Desperate help for a friend please?

[vhf]

Hi,
I'm a dog lover but not owner so only lurk in here, but a friend is in a mess with her young dog (from memory, about 12 months, GSD cross) so I offered to post in here in case anyone has a clever suggestion. They are sensible intelligent people, and genuinely thought - and were advised - that the dog and they would be a good fit. This is what she has told me:-

Post away – we are willing to try anything….
He is a gorgeous dog and we’ve had advice from ‘time’ to ‘euthanasia’ and obviously there is no way we want that…. We will consider anything to avoid that.
But, we’ve been to so many different trainers, whispers, behaviourist etc (some clicker training some not) and everyone is so opinionated and says everyone else is wrong…. Basically he needs loads and loads of training – more than we can manage or provide. He has started attacking other dogs and chasing herds of cows so we can’t walk him off the lead and we’re terrorising everyone in the local village. And then he bit our son up both legs and arms and we still don’t know why – no inkling of aggression to any size people at all before or since.
The charity we got him from can’t take him back and RSPCA won’t take him without yet another behaviourist report. He’s on list for Wheal Alfred but they are stacked out. We advertised him privately but all sorts of dodgy people keep phoning up so that was a mistake. It is a mess.
For the right home (maybe grown ups with a lot of time and experience) he will be a gorgeous dog. We all love him but can’t keep him or other people/dogs safe!

Any suggestions? Please?

 

[CorvusCorax]

If he has bitten a child on arms and legs (breaking skin) with no provocation, especially after having been through that many trainers and behaviourists then I am sorry to say that I would PTS, that way he can hurt no one and no one can hurt him.
It is NOT the worst thing that could happen to him.

Very few people would give this fella a home when there are scores of issue-free dogs looking for a home.

ETA: I've seen that 'biting up both legs and arms thing' done before on an adult who ended up in A&E - that's a serious job.
Before anyone jumps on me for being a cruel cow, if any of my own dogs did that it on a child it would be Goodnight Vienna.

 

[Cedars]

I would PTS.

 

[vhf]

QR
I have to say that was my first thought without knowing more, but she is distraught and I'm not "doggy" so thought I'd ask some experts for a concensus. So sad, they spent months planning, researching and talking before they got to the stage of taking him on.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Poor family, and poor fella. He may have some pain or neurological issue and they should not blame themselves, sounds like they did all the right things, hope it doesn't put them off another dog.

 

[Spudlet]

I would also advise PTS, it sounds like this was more than a little nip tbh. Sorry

 

[Time Tells]

Hi,
I'm a dog lover but not owner so only lurk in here, but a friend is in a mess with her young dog (from memory, about 12 months, GSD cross) so I offered to post in here in case anyone has a clever suggestion. They are sensible intelligent people, and genuinely thought - and were advised - that the dog and they would be a good fit. This is what she has told me:-

Post away – we are willing to try anything….
He is a gorgeous dog and we’ve had advice from ‘time’ to ‘euthanasia’ and obviously there is no way we want that…. We will consider anything to avoid that.
But, we’ve been to so many different trainers, whispers, behaviourist etc (some clicker training some not) and everyone is so opinionated and says everyone else is wrong…. Basically he needs loads and loads of training – more than we can manage or provide. He has started attacking other dogs and chasing herds of cows so we can’t walk him off the lead and we’re terrorising everyone in the local village. And then he bit our son up both legs and arms and we still don’t know why – no inkling of aggression to any size people at all before or since.
The charity we got him from can’t take him back and RSPCA won’t take him without yet another behaviourist report. He’s on list for Wheal Alfred but they are stacked out. We advertised him privately but all sorts of dodgy people keep phoning up so that was a mistake. It is a mess.
For the right home (maybe grown ups with a lot of time and experience) he will be a gorgeous dog. We all love him but can’t keep him or other people/dogs safe!

Any suggestions? Please?

I am surprised any 'charity' would even rehome a dog with issues like these. They are trained to deal and discover issues dogs have before even considering placing them.

I would contact the charity and tell them straight how it is and inform them it is their 'duty' given they placed an aggressive & dangerous dog, to take him back. If not I would also tell them that you are going to highlight this via the 'media'! They will soon take him back, given donations will be reduced if donators discovered they are not doing their job correctly and placing unsuitable dogs in the community!

If the dog was fine when placed and his issues have just started since your friend homed him, then I would ask myself why?

 

[YasandCrystal]

Sadly I would agree with other posters to PTS. It's an awful situation and must be heartbreaking for your friend. We had an aggressive german shepherd which we kept alive after it attacked someone, but it could NEVER be trusted with anyone but the immediate family and spent so much time locked out or muzzled - euthanasia would have been fairer in hindsight.

The owner needs to take responsibility for the dog's life as well as anyone he could harm. A family in my village were recently turned on by their mastiff - it went for their baby and managed to bite and break the mum's arm and bite up both arms of her husband culminating in a dreadful attack on his groin and buttock leaving holes you could put your fingers in. He was lucky not to be killed - if the femoral artery had been bitten it would have been curtains. He was hospitalised and has some 150+ stitches. The dog was shot by police. The family are completely traumatized - they had this dog for 3 years - you can imagine all the 'what ifs' scenarios they are going through. They have 3 children any of which could have been fatally injured.
If a dog has bitten a family member like this unprovoked imo it has to be PTS - tell your friend to imagine the trauma if he attacked again; she would have to live with that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Unless it is written into a contract to return the dog to the charity I would not do so, he could seem fine, be rehomed and attack someone again. Hard to live with that thought.

As mentioned if he was fine at the centre, it may be a pain or neurological issue or if he is a year old this problem may only have become apparent in maturity.
Dogs develop fast and a six month old pup will be very different physically and psychologically by the time he is 18 months.

Busy rescue mainstream centres where the dogs are kennelled can not always make accurate judgements on how dogs will react in a completely different setting with different people and stimulus.

 

[Time Tells]

Unless it is written into a contract to return the dog to the charity I would not do so, he could seem fine, be rehomed and attack someone again. Hard to live with that thought.

As mentioned if he was fine at the centre, it may be a pain or neurological issue or if he is a year old this problem may only have become apparent in maturity.
Dogs develop fast and a six month old pup will be very different physically and psychologically by the time he is 18 months.

Busy rescue mainstream centres where the dogs are kennelled can not always make accurate judgements on how dogs will react in a completely different setting with different people and stimulus.

I cannot see a charity re-homing a dog with known biting issues, there would be serious consqences if the dog went on to hurt or kill someone.

They would have to do one or two things. Enlist in a trainer to re-educate the dog or put the dog to sleep, personally I would think they would chose the latter option.

 

[CorvusCorax]

They said they won't take him ^^^
And they (owners) have been through a tonne of trainers already? (Although I hate the thought, and I know it is true/happens, of one trainer telling a client that all other trainers are wrong...)

Not arguing with you by the way, very sad situation all round.

 

[AmyMay]

If he has bitten a child on arms and legs (breaking skin) with no provocation, especially after having been through that many trainers and behaviourists then I am sorry to say that I would PTS, that way he can hurt no one and no one can hurt him.
It is NOT the worst thing that could happen to him.

I completely and utterly agree.

I'm amazed it wasn't done as soon as the biting incident took place.

And they can't manage or provide training - why do they have a dog??!!!!!

Sorry, I'm sort of gobsmacked.

 

[blackcob]

I cannot see a charity re-homing a dog with known biting issues, there would be serious consqences if the dog went on to hurt or kill someone.

A friend of ours adopted a dog from one of the big national charities which attacked and bit a regular visitor to the home (badly, he required stitches). They returned the dog fully expecting that she would be put to sleep especially as she had other issues, SA, excessive barking, urinating in the house. She was immediately put back up for rehoming and her blurb on the website contained no mention of any of her behaviour issues.

As for the OP, I'm going to join the chorus of 'PTS' but it seems a damned shame, from what's written it sounds like everything's been done piecemeal, no real 100% commitment to any one method for any period of time, poor dog probably doesn't know if he's coming or going. Is he getting adequate exercise, even?

 

[Time Tells]

They said they won't take him ^^^
And they (owners) have been through a tonne of trainers already? (Although I hate the thought, and I know it is true/happens, of one trainer telling a client that all other trainers are wrong...)

Not arguing with you by the way, very sad situation all round.

Of course I understand you are not arguing, neither am I, only trying to help.
The OP does not say how long her friends have owned this dog, but if it is under 3 months the charity is obliged to take the dog back, after all it was them whom released it on the grounds these people and the dog were suited.

Clearly they are not and the dog has issues. A dog esp a puppy just does not start behaving this way for no reason, either something has confused him to a degree where is is frustrated or he came with these issues. There is no such thing as a bad animal, only bad owners/trainers. I am not suggesting the present owners have mis-treating him, what I am saying is somewhere along the line, something has made this dog/puppy turn this way, either before he arrived and the charity, during his stay there (in which case he should never have been re-homed and the onus is on the charity) or since.

The bottom line is, the out-come does not look good for the dog. Clearly his present owners cannot cope, in this case it is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Time Tells]

A friend of ours adopted a dog from one of the big national charities which attacked and bit a regular visitor to the home (badly, he required stitches). They returned the dog fully expecting that she would be put to sleep especially as she had other issues, SA, excessive barking, urinating in the house. She was immediately put back up for rehoming and her blurb on the website contained no mention of any of her behaviour issues.

As for the OP, I'm going to join the chorus of 'PTS' but it seems a damned shame, from what's written it sounds like everything's been done piecemeal, no real 100% commitment to any one method for any period of time, poor dog probably doesn't know if he's coming or going. Is he getting adequate exercise, even?

This is disgraceful. Had I been your friend I would have taken action and reported the charity. Charities accept donations in order to function. The people whom are generous enough to donate, do so because they love dogs/animals and want to help these dogs in the very best way possible.
Cases such as these is NOT in my opinion helping the animal in any way what so ever. Being home and then re-homed over and over will just add to issue the dog has already.

Clearly in both cases highlighted here, the best thing for the dog is not happening. As you say 'The poor animal' will not know whether he is coming or going.

If the charities are doing such things, they need to be reported, as this practice must cease! By highlighting issues such as these, will not only help future animals but bring it to the attention of those of us who donate, If enough of us threaten to stop donating and donations dwindle they would soon get there act together. In addition, the charity could be in a lot of trouble homing a dog which is proven to bite or be dangerous.

 

[vhf]

QR
Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I think the best thing I can do is print off the thread and pass it on. I told her you were a reasoned selection of experts, and I trust they will do the right thing by the poor boy, they are a sensible family. (And to the person asking, yes, the dog will have had plenty of exercise, they live near a beach and I would say should have offered a perfect home for the right dog.)

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm sorry but I'm going to say pts too. It sounds like the owner has done everything possible with this dog, and the kindest thing would be to make sure he cannot harm anyone else or himself.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I feel very sorry for the ops friend and her dog I wonder if this dog had issues before and they were not told.

A few years ago I was looking for a rescue Dobe and went to see one a few miles away at a charity. I was shown this dog which was four years old and had been rehomed twice before and had come back after biting someone. The last time was without warning and provacation and they had assessed him and they felt he was fineand ready to be rehomed. This dog did not look at me once and it was obvious from his body language, general demeanor there was something not right about this dog. Needless to say I passed and I told them in my opinion they shouldnt be rehoming this dog and they should either keep it at the kennels or pts. They replied he was absolutely fine and would only go to a experienced home.

In my opinion the ops dog should only be rehomed to someone who has lots pf experience of this type of dog and will give it a job to do. Sadly these types of homes are few and far between so the only safe option is pts.

 

[Oneofthepack]

And they can't manage or provide training - why do they have a dog??!!!!!

Sorry, I'm sort of gobsmacked.

Sorry but this is a tiny bit unfair as it seems they have gone above and beyond in every direction to try and solve the problem. What we don't know is the breed strain, what the cross is, what the circumstances of the dog being in rescue were etc etc.

I have friends who adopted a GSD because she was in a truly awful home, made to sit all day and night in the kitchen with no stimulation and no exercise for over a year. They thought they were doing the animal a favour but the poor thing was round the twist by the time they got her and so tense about walking and almost everything else that she bit their son and another relative, BUT they did manage to find her a really good home with someone who prepared to deal with her behaviour and she is now apparantly a different dog. This dog is obviously being stressed to the point of biting by something so it seems to me that it is NOT suitable for this home and unless they can find a kind home with someone knowledgable and without children the pts option might be the kindest.

Even taking the dog back to the original charity may not be the best idea, they may rehome it without explaining the problems and it could seriously injure someone, or it could be rehomed to someone less caring and end being horribly treated because of it's behaviour, which probably won't improve following another unheaval.

Sorry, not been on here for a while so lots of pent up advice build up!

 

[Leaveittothediva]

Hi, if your friends want to keep the dog they will have to bring him to the vet and have a full physical check done on him with blood tests. The last dog that I have heard of like this was a female doberman and she turned out to have a brain tumour, hence the behavioural problems. The outcome as you can imagine was not good. If you rule out any health problems then trainers will tell you that you have a red zone dog, some trainers will tell you to pts other more experienced and dare I say it expensive ones will take the dog away for training because, it is normally done within a dog pack situation and can take a long time but as far as I am aware you can visit in between. Hope this is of help.

 

[suzysparkle]

Hi,
And then he bit our son up both legs and arms and we still don’t know why – no inkling of aggression to any size people at all before or since.
QUOTE]

Well that is very very worrying. For this alone I would say PTS. He's a big dog and could easily kill a child, or an adult for that matter. He certainly shouldn't be around children.

The only other thing I'd add to what else has been said is you say they have had numerous trainers and behaviourists but have only had the dog 12 months. Without meaning this the wrong way that could quite easily have made things worse. If they all have different approaches then the dog will have become confused and frustrated which could have triggered the aggressive attack. The best way is to carefully choose a trainer and then stick with them remembering that results could take many months. Easy to say sat at a computer mind you. It's also worth remembering that training can only do so much.

Any good charity should take back a rehomed dog, however, as has already been said this wouldn't be the answer. He could end up biting someone else. I also think advertising him is wrong. I would bet money he'd end up being bought for fighting or baiting. There may well be the right home out there but finding it would be very difficult. After all, there are hundreds, probably thousands of dogs out there looking for homes.

I ditto the comment that being PTS is not the worst that could happen. Unless they can commit themselves to a consistent training programme it's what needs to happen. And even then, he'd need to be kept away from children.

What an awful situation. What they have to remember is that they are NOT to blame. Such a shame :-(

 

[Foxhunter49]

Unfortunately many people running rescues haven't a clue and often place a dog with a wrong family.

Dogs like this can (if there are no medical reasons) be retrained but it takes A) a lot of experience B) Hard work and C) Consistency at all times.

As the dog had bitten the child I too would say PTS - it is the kindest thing to do. Look at it from the dog's view. If they hand him back he could be in kennels and go from home to home until he finally becomes so stressed he does some serious damage that will harm a person seriously.

Not worth risking.

 

[Dobiegirl]

The Dobe I had before my latest 2 came to me from his breeder because he had bitten a child. Fred had been returned to his breeder because of this, havingspoken to her she had contact with all his siblings and none of them had ever shown any aggression. Well Fred was the fattest Dobe Ive ever seen and had no training at all, he jumped on my sofa and when I told him to get off he growled at me. So I went behind the sofa,tipped it up and shouted get off which he did. He was a lot of hard work and very challenging but turned out to be my dog of a lifetime.

The ops dog is a different kettle of fish and I have rethought this a full medical is a must and with the all clear a good positive trainer who specialises in behavioural issues. Then the dog could be rehomed to an owner who would give him a job to do but not a home with children.