Devil in the field

[Dunlin]

I don't often post here for advice being the born again happy hacker I am as I just enjoy the forum in others ways but I'm really upset about the horse I share at the moment and after trying to solve the problem with owner, yard manager and others at the yard I'm a bit stumped so I am tentatively sticking my toe in here!!

My background is that I used to own/ride 10 years ago and came back into riding 3 years ago with lessons at a RS. I then moved to horse county (Dorset) and found a wonderful share whenever my health permits (I have M.E).

Horse is 13 years old, TB, gelded, ex hunter, 16hh, I just hack, have lessons and attend very occasional fun shows, plus look after him in all ways when I can, have been sharing him since October last year. He is a real gent, soft as anything, loves cuddles in his stable and is a dream to do with everything else (but one).

In the field he is an utter beast to me. Biting, kicking out and chasing me. I go into his field to bring him in, take him out, give hay and sometimes just to give him a cuddle or his treat ball.

I wasn't ever nervous of horses before or even in my return but in the past few months I have become a jittery wreck when it comes to entering the field. He is usually on his own, apparently there are no reasons behind that.

A scenario from this morning, I went to get him in, he was pleased to see me and whinnied and came trotting over. I gave him his carrot and apple (allowed) and when I went to check the water trough he charged at me (only in trot) but with his ears back, head low and top lip curled up. I threw my arms out and shouted "woah" and he spun round and cow kicked. Thankfully didn't hit me but wasn't far off it.

I take a short crop with me and slap it against my boots which makes him stop but I am quite frankly too scared to carry on with this anymore and it's ruining my enjoyment.

Owner states she has never seen this behaviour before and when she has accompanied me to fetch him he behaves perfectly, it's only ever when I am alone. Others at the yard including Yard Manager weren't very forthcoming with information when I asked if it was just me so I suspect it isn't.

I have tried most things (I think), stopped the treats, only seeing him for turn in/out. Approaching very slowly, being gentle, being boss, being very vocal and noisy etc. I have never abused or hurt him in any way, I am a big softy in that respect. I'm worried that he just doesn't like me but then why is he so sweet in a stable and when being ridden?

I wonder if it's rough play as he must be quite bored on his own. There are no health issues either.

The biggest problem is that after another discussion with owner this morning I have been told that if I can't deal with him in the field then the share is over. Perfectly understandable as I can't expect someone else to bring him in or to have him stabled for my convenience.

To be honest, my mind is already made up that I am going to have to call it quits, whatever the problem is I don't think I can cure it by next weekend but I thought I would post here in a last ditch attempt for advice!

Any advice or help would be gratefully appreciated, in the manner of tradition I can offer home made parsnip soup and rice crispy squares!

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if he is pushing his luck knowing you are feeling nervous, being alone is unnatural for horses and that seems unfair if there is no reason for it, can he not have the company he probably craves, not your choice but worth seeing if he can.
I would go and catch him, no treats, bring him in and ride, check field while he is not out there then turn him out so you can leave him be, at the moment he sees you as a bringer of nice things and someone to treat like another horse and when you do not want to join in he makes his displeasure known just as he would if you were a horse.
I do not see why you need to deal with his behaviour in the field as long as you can bring in and turn out safely that should be enough, the main cause of his behaviour is in the way he is kept, not the way you deal with him.

 

[JillA]

I would be taking a 12ft (minimum) rope into the field with me and if he comes at me I would swing it - fast. No horse ever voluntary walked into propellor blades, so thinkof it being that fast. Not at him, around your space - if he walks into it and gets caught by it it will be his fault not yours. Then, so long as he is looking aggressive, keep swinging. the INSTANT he looks softer and more amenable stop the swinging and walk up to him. So long as he is nasty, swing the rope, if he is being nice, go and rub his face etc, but the key is timing, so you have to be spot on. Good luck - that kind of behaviour is unacceptable and if I was the owner I would be concerned that he can be like that with any person.
The rope puts you in control and he will understand that, but it needs to be a long thickish one to keep you safe.
Parsnip soup?????

 

[ladyt25]

I wonder if you should maybe get a knowledgeable instructor and have some groundwork lessons with him to be honest. It sounds like he is trying to bully you to be honest - after all, from the sounds of it he has noone else to interact with. Therefore I think some groundwork lessons and some advice from an instructor regarding his behavioit may help. You need to find a hood instructor though, a bit of NH type essentially. My youngster can he a bolshy sod and a bit fly with his feet if he doesn't get his own way but he needs to be shown clear boundaries and it really works for him. I do have to be firm and on occasion he has knocked my confidence but I know I HAVE to be confident handling him as that gives him confidence. Remember horses are very rarely actually aggressive, you need to understand why he's behaving this way so you know how to tell him that's not acceptable.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

All the advice given so far is very good.

Just wanted to say I don't think the attitude of the owner is understandable if they haven't offered any practical help/advice on how to deal with their horse.

It's their horse that is misbehaving, she should deal with it or teach you how to deal with it. Especially as you have been sharing through the last wintereek which shows quite a lot of dedication in my view.

 

[ladyt25]

I echo the others as well re owner's attitude. I'd want to help a good sharer if my horse was being a sod!

 

[Carlosmum]

You need to come across as the 'dominant' mare. His behaviour shows he thinks he is in charge & you need to reverse this. Get some help from a NH instructor who can show you how to approach him with confidence and handle him in a pressure/controller halter of some kind. I find with my bolshy youngster & my older gelding too, a sharp nip ( a good pinch behind the foreleg/elbow) followed by a nice rub between the eyes ( as a mare would do when controlling her youngster) reminds them of their place in my world & gains a little of that horse to 'Mum' respect needed for everyone's sake.
Don't give up.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

So basically, the behaviour is only when he is at liberty in his field ? Only things I can think of are, to never give treats, which you've already stopped and enter the field only to bring in/turn out. Do other jobs like checking water or haying from over the fence or when he's in the stable.
Don't give him the opportunity to see you as a field companion that he can play with or boss about.
If it helps, see if its ok to leave a headcollar on for a few visits while you sort the problem.
Horses are incredibly sensitive to body language, I once had a youngster that was overly playful in the field too and an older horse used to keep her in check by making her stand absolutely still when I was poo picking. No idea how he did it, but he could control each of her feet with a look.

Try walking into the field steadily but without direct eye contact, attach lead rope and lead out of the field without fuss or cuddles.
Speak to his owner first but personally, I'd be happy for you to swing a lead rope (keep metal end in your hand) at him if he barged or threatened to kick- slap his bum with it if you're quick enough. A horse that thinks it can kick out or charge at people is dangerous and it needs nipping in the bud.

Try using 5 minutes on the yard when you bring him in to get him to do some exercises to control his feet. Backing, stopping and turning in order to reassert your leadership. One useful exercise is to do turns by always taking the direct route, while he has to move to make way for you; ie, after closing the field gate, always turn in the shortest line while he moves out of your way and around you. This simple thing can make quite a difference in attitude because it asserts you as higher in status.

 

[Patterdale]

Stop the treats!
You will see results fairly soon.....

 

[Dunlin]

Thank you very much everyone for all your helpful replies!

First off I just want to clarify that the treats directly from me have been stopped. I cannot alter his feeding programme (I did ask though) and when I do take him his morning feed there are already a carrot and apple in his bucket. I usually hand feed him them whilst slipping his headcollar on as he is a monkey to catch unless his gob is being stuffed with something tasty.

I went down early this morning with a lead rope (well, 3 tied together). Rather than going in with the feed I left it outside and went in to check the water and poo pick. Once in the field he did his usual "charrrrge" and I spun the lead rope around my head. Well yes he stopped but he then went up and showed me his front feet (well shod, very clean).

I went back out and got his feed so I put his headcollar on, after brekkie I walked him around the field for a good half an hour. He was absolutely perfect. Then it all went wrong. I asked him to stop which he did and I went to move him back and he whipped round and once again by a miracle missed kicking me. I admit, I gave up and phoned Yard Manager to come and retrieve the lead rope and his head collar. I watched with interest and the key thing was the apple she had in her hand. I don't think this is unusual, she seemed pre-equipped. I didn't even want to ride him after that. Who wants to ride a horse that wants to kick your head in?!

Before I went home I did have a meander round the yard, clearly my "depression" was readable as many asked what was wrong. It's all still very cagey when I mention his field aggression but it's clearly well known and I detected hints that I am one of many sharers that has been there.

I don't want to give up but I could spend the same amount of money per week riding a lovely schoolmaster and enjoying myself without thinking about writing up my will!

Again, I have until this weekend to make a decision, same for his owner too. We're not on bad terms with each other at all and she's a lovely lady but incredibly busy, it's just an unfortunate situation and I'm not sure what the best option for all concerned is

 

[Fools Motto]

I feel for you. Where in Dorset are you?
Whatever happens, your life in once piece is far more important that trying to sort things out. Sounds quite a deep rooted spoilt-boy issue he has, and I doubt he should ever be trusted.

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if it all went ok initially but what is the point of walking him round his own field for 1/2 an hour, that sounds extremely boring and for the horse it must be even more so, the field is where he lives. I would have thought some proper work, ridden , would be more effective and lack of exercise and a routine may well be why he acts the way he does with you.
Feeding in the field before catching is asking for trouble, he should get the feed ideally after work not before he even comes in but if that is what the owner wants done there is not much you can do, it just seems odd to me.

 

[GeorgeyGal]

You say he is usually on his own, is this when you are around because he is the last to be brought in or because he maybe is aggressive with other horses? Sounds like this may be the underlying issue. I think the owner should be upfront with you about these issues as you point out a lot that the people on the yard are not surprised etc... I'd do some digging so you know exactly what you are dealing with.

 

[Twinkley Lights]

I suspect they aren't going to fess up and say what you are dealing with as the treats etc are pretty wierd. As BP said earlier I would catch and lead in to ride straight away no messing and do field jobs whilst he is boxed. The treats are now a large part of the issue but I suspect not the root cause. I wouldn't give this much longer as his behaviour sounds dangerous By the way his owner is not a nice lady she is a fool with her head in the sand and will be liable if he hurts someone or transfers this behaviour to another situation. Suspect she is actually looking for Kelly or Monty to turn up and share and fix all her probs.

 

[MagicMelon]

Personally I think you should give up with this one and try and find a horse to share that doesn't want to kill you occassionally! You're basically hearing hints that the field thing IS a long term known problem - even if the owner wont admit it. Therefore there's far more to this than you thought. Have you actually watched the owner go in with the horse etc.? If not, I'd probably ask to watch her for a few days (or even spy on her...!).

 

[AmyMay]

Stop treating. Problem solved.

 

[Honey08]

I agree, you don't sound happy and are in a dodgy situation, when there are lots of other horses around.. If you were to carry on. it seems as though, initially, you have no problem catching this horse, even if its with a treat. IMO, the way forward is to bring him in and tie him up. Don't do any jobs like poo picking or checking water while he is there, do it while the field is empty. Don't put yourself in a position to get into that situation.

My own horse can be a bag to catch, whipping round and kicking out at the last moment. I've had her eight years and she has done it with me about three times, yet with my husband she does it all the time, and she used to with our old groom. Nowadays we all have a compromise that she gets a carrot while you catch her (she is greedy and loses all nastiness as soon as she spots the carrot), and she is sweetness and light. Last week when I was away, hubby ran out of carrots, and was treated to half an hour of her charging about in the field bucking at him, until he drove down to the village shop to buy some, then the halo appeared again! We have a sharer for our other horse, and a groom on Sundays, I rarely leave them in a situation where they have to catch her, and the first thing that I tell them is about the carrot thing, and that if they experience any signs of her being anything other than sweet, they must leave her where she is and keep safe - even if she needs a life saving medical treatment, their safety comes first.. It may well be that this horse's owner has not really experienced this behaviour (as I haven't with my horse) but she ought to be well aware that he does it with others (as I am with my horse)..

 

[Barleyboo]

" IMO, the way forward is to bring him in and tie him up. Don't do any jobs like poo picking or checking water while he is there, do it while the field is empty. Don't put yourself in a position to get into that situation."

This is exactly what we do with my horse who sounds very similar to yours. Why take the risk? It seems a shame to give him up because of this problem if you are happy with him once he is out of the field. You don't HAVE to hang around in the field with him, you can get him out if you want to make a fuss of him.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

" IMO, the way forward is to bring him in and tie him up. Don't do any jobs like poo picking or checking water while he is there, do it while the field is empty. Don't put yourself in a position to get into that situation."

This is exactly what we do with my horse who sounds very similar to yours. Why take the risk? It seems a shame to give him up because of this problem if you are happy with him once he is out of the field. You don't HAVE to hang around in the field with him, you can get him out if you want to make a fuss of him.

This is good practice and really should be enforced by livery yards in the interests of Health and Safety.

 

[Mike007]

The behavior you describe is an example of a normal herd instinct that has become confused. Geldings are often somewaht confused hormonaly anyway.This horse considers himself head of the herd and you are that herd. When you go away this is bad herd behaviour on your part and needs to be punnished. Its not personal and dont get into the idea that he "hates" you. They dont think like that. You need to distance yourself a bit ,and not make a fuss of him. He needs to learn that you are the boss not him. He needs to learn to keep his distance from you until YOU tell him its ok. Carry a lunge whip and shoo him away if he tries to invade your space. Find things to do in the field that do not involve him ,and ignore him .Keep him at a distance and firmly in his place. And when yo have finnished ,go and dont talk to him. He is confused and needs to be kindly but firmly put in his place.

 

[DabDab]

Just a word of possible comfort before you make your decision:

If he gets turned out on his own then that field is his space, which is probably why he is actively trying to dominate it. I would really try to see if you can get him turned out with something else, because I suspect his attitude in the field would change if he had to share. It sounds like people have been bribing him with treats, which in itself isn't ideal.

Other than the ideas already suggested I would also try riding him in the field if that is possible, just so that you are doing something in that area where you are in control.

Such a shame if the horse is perfect in every other way, but good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Tormenta]

I echo similiarly what another poster said. Stop the faffing about in the field. Arrive, get him and take him in. He seems to display this behaviour in possible frustration at what he anticipates is your arrival equalling him getting the attention/food whatever. When you don't, he gets frustrated. Can you not take him in and deal with him first, then do any jobs? How does he react after he has been ridden and fed and is turned out? Equally, anticipation of treats and then not getting any can result in frustrated behaviour. He doesn't sound dangerous, just showing his confusion/brattishness by reacting.

 

[Dunlin]

Right then, a very productive and informative morning I have had in stealth mode.

I arrived in the woods early and took up camp at the other end of the field in the woods with my binoculars and a thermos, although it's a beautiful day here!

Owner arrived, plonked feed bucket on the gate rack and left. Her visit was so quick I didn't even get back to the yard in time to speak with her!

I put my confident socks on and politely demanded an informal meeting with the Yard Manager which was granted immediately. Me stating that I had no intention of continuing the share seemed to unlock everything.

He's paddocked alone as he kicks and bites every single other horse on the yard including the donkeys, he is rarely stabled as he cribs, he also killed one of the chickens that got into his field one day. Yard Manager has suggested putting sheep in the field so he's not bored and getting a trainer out but owner is not interested. Owner has asked for full livery several times but YM has refused due to his "issues" and her lack of addressing them. I was told when she does go into the field she takes the yards lunge whip with her but it's a rare occurrence and she only ever seems to go into the field to get him to ride. This I believe as I have spent many hours poo picking, scrubbing the troughs and pulling out ragwort.

Yard Manager did profusely apologise to me for not warning me or answering my questions before.

Owner last rode him 7 weeks ago for 30 minutes. His only other contact is from me and that's sporadic due to the ups and downs of my health.

I really don't want to walk away and throw him out like a broken toy so I shall speak with owner this weekend and see if YM can be present too and get everything out and in the open and see if we can find a way forward. If she is prepared to let me make some changes then good, I will also see if she would be happy to cover the cost of a trainer to evaluate this behaviour and help me work with him. I know she doesn't have the time so I'll have to cross that bridge if we come to it.

I can't thank you all enough for your wonderful help and advice, you have been a great source of information and encouragement. Thank you

 

[PleaseVenus]

I'm glad someone has at least told you.I can't believe she'll happily let you go into the field and poo pick etc for her yet she won't even go into the field herself presumably because she fears for her safety.

Its nice that you don't want to give up on him, hopefully your talk with the YM and owner won't fall on deaf ears

 

[HBrae2]

Poor you, and poor horse! It's lovely (and very dedicated ) that you don't want to give up but please remember your own safety is of paramount importance. Does the yard provide livery services? Could you ask for them to bring him in for you on the days you are up and you could get some ground work sessions with a behaviourist before taking any risks in the field?

You could move to my part of the world, I would love someone like you for my older girl - lovely to hack, no field / stable duties, no financial contribution required, great facilities, she doesn't care if she's ridden every day or once a month and I can guarantee she wouldn't attack you in the field!!!

I don't think the owner appreciates how lucky she is, I can't find anyone who a) doesn't want to gallop and jump all the time b) is over 18 and c) has a driving license and doesn't need me to pick them up!!!

Good luck, you sound lovely and I really hope you can change his behaviour now you have the YM being straight with you!

 

[Dunlin]

Aww thank you HBrae!

I'm too knackered to be galloping around all over the place! I've done a hunter trial and gone xc schooling but nothing more than oooo a toothpick sized log but in his and my head we have just completed Burghley fault free! That also only happens twice a year when I drink a lot of Red Bull to see me through it I'm just happy doing my 30 minute lessons and hacking, I enjoy grooming, cleaning tack and mucking out just as much! I've pretty much reverted to how I was aged 12, desperate to be with horses and loved every job no matter how grim or mundane it was! I am vastly over 18 and also drive

He's had his action days being an ex hunter, I still took him along to a meet dressed up all nice so he could have a social morning out but I left before the off.... not that brave anymore! He's an absolute gent to ride, I'd go as far as saying bulletproof! It's part of why it saddens me. From what I was told he tries to eat or boot in the head any other field mate he has had, yet at the hunt meet he didn't once try to nibble anyone and had the hounds running round his legs and he didn't stamp or kick once! We bonded straight away in the ridden work but he's always had this devil streak in the field since day 1 and it's only got worse recently as I'm pretty sure he's feeding off my nerves and has got complacent that I won't punch him in the face!

Owner returned my call tonight and we had a brief chat. She doesn't want to involve a trainer even though I offered to pay for just a few initial visits. We'll see what happens at the weekend with our full chat.

The yard does offer Full and Part Livery, naturally he's on DIY. Unfortunately due to his behaviour the YM has refused to entertain the idea due to her staffs safety. I can't blame her either.

I won't see him till Friday now, need my rest days! I might try him on the lunge, not done it for a while so may have to bribe someone to help! With any luck it may help with our ground level communication!

 

[Honey08]

Crikey, I can't believe nobody thought to mention it. The owner is bad enough, but if I was the yard owner and I was worried enough to refuse to allow my staff to do full livery on the horse, I would certainly warn a fairly new and novice sharer about him before they went off doing jobs in the field. That's down right dangerous! Shame on the lot of them.

I don't actually think you will get anywhere with the behaviourist and owner route. I think that unless you are happy to catch him, bring him straight in and tie him up while you groom etc, and do field jobs while he is in the stable, then otherwise I would walk away from the share and find something easier.

 

[HBrae2]

Right, if relocating to the North of Scotland and hacking out with me isn’t an option and you want to still share this horse then we need to get practical! While I totally agree with others that the owner and YM have behaved appallingly in not being honest with you, you seem to really enjoy riding him and being with him, just not in the field. Therefore everyone is right in saying that you need to get rid of this problem by bringing him in while doing your field chores. It would need professional help to change his field behaviour and it would require a consistent approach at all times from everyone who deals with him – and it doesn’t sound like that’s ever going to happen!
My suggestion would be to put a field safe headcollar on him and leave it on. When you are up to see him walk confidently up to him, catch him, exit field and tie him up with a hay net (obviously change to a normal headcollar once you are out the field) or put him in his stable (if he has one?). You can then do the things you need to in the field. If he is aggressive when you go to catch him then make yourself as big as possible and I like the rope spinny idea if he runs at you. If you can make this his “routine” with you (catch quietly, out of field, tie up with hay) then he should hopefully know what the pattern is and will follow this routine without defending his field.
There’s no point in saying that you should give him up if you don’t want to, but make sure that the owner does her share of the field duties, it’s not fair for you to be doing everything!!! And above all don’t do things in the field when he’s there!

 

[TrasaM]

Stop the treats!
You will see results fairly soon.....

Agree.. I saw the same behaviours in a friends horse who liked to be fussed over and would get quite threatening if he didn't get his own way. We noticed a significant change in behaviour after a friends partner got him in to the habit of being scratched and fussed over. At one point he got very aggressive with friends daughter because he wasn't getting the attention he was demanding. Same body language , ears back head shaking and then showing his rear end. He was not kept alone but he was at the bottom of the pecking order so any human he could boss about he would be a horror with.
Try being a bit more distant and less fussing and cuddles and no hand fed treats.

Seems a shame to give up a share on a horse you are getting on well with when ridden. Also agree that he probably needs some lead work doing to establish who is in charge of the show. I've done this with my share horse and its really helped to establish who is leading who. and its made up of little things so each time he pulls even a little bit if I'm leading we stop. He waits to be invited into and out of his stall and he has to move out of my way. In fact exactly how he treats his field mate

P.S. oooohhh .. Just read your update. How dishonest not to tell you these things at the start! And expecting you to deal with his problems when she's just been letting things carry on like this and does not seem to want to address them. Can't think of any reason why, if you are willing to pay, that you can't get someone to help you and the horse.

 

[CBFan]

The behavior you describe is an example of a normal herd instinct that has become confused. Geldings are often somewaht confused hormonaly anyway.This horse considers himself head of the herd and you are that herd. When you go away this is bad herd behaviour on your part and needs to be punnished. Its not personal and dont get into the idea that he "hates" you. They dont think like that. You need to distance yourself a bit ,and not make a fuss of him. He needs to learn that you are the boss not him. He needs to learn to keep his distance from you until YOU tell him its ok. Carry a lunge whip and shoo him away if he tries to invade your space. Find things to do in the field that do not involve him ,and ignore him .Keep him at a distance and firmly in his place. And when yo have finnished ,go and dont talk to him. He is confused and needs to be kindly but firmly put in his place.

This. Poor, Poor Horse. This issue has clearly been going on for years and instead of addressing it, the owner has chosen to work around it which has caused an increasingly dangerous situation.

I would have NO hesitation in entering this field armed with a schooling whip or lunge whip and I wouldn't hesitate to give this horse a short sharp one across the chest or buttocks (whichever end was closest!) if it made an agressive move towards me. If he came up to me politely I would make a fuss of him (no treats) and spend some time with him. reward good behaviour, punish bad (no other horse would tollerate this so you shouldn't either and a slap with a stick is no worse than a bite or kick from another horse. Once you have gained this initial respect you can begin the natural horsemanship type 'games' and bonding... but with this horse, you need to be very firm to begin with.

Feeding in the field needs to stop and this horse needs a routine. He needs bringing into his stable at feed times and to generally make a fuss of and or ride and then putting out in the field to eat grass. he really needs company but I can completely understand why no one would want their horse in with him. Does he have company over the fence?

it goes without saying but ALWAYS wear your hat and if possible a body protector around this horse. Accidents can happen in the blink of an eye...