if he can help as the horse is so wrong - but I think I will go and listen to what he hs to say and take it from there.
 
Hi Bluespace, I've gone through exactly the same situation.

You'll be able to view my previous posts on the situation with my Hanoverian 5 year old - diagnosed with PSD in all 4 legs in early Sept, Newmarket recommended to put him down. I was horrified. I did lots of research while he was still there (they were awaiting my decision). I felt it best to take more time to research things (I couldn't make a snap decision about my baby's life, I didn't feel it was my right to take that away from him).

So, I brought my horse home - to a new home that only involved grass and more grass, and 24-7 outdoor living. Roger Meacock came out to see him, 2nd week in Sept 2010 (it feels like ages ago)...and said this horse will be fine - give him 6 months out in the field. He also said his pelvis was out of alignment (he fixed it), and said his foot balance was all wrong (that's been sorted over the last two shoeings), and said to get his teeth sorted asap.
I've done everything he said to the letter.

I went to visit my horse today, brought him in for some grooming and lovin' - he looks brilliant - he doesn't even look like he's been off work!! He is still solid muscle, and has actually filled out quite a bit - his shoulders have broadened and his neck has gotten wider, and his coat is glossy. He looks spectacularly well!! His feet look great, he's completely sound, and very happy. I know he'll be fine.

The plan is to leave him out until about Feb/March, then will get him reassessed by Roger Meacock. What I can say now, is that my horse looks completely sound and healthy. The yard owner doesn't believe that there is anything wrong with him! :)) and things can only get better.

Trust your gut, give your beloved horse a chance, and keep us up to date on your progress.

Good luck
x
 
Becky, Don't let this bother you as we are no where near there yet. I am getting my mare's suspensories re scanned by my local vets and compared to all the images we have from new market in the next couple of weeks. We are almost 6 months of grass turnout now and I am hoping that there is some improvement and not the other way.. I followed your posts though and I know what a battle you had for a long time with your boy there are no certains with what I am doing and there is a good chance I will end up having to make the worst decision anyway :O(

Bluespace.. I don't really know what to say, I am a person that likes black and white I have struggled with getting my head around going against vets advice but i am now hoping to prove them wrong...

Roger Meacock talks sense, common sense... I don't think you need to get him out tho, just make sure your horses feet are balanced and the teeth are done by someone decent, get a great physio on your side. Roger came out and said exactly the same to me as her did to sugar cubes and also said pelvis was out etc but a few things bothered me, he didnt ask to watch my mare walk and he is not an equine vet.. My own vets are not fans of his but I am not fair enough down the line to comment really and to be fair it will be bias anyway because lets face it, if my horse comes sound i'll love him and if I end up having her put down i'll most likely think it was all a load of..

However like I said earlier, it is of course not a load of.. it is common sense. I don't know your horses story but I guess it is all on a very individual basis. I think there is a place for both the vets and the less conventional treatments and of course time is a great healer..

I will keep you updated and let you know what the scans say.

x
 
Yes, vets can get it wrong. I spent £5.5k of my & my insurance company's money trying to find why Adrian was so sluggish, including initial vets, 8 days at Rossdales & a more upmarket vets. 1st vet...spavins. Rossdales...NO spavin - he's got PSD. Upmarket vets...no idea. Horse was treated for spavin & PSD which made NO difference; all 3 vets said PTS / perhaps he's just not the horse he was / perhaps you're completely insane, you batty old woman.

[With the help of everyone on here, we found out that it was actually EPSM & he is now happily employed at a trekking centre run by a lady who's an EPSM specialist.]

The point being that these hi-tech tests 'diagnosed' spavin (or not, depending on the vets) AND PSD, but treating them made f-all difference cos it wasn't the root cause. And TBH, I was competing BS & BD most w'ends, so show me a horse in full work & competing a lot which DOESN'T have anything at all on scans & x-rays?

I really hope you get your horse right...everything crossed.
 
I have come across Roger Meacock while have my horses done by Bob Livock and i have a lot of time for him. Bob Livock has a fantastic repuation as a dentist and has a lot of respect for Roger, from knowing Bob he is not the sort of person to rate any old person. I have seen Roger at work as I was at Talland and Pammy really does swear by him and comes out dancing the morning after one of his treatments, he knows what he is talking about it and if you can give your mare the chance! As long as she is have more good days than bad days then its right to give her chance. I would also add a vote for carniosacral therapy that helps stimulate the bodies natural healing systems, but as R said you need to get everything else straigh first. I have too cases where the vets have not felt they could help anymore and my craniosacral lady has helped. One that punctured his hind suspensary I was told would just be the worlds most expensive lawnmower for the rest of his life, I got this lady in and them gave him a year of Dr Green, he is now learning flying changes! the other had a solid fluid mass on his knee that they could not op on for various reasons so said leave it, again i got her in and its nearly gone!! Its worth a try. Vets have their place, i have so much respect for my vets they are brilliant and realistic, but there are other things out there as well. Good luck and keep us all posted. Even if it does not work at least you can say you gave her everychance possible.x
 
Hi,
Re the vets can get things wrong - yes and can't we all!
My TB did a wonderful job with a back suspensory when we cantering around a field and he put his back leg down a rabbit hole which opened up underneath him.
We had a cintagraph which showed he also had massive damage to superficial gluteal muscle, biceps and gluteal fascia - in other words his bum muscles and ligaments.
The vet was superb -he said you have two options:
1. Turn him away for 12 months after 4 weeks of massage on his bum and then start road work and see what happens. He said there was not much point having another cintagraph 'cause if he was sound he was fixed!
2. Have him PTS
I went for option 1, and after 12 months he was fine. He never jumped again because his back muscles never really recovered sufficiently to land over a fence, but he changed career and went to AM dressage and he NEVER had a problem with the supensory ligament again. He lived to 32.
If you go for the first option, I would also now recommend Bowen on the muscles above 'cause they will probably be in a bit of stress.
Good luck.
Bryndu
 
If you can afford to I'd give Roger a chance. At least for your own peace of mind you will know you've tried everything. I know if it was me and I had her put down now on Sue Dyson's advice there would always be that niggle of doubt at the back of my mind- should I have gone with Roger's advice and given her another chance.
Good luck with what ever you decide. Keep us posted
 
OMG someone sent me this link because last Dec my Cob was diagnosed with damage in both hind Suspensory ligaments and Collateral damage in his fore offside leg. He had X-rays, Nerve blocks, Bone Scans and still Sue had no idea what was going on 100% so I opted for the MRI scan on his fore leg so I knew exactly, what I was informed was the worst damaged leg and the best option for recovery. I never really was told what was the best recovery option for his hind legs as Sue felt they were nothing compared to the front leg damage.

We tried 6 months of box rest with a tiny turn out paddock from his stable. He needed to be allowed to stretch but not allowed to blow! A horse being a horse, he rested really well considering but he did have his days when he flipped on a circle with me desperately trying to stop him, avoiding the back legs in my face.

Went back to Sue Dyson AHT for an assessment after 6 months and on the corner he was lame. Although at this point she was happy for me to hack him out straight lines and advised turning him out for a year to see what our future holds.

This thread has given me a little bit of hope. Im no eventer but the thought of being able to perhaps do a little jump now and again would make my life so complete again.

I shall now keep everything kept crossed. Please keep me posted.
 
Yep, it happens ... friend's vet told her her horse was "depressed" and should be put out in the field - she got taken to the vet hospital that night, was on drips etc for a week because her liver was failing.
 
If your not sure about the opinion of the vet or just have a doubt get a 2nd opinion - it can't hurt! Vets can get it wrong! My friends horse was lame and the vet told her it was down to a problem with his fetlock - turns out he had fractured his neck!!!! Then the same vet came out for insurance purposes after the horse had been on rest and just coming back into work and told the owner that he needed to be shot then and there! She got a 2nd opinion and they advised that as they hadn't tried all the available options it was insane just to shoot him as they had only tried rest!!
 
Someone told me to have a look at this thread as it sounds like I am in a very similar situation to you. My horse has chronic PSD in both hinds as well as SI. I've had 3 years of trying to get him right and have not got anywhere. Vet came out last week to confirm PSD pain has returned and so he is now retired to grass. I am considering having him pts - which breaks my heart.
I have contacted Roger by email fo which he has replied saying that he could come to me for initial assessment and depending on what he finds, if he thinks he can help then probably best if my horse went to them for a months intensive treatment at the cost of £1,200 + vat.
Obviously I am very dubious that I am going to be ripped off. I can't actually find much on the internet of people saying that he has actually cured a horse of such problems, and it worries me that he is not an equine vet.
I really don't know if it best to just call it quits. That money would go a long towards another horse.
 
Hi Louise, sorry to hear about what you are going through.

What did Roger say the course of therapy would be if your horse stayed there for one month for treatment? Would your insurer cover the cost? If they will cover it, I think it's worth giving it a go. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a denerving operation, and will not be as invasive. Can you ask him to provide names of clients who have done something similar - and ask for contact details so you can chat about their experiences / and their horse's outcome after a month of intensive therapy at Roger's.

On another note, my 5 yr old boy has now been off work for 4 months, and is looking superb. I decided to book an appt with a local vet to watch me trot him up (it's on Friday.), and I'll have the vet do some flexion tests. Fingers crossed that it all goes well. I just want to guage where we are in the recovery. The physical impression he gives is of a completely sound horse, so hopefully that carries through to the vet's exam. I felt it important to get an unbiased opinion of my horse from an equine vet who does not know his past diagnoses / problems. I'll let you all know how that goes.

Good luck to all of you who are going thru difficult times with your horses...
 
He hasn't said yet, hes going to come and assess him where I am when he gets enough clients in the area, as I am a good 4 hours drive away.
The initial assessment is £80 + vat + travel so I happy to pay for that and then once I meet him I shall ask all the questions.
He's already had a faciotomy neurectomy Feb 08 & now it seems that the nerve has regrown, so my insurance claim in well & truely over.
I am worried that because the problem has been going on so long now and also who know what other damage has been done, but he couldn't feel it because of the denerving.
Sounds like you boy is doing well, fingers crossed.
 
My 15yo mare went lame and was diagnosed with hind suspensory desmitis..following op and all summer off was still unsound. (did not return for follow up as she was by then uninsured and unsound). After a further 12 months off she appeared sound and I started to hack her out, she was fine. I didn't want to risk jumping her again and found her a happy hacking loan home last year where she has been sound and happy to date! Time is a great healer..
 
I do agree that time is a good healer - but I gave my boy a full year off, brought him back into work very,very slowly in the Spring of this year. Seemed to be going OK but then there was a steady decline. He was sound when I was well into riding him, but certainly not now. No obvious signs of new injury but he does come sound when suspensories are blocked....
Unfortunately time doesn't always work or at least not in my horses case.:(
 
GOOOOOOOD NEWS!!! From PSD & a Death Sentence to - sound and passing a 5 stage vetting... in the space of 4 months.

My 5 yr old boy just passed a 5 stage vetting. He is completely sound. The vet told me that PSD is "a bull***** diagnosis when they can't find anything else wrong". Actually my boy had the works in Newmarket in Aug - xrays, bone scans of whole body over a course of 4 days, and they could not find any issues at all. On the final day, they diagnosed PSD, the report stated that upon ultrasound examination, that there was "evidence of severe damage to the suspensory ligaments." Only "evidence". No proof. Also, no ultrasound images were supplied to my vet or to me to back up the diagnosis. Also, a bill for £4,500 for all the tests that didn't find anything. Funnily enough, they also stated in the report that the horse was lazy in his work. No guff...he was actually lame at the time.

So, to recap the timelines:

Mid Aug 2010 - diagnosed in Newmarket with severe PSD in all 4 legs - recommendation to do the denerving operation, or put him down immediately

Late Aug 2010 - I brought him back from clinic and put him straight out in a field, where he has been living out 24-7. Out in field with minimal interation with people until mid-Oct.

Mid Oct 2010 - brought him into yard, loose schooled him, he was a happy, joyful maniac, with absolutely no signs of lameness.

Early Nov 2010 - I call out an unbiased vet, who does not know the history, to ask for a lameness assessment and 5 stage vetting. The horse passed with flying colours. Subsequently I told the vet that my horse had been diagnosed with PSD, and he said "it's a bullshit diagnosis, there is nothing wrong with this horse". He said they call it PSD with they can't find anything else wrong.

Now, I am shocked that the Newmarket clinic told me to put him down. I told a couple of friends, and they were equally appalled and said I should phone the clinic and tell them they should be ashamed of themselves.

Anyway, I wanted to update you all, so that you know the full story, the beginning, middle and end of my experience with PSD. Please give your horses a chance, don't take as gospel what the so-called "expert vets" say. DO trust your gut instinct, and DO get a second or even third opinion. I am so glad I trusted my instincts, my horse would be in horse heaven if I had listened to Newmarket's advice. Now, I have a sound, happy horse, ready to start working again, after passing a 5 stage yesterday. YIPPPPPEEEE!!! What a huge relief. Just don't give up hope. And feel free to contact me / PM me. I am happy to support anyone else going through what I went through.
 
Only thing I would say with PSD is that generally the horse will come sound with rest but it will recur with sustained work in a lot of cases unless it has been treated in the interim.

But for those with happy stories that's great, really pleased for you :)

My mare has/had PSD in her off fore, first diagnosed in August, has had shockwave treatment and been on box rest since. Started walking five weeks ago and is going to start turnout again next week. Fingers crossed it doesn't recur.
 
Sorry, I forgot to mention some other bits and pieces in the recovery timelines above, it wasn't just rest that sorted out my boy.

1) Roger Meacock came out, and gave his pelvis an adjustment - his pelvis was unbalanced / uneven

2) the foot balance has been addressed & corrected in the past 3 shoeings, he was described by Newmarket as being "long in the toe" at the time of his diagnosis - this was down to using a farrier that was new to me & my boy, considered mandatory by the livery yard we were at.
Since my boy has been living out in the field, he has been brought in every 4 weeks by my old farrier for shoeing, and his feet are looking great again, much smaller, more compact, strong and more upright.

The foot balance correction and the adjustment of the pelvis PLUS the field rest is what has worked in my particular case. The teeth are next to be done, before he gets a bit in his mouth, this will be sorted this week.
 
Have had 2 written off at Newmarket.

1 had kissing spines, collateral in front feet and 2 suspensories. Was given shockwave and 1 1/2 years off out in the field. Still lame at the end of it so was PTS

1 had done 3 suspensories and had bony changes in front feet. Given 1 year off out in field. Is back in much more gentle work, sound but has lost a lot of athletic ability eg he cant jump much anymore as it obviously causes him discomfort.
 
When it comes to tendon damage etc, time is a great healer. With year-Long insurance periods everyone is in a rush to sort the problem now, and do everything to treat it now. However a year, 18months, 2 years at grass can make all te difference.

Yes, vets can get it wrong. My old horse was terribly misdiagnosed, and the vet in question treated me like an idiot she I questioned her. On his being pts five months later I found out from another vet at the practice that half of the background story to the injury wasn't even in the history - she didn't think it was an injury to the shoulder/back, she thought it was an abscess, or possibly knee arthritis, and therefore included nothing I'd said about out incident in the quicksand which caused the injury!!

Refuse to use her now.
 
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