Desperate need of advice, horse not right after two surgeries! At my wits end.

[ellen2727]

This is a bit of a long one.

Bought a 10yo gelding off a friend at current yard. Passed 5 stage vetting but didn't get x rays, ( had known the horse for years, no injuries, lameness etc. ) Had jumped 120 with potential for 130.

Horse needed a lot of work but after a few months of TLC and proper riding, he was a dream (I did mostly flatwork to go back to basics as he rushed his fences and tanked after them) Only issue is he was girthy when tacking up. Was treated for ulcers and slight improvement. Saddle was checked, teeth done, physio. All good.

Fast forward a few months I was having a lesson when suddenly I feel him taking a single hop step behind, in almost a resistance to go forward sort of way. It keeps happening. I put leg on, ears go back, back raises and he does a sort of mini buck or skip step, kicking up slightly underneath his belly. I get off, throw him on the lunge and nothing. Same action the next day.

I called a vet and see found him lame on the left hind and suggested physio. Physio saw him but no improvement. Referred to equine hospital.
Here he is diagnosed with mild proximal suspensory desmitis on his hind legs. Surgery was our best option. However post surgery after rehab, he was still doing the exact same thing.

Back up to vets where he is diagnosed with kissing spine! Trial and error plus injections found he was much happier going forward when a rider was stood up off his back as opposed to sitting/rising. Vet suggested the ligament snip in four spots, which I went for. It made a lot more sense than the PSD.

Horse was rehabbed for a number of weeks long and low. Had physio, dry needling and laser therapy. Lives out full time.
First day on was still reluctant to the leg, back would tense but no kick (may one very small?) . Much happier to go forward but still funny off the leg ( all done standing off his back by a well balanced ex jockey). He is still very unhappy to be tacked up. Ears go back when he sees the saddle pad.

Today I tacked him up (maybe his forth ride post surgery?) and he was very grumpy being saddled. I was questioning if this was a learned behaviour after many years or was he still sore? I tack him up and lead him out and he rears up and starts broncing like a breaker trying to get the saddle off! Gallops down the yard, bucking mad in a sort of frenzy. It seems to me he wanted whatever was on his back off. He is normally the most placid horse.

I am at my wits end. I have spent a small fortune of vets and rehabbing this horse. Next step is to get saddle rechecked again, but bear in mind I did so so recently?

He has had three vets see him, who on the lunge say he is sound, an incredible physio, dentist, farrier is perfect, everything done. He lives out full time and is in otherwise great form. Happy to run with his buddies and has no mobility issues. Ulcers were ruled out.

I have no money left to give and no one can figure it out. He is happy out lunging, loose and forward and ears forward. But with a rider he is not.

Any advice as to where to go/do next? I would consider myself pretty experienced but this has me, and many professionals at a loss.

 

[ponynutz]

When he's looked at on the lunge does he have a saddle or roller on?

 

[SEL]

I've got one retired like that. She does have a muscle disease to add to the equation but we've scanned, x-rayed, medicated, nerve blocked and we know she's sore in her back but nothing conclusive as to why.
She'll be fabulous for a week after intensive bodywork but always relapses
She wasn't enjoying being ridden and I wasn't enjoying wondering if I was going to be catapulted into space.

A fascia release person looked at her a few months ago and said she has incredibly tight fascia with some huge knots which made me wonder whether she'd had some kind of fall or got caught up when no one was around. She obviously has a sore back because if you massage across it she does all kinds of silly faces - not been ridden for a year but something still hurts.

Your vet needs to see the reaction to a saddle even if it's a video I think.

 

[blood_magik]

How long has it been since the lig snip surgery?

I had one with KS who took a long time to realise he wasn’t sore - probably about six months after I started riding him again post op. He was a nightmare - I used to dread having to ride him but now 3 years on he’s doing fab, albeit with a lighter jockey.

I would get the saddle checked again incase he’s changed shape (mine went up two gullet widths in a ridiculously short amount of time). Might even be worth trying a different saddle

 

[BBP]

I don’t truly know your next step, but with mine I’m now at the stage where if the ears go back as soon as it sees the saddle pad, that is lesson number 1. For me not the horse. So the session goes no further until the horse is comfortable seeing the saddle pad. There is no riding or even saddling until I get a horse who is completely comfortable with that stage. That might mean sessions just bringing the pad in and out, carrying it around, maybe even (horror or horrors!) treat training positive associations when he sees it. If he then stops reacting negatively to seeing it, then maybe a pad and roller and see how he reacts to the girth with no saddle. Repeat til comfortable. Then start groundwork in pad and roller. Then add saddle. If no negative reaction to saddling then groundwork with saddle on. Repeat repeat repeat. No riding whatsoever. Keep up the bodywork and the physio etc.

But I have the benefit of no goals and no ambitions, and becoming a bit of a hippy horse hugger as I get older, so I have no pressure of expectation. If he had told you all 4 times post surgery that he isn’t happy with the saddle pad, but those are ignored and he gains a saddle, a girth and a rider, then he is starting to shout louder. Obviously from your post you know this stuff so I’m sort of stating the obvious. I was reading some Warwick Schiller stuff the other day and he was talking about how someone might come to him and say they have a horse who is great in all ways except when they come to canter and it bucks. He then strips it back and finds maybe the horse fidgets to mount, maybe it’s unhappy being tacked up, raises its head when it’s caught in the field, and he talks about going right back to step 1 and making sure that all the little things leading up to that buck in canter aren’t ignore or brushed over. It made me think about about how many times, even though I think I’m a kind horse person, I see a slightly hard eye or nostril or raising the head to bridle, and I push on anyway with what I wanted to do because I have my own plan and schedule, and I ignore the little things my horse is saying all the time. I’m trying to do better for him now, hence my approach above.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t truly know your next step, but with mine I’m now at the stage where if the ears go back as soon as it sees the saddle pad, that is lesson number 1. For me not the horse. So the session goes no further until the horse is comfortable seeing the saddle pad. There is no riding or even saddling until I get a horse who is completely comfortable with that stage.

I'm glad you wrote this, I was trying to work out how to say it.

I tack my horse(s) up loose in the stable. I don't ride horses who routinely walk away when they see the saddle approaching.

Ellen I would try BBP's approach and then retire if that does not work. Actually, at my age, i would retire now as i couldn't face the prospect of being put into orbit, and there's no shame in anyone admitting that.
.

 

[Sossigpoker]

How have ulcers been ruled out ?
Only way to rule them out is by scoping.

Regardless, this is such an unhappy horse that I'd be inclined to give him 6-12 months off in a field and then see how he is.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Your vets have done their best, and unfortunately, that may not be enough to return to full soundness. The recovery period for your particular horse may be longer than expected. He may be experiencing some nerve pain in his spinal area, which would feel like an electric shock. He is definitely telling you that he isn't ok and it will become dangerous to try and work through this. Perhaps a long look at the future prospects and possible outcomes is needed, and a few 'what ifs' thrown in for good measure. Are you able to put your plans on hold and turn him away for six months, a year? Just go right back to basic in hand work, and build up very slowly. No magic words of wisdom I'm afraid, he sounds to be your dream horse and I hope he starts to mend.

 

[scats]

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with your horse.
I have a little sports horse who was diagnosed in 2017 with the mildest PSD that the vet in the hospital had ever seen on a scan (he said simply coz most horses wouldn’t show any signs at that stage), yet her reactions were extreme. Reversing, rearing, refusing to go forwards.
Very long story short, but we did 12 months off, then rehab and reintroduction to work long reining for another 12 months. Still wasn’t right under saddle (sound but swishy tailed when leg on, then running in a panic through the bridle) so another 6 months off, then rehab again.

Long story very short but it’s taken 5 years to get her brain/body back into the right place. She’s now the horse I always knew she could be, albeit I am very careful with her and she currently still only does walk and trot.
What I’ve taken away from it is that PSD is a condition that is definitely a lifelong thing, physically and mentally. Any expectations I had for her are gone and we just enjoy what we can. I’m afraid that when I hear a horse has had PSD, however mild or however treated, I don’t have particularly high expectations for a full recovery.
Of course, I really hope this isn’t the case with your horse, and I’m sure there are horses out there who have returned to work successfully, but a lot of my research and discussions with veterinary professionals has cemented my own findings.

I would be tempted to give him a full 12 months off and re-assess.

 

[GreyDot]

How have ulcers been ruled out ?
Only way to rule them out is by scoping.

Regardless, this is such an unhappy horse that I'd be inclined to give him 6-12 months off in a field and then see how he is.

I was just about to add the same thing. His reaction sounds like he is very unhappy. It also sounds very much like the ulcer are back.

 

[TheMule]

I would treat for ulcers again as he was still in pain when you treated him originally, and he has subsequently had lots of stressful intervention

 

[Regandal]

My horse had psd surgery roughly a year before I got him. Turned out to have a myriad of problems, not unusual unfortunately. Hocks, ulcers and hind gut. Difficult to find a saddle to fit. I fixed what I could, spent ages doing in hand work and ended up with a WOW saddle. On the odd day that he says ‘no’ when he sees the saddle, we do other stuff.
You may have to adjust your expectations for this horse, I’m happy to do stuff within his limitations.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would treat the ulcers again then just let him have some field rest and then try again it may just be he needs some time.

 

[ester]

Were SI/hocks checked?

 

[Regandal]

Were SI/hocks checked?

Yes, as above. Also, how are his feet? Long toes/underrun heels?

 

[ellen2727]

When he's looked at on the lunge does he have a saddle or roller on?

Same either way - I generally lunge with a roller or nothing at all and before I ride I lunge with a saddle and see no difference.

 

[ellen2727]

How long has it been since the lig snip surgery?

I had one with KS who took a long time to realise he wasn’t sore - probably about six months after I started riding him again post op. He was a nightmare - I used to dread having to ride him but now 3 years on he’s doing fab, albeit with a lighter jockey.

I would get the saddle checked again incase he’s changed shape (mine went up two gullet widths in a ridiculously short amount of time). Might even be worth trying a different saddle

That is a bit of relief! Glad to hear everything went well for you, maybe it will just take some time for him

 

[ellen2727]

I've got one retired like that. She does have a muscle disease to add to the equation but we've scanned, x-rayed, medicated, nerve blocked and we know she's sore in her back but nothing conclusive as to why.
She'll be fabulous for a week after intensive bodywork but always relapses
She wasn't enjoying being ridden and I wasn't enjoying wondering if I was going to be catapulted into space.

A fascia release person looked at her a few months ago and said she has incredibly tight fascia with some huge knots which made me wonder whether she'd had some kind of fall or got caught up when no one was around. She obviously has a sore back because if you massage across it she does all kinds of silly faces - not been ridden for a year but something still hurts.

Your vet needs to see the reaction to a saddle even if it's a video I think.

Vet's have seen videos, seen everything and cannot find anything wrong. Full body x rays clear etc.
My guy was incredibly tight as well and my physio has done wonders in helping him. I wish they could talk!

 

[ellen2727]

Were SI/hocks checked?

SI was injected twice and hocks x rays clear.

 

[AmyMay]

How long ago was the surgery?

 

[ellen2727]

How long ago was the surgery?

He is about 8 weeks post op now, just starting light ridden work.

 

[ellen2727]

I appreciate everyone's comments, I understand there isn't really much left one can do!

Regarding lengthy time off, he has had about 7 months off now in the field, bar the surgery box rests etc. I think if time off would help him, it would have by now?
Retiring him is my last resort. I have and will always put my horses first and if it gets to that I will make the call.

His reactions are very specific to certain stimuli. He is very willing on the lunge, relaxed and forward - both with a saddle or without.
Good but not 100% with a rider standing on his back but worse when one is sitting fully etc. I feel I have done the rounds to eliminate the possible causes of back pain.

If I had the time and the money to spend months doing groundwork, I would but when horses form part of my income it is harder to justify that. I will not sell him as I would dread to think what hands he could fall into, but equally I cannot really afford to keep him long term retired for numerous reasons. I want the best for him but also have to be realistic with life in terms of finance.

My goals were to produce and sell as a 1.35m jumping horse, I obviously accepted that wasn't going to happen a long time ago but was willing to let him go as a lower level horse with full transparency once he came back right and had the all clear from the vets. So my ultimate goal here is to get him going enough that he can be sold as even a hacking horse as he is totally bombproof and the biggest gentleman - assuming we can get him comfortable and happy to do so.

I want the best thing for him, and I just feel there is a simple reason for his behaviour that, if I could find, he would get better - purely because his reactions are very specific.

 

[ponynutz]

Same either way - I generally lunge with a roller or nothing at all and before I ride I lunge with a saddle and see no difference.

So not the fit of the saddle that's the issue then... something to do with the added pressure on his back which, unfortunately, sounds like something a vet would need to look at more closely (weak back maybe?)

Could also try instructor and see if there's any way you can make yourself as light and as balanced as possible.

 

[AmyMay]

Regarding lengthy time off, he has had about 7 months off now

I’m not sure you can count that as he’s only 8 weeks post surgery. So day zero is from the date of the surgery (which is no time at all).

If I had the time and the money to spend months doing groundwork, I would

But surely that’s what you signed up for when sending him for surgery?

Have a look at Ownedbyaconnie’s KS thread. It makes for interesting reading.

 

[Ceriann]

Mine had a medial branch injury to left hind. Always happy to be tacked up to point of diagnosis. Long rehab before we contemplated riding but when I did she was v resistant to even a saddle pad. Took a long time to get her happy with being tacked and girthed. We went v slowly and had a few steps back. She is now 100% to be tacked if done sympathetically (I’m not suggesting you’re not sympathetic) and if she shows any resistance I know I need to look at something in her regime.

 

[Orangehorse]

I know he has had a lot of time off, but I would turn him out and forget riding until next spring. Horribly frustrating for you.

 

[SO1]

This whole situation sounds strange. If your friend has had no problems for years and then suddenly the horse has kissing spines. I thought kissing spines is something they are born with and therefore there would have been problems at an earlier stage.

If he is worse now than before the operation could there be something that went wrong in the operation. There are risks with any operation.

You could try a bute trial as that may identify if it is pain related or not.

If you bought him to sell on and need to sell and therefore cannot afford to retire, or turn away and restart or do more vet investigation then I don't think you have many options sadly.

If it is not pain related then perhaps you need to be more gradual. Start by putting saddle on and then taking straight off, and gradually extending the time almost as if you are re backing.

At the moment if things continue to escalate then it could become dangerous.

 

[ycbm]

I thought kissing spines is something they are born with and therefore there would have been problems at an earlier stage.

The surgeon who operated on mine said that he sees them at 3 stages. One which have problems being backed and were born with them, at 3/4 (as he thought mine was due to the location, behind the saddle, and the thickness and closeness of the DSPs). Then at 7/8 as they fail to cope with a continuing adult workload. These can be stoic horses born with them or brought on by failure to move correctly, often as a result of issues in the back legs and/or SI, sometimes by an undeveloped thoracic sling. Then around 12 where work wear and tear or increasing demands in competition horses come into effect.
.

 

[sbloom]

This whole situation sounds strange. If your friend has had no problems for years and then suddenly the horse has kissing spines. I thought kissing spines is something they are born with and therefore there would have been problems at an earlier stage.

No, they're not born with KS. Yes there was a big hoo-ha recently about a certain proportion of cases being genetic, making these genetic cases more prone to actual symptomatic KS but improving their posture and ridding them of compensatory movement patterns can keep many KS pain free and happy, and doing that deals with so many other issues too. Very few horses are truly straight, truly lifted in their thoracic sling, and this can be from birth trauma or anything else that happens to them before or after backing. Until a better theory comes along this is the only one that makes sense to me, and the proof is that it so far seems to be the best way to maintaining these horses long term.

Also closeness/impaction on x-rays, as with navicular changes, doesn't correlate with actual symptoms, just as an aside. We have much to learn yet.

@ellen2727 PSD is incredibly closely connected with loss of posture, topline syndrome etc, and address THIS, rather than whack-a-mole injections, surgery etc (though of course sometimes it IS necessary) is your route forwards, from everything I've learned. EVen trying to work out primary and secondary isn't that useful, often we have no idea what the trigger was for the start of all this.

Long and low rehab will have kept him on the forehand and in a slightly different form of compensatory movement pattern, it's still not taught him a better way to move. It's better than being told to rehab in a Pessoa, so there's that! The galloping off was likely, from my current "studies"/reading, a nerve impingement which is super common with these movement patterns.

I would also suspect there could be some SI discomfort as well, the way ours and horses bodies work is that we compensate by taking the strain elsewhere, and the SI could be implicated with these other issues. Fixing the symptom and not the cause is obviously not great but it's the way we treat so many issues with horses.

 

[Patterdale]

Turn him away and look at him again in a year, no sooner.
Ride other peoples horses in the meantime.

You don’t need to spend any more money and energy on this in hopes that you will find the magic cause, because you probably won’t and regardless of what it is anyway, the best cure will be time and rest.