diagnosis of navicular heading our way??

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miss_wilson

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hi everyone,

18 months ago my mare showed signs of pain, by not wanting to trot, i got the vet and we found she was 4/10 lame of both fronts on the hard, difficult to tell as she was lame on both! she had x rays which showed a small navicular cyst, nerve blocked etc etc, anyway she ended up with heart bars and gel for a few months then went back to normal shoes, and a new very good farrier!! vet said unlikely to be navic as sound within 6 weeks!! i took her back to Leahurst in November cause i was worried that my insurance cover was about to exclude all hoof problems and thought they should check her! she was fine, looked great..... big relief!!
fast forward to 2 weeks ago when she ditched me good style by bronching me off!! very out of character! then since then she refused point blank to do anymore than walk in the school, she moves off the leg great, just refuses to transition to trot, swishing tail and generally saying no!!
Being a worrier i had her blood tested last week, surprise surprise results are clear! so off we went to leahurst again this afternoon, to drop her off for a scope to rule out ulcers... popped her on the hard first to check and she had a slight nod on the right fore! ditto when lunged on the hard, only slight but there, so nerve blocked the fetlock, right now sound.... slightly lame on left!!
vet now thinks its navic.... rubbish news is that we are no longer insured!!!!!!!!!
He seems to think prognosis is poor? i have left her in overnight so she can have x rays and nerve blocks to the navic bursa and coffin joint tomorrow to try an isolate it, would love to MRI but moving house in 2 weeks so its a no go :mad:

Just feel gutted she is only 9 and we do everything from hacking along the beach to eventing! I was seriously hoping for hormones not lameness! I know vets give worst case but he painted a very grim picture for my horse of a lifetime, she is a pony for life not a `get fit and get rid!`



Gutted!!
 
Have a look at the Rockley Farm blog and search for barefoot rehab and navicular on here.

It's not gloom and doom at all - but many Vets and farriers are sadly behind the times when it comes to treating navicular.
 
OP I was feeling like you two years ago when my girl was diagnosed with navicular but I'm pleased to say that with a couple of changes to her routine she's doing great. She's 17 yo, ridden about 4 times a week, mainly hacking although I usually school her once a week and she is enjoying life.
 
I agree with the others. Prognosis may be poor using traditional shoeing techniques, but Rockley Farm has an 80% success rate for return to equal level of work or higher.
 
I feel very sorry for you as I also had my mare x rayed yesterday and she was diagnosed with navicular. My vet is a bit more positive about the long term for her, he thinks that with corrective shoeing and good management for the rest of her life we should be able to keep riding her for many years to come. I did ask about barefoot and he was not keen.
 
Just be aware.. With shoes Navicular is a degenerative condition and will get worse over time, I think it's something like 10% of horses return to work (at the pre lameness level) following this route. Take the shoes off, and rehab in the right way, and you're looking more like 85% return to full work (or better than pre lameness) plus the condition s no longer degenerative and will start to heal itself as per Scarlett's link above.

My vet wasn't keen initially but I presented the facts, we got our referral and he has since sent two other horses to Rockley as he as been so impressed with the results.
 
Welly - don't forget that the horse belongs to you and not the Vet, the ultimate decision to what route his/her treatment takes is yours. If you decide that you are willing to put the time, money and effort into a BF rehab, then that is your choice. It would of course be wonderful, if like L_E you could get your Vet onside and possibly refer your horse to Rockley (if the insurance would cover it) as this would be a great way forward for your horse. You could rehab the horse at your current yard if that isn't an option.
 
Just another one to point you in the direction of barefoot. I was in the same position as you, my mare was 7 when she was diagnosed. I wasted 2 years trying egg bar shoes but ended up removing shoes and now have a very happy pony.

Mine went to Rockley which is always a good option but you can do it yourself! Oberon I'm no doubt will also help out but feel free to PM me if you like.

BTW my vet was not keen either but I'm afraid I did it anyway and he now acknowledges that her feet are much stronger. :)
 
OP navicular is not the end of the road. It's just the start of a new road. Mine was diagnosed with navicular, hind limb PSLD, bilateral spavin and arthritis in one fetlock in October 2010. I couldn't afford to send her to Rockley, so with the help of people from on here (Cptrayes and Oberon should get huge thanks) and a good barefoot trimmer, diet alterations, she is in work now and apart from some stiffness in the fetlock where the arthritis is, she is doing superbly. We have had some setbacks and the vets have completely written her off and are staggered that she keeps coming back. Dressage next month!
 
Thanks for all your replies!!
I picked her up this afternoon!
Vet says her navicular x rays are unchanged from 18 months ago, when they blocked the navicular bursa and the coffin she remained 3/10 lame on the right, they blocked fetlock and she came almost fully sound! So they medicated the fetlock!
From the x rays vet says she needs a bit more heel so recommended heart bars with small wedge to realign the balance.
I asked about barefoot and he wasn't completely negative, said its a definate option but not at the moment as she needs to grow more heel!
We did have the conversation that if it flares up again, or she doesn't become sound that finances are not infinite given the exclusions on the insurance policy, that it might not be such a positive outcome.
We are based in Cheshire
Thanks
 
Your vet sounds well intentioned, but misinformed imo. Did you ask how heart bars and wedges will help the horse grow heel?

For that you need a well connected hoof capsule, firstly. Then you need the hoof to be functioning the way it has evolved to - it can't do this in heart bars and wedges. The hoof has evolved on a system of pressure and release - pressure as the hoof hits the floor, and release as it lifts again during movement. This is the stimulation that develops the structures of the foot. Heart bars and wedges will apply constant pressure and prevent stimulation. I suspect you'll end up paying a lot of money for them, and a few months down the line you'll have a horse with feet worse than they are now.
 
Basically, you have wasted your time and money. Your vet may as well have been casting spells. Not your fault, just the way it is.

Don't fanny about with heart bars or any other fancy shoe, complete waste of time and money.

Get the shoes off, if you cannot take your horse barefoot yourself get Rockley to do it for you.

Horse will be sound in weeks.

Good luck, hope to hear horse is sound very soon.
 
Pale Rider said:
Basically, you have wasted your time and money. Your vet may as well have been casting spells. Not your fault, just the way it is.

Don't fanny about with heart bars or any other fancy shoe, complete waste of time and money.

Get the shoes off, if you cannot take your horse barefoot yourself get Rockley to do it for you.

Horse will be sound in weeks.

Good luck, hope to hear horse is sound very soon.
Click to expand...

Have to agree, whip them off. (easier said than done I know). I have a navic diagnosis, two years ago this October. I took the shoes off, got the diet right, took loads of advice, ive never looked back. He's has been sound ever since. There are so many posts on here now about successful cases of navicular since people have removed shoes that I hope it might make you think it may help you.
 
I think that people assume - because shoeing horses is so common - that it is backed up by scientific research. This is not the case. In fact all the research that I have seen (starting 200 years ago with Bracy Clark, right up to the single shoeing cycle on dressage horses done recently) concludes that shoeing damages hooves (not just because of the nail holes either). When project Dexter is completed it will be very interesting reading. Another study that was linked to, quoted 10% chance of recovery from a particular form of navicular using shoes and 85% chance of recovery using a barefoot rehab. Now surely that's a no-brainer?
 
Ohhhh please listen to the advice above! I have just had a diagnosis of collateral ligament desmitis by MRI. X rays clean blocked out to the foot. I had an hour and halfs discussion with my vet yesterday about said "heartbars" shoes witha possible pad or wedge accessory! He knows I want to try barefoot and was completely against it!! I went armed with the vets briefing paper from Rockley and said I may want a referral to there. Hour and a half of waht felt like being on a uni debate team and I had him on a complete turnaround! He is a great vet and he did admit that it wasnt something he had ever seen or heard or recommended himself, but that the facts spoke for themselves. He said he was happy to refer me and really interested to see how it went as "anything we can do to get these horses right" has to be considered! I told him to give Nic at rockley a call if he wanted any further info. If you read enough about it, there is no argument. Even if you were to put shoes on in 6 months or so, you would have a significantly stronger hoof, although the shoes will eventually cause the same damage as before I guess. Horses cannot "grow" heels in shoes. They dont grow heels the develop them, like we would a muscle. The area you need to develop is soft tissue, it needs work and stimulation. If you look at my recent post under jessieblue, progress or not, it shows the change in my boys feet after about 3 weeks with fronts off now! You can see the difference and that is just at home with change in diet and coping with a very footsore lad with hoofboots on and off. Please at least read all the info before making decisions. It is very likely you have soft tissue damage which responds so well to the barefoot rehab. You will no doubt find vets and farriers look at you in horror when you mention it to start with. You have to be strong to stand up against them but at the end of the day you have to do whats best for you and your horse. One day very soon, someone at the top level will use a barefoot rehab and then everyone will be doing it. It will happen, the thing is that professionals dont really talk about injuries to their horses for obvious reasons! Can I also add, barefoot is also a very cheap treatment when you consider the costs of veterinary treatments, diagnostics and remedial shoes and pads!! Rockley charge little more than full livery for approx 12 weeks, no farrier costs, no x rays scans injections or box rest! My MRI cost £1320! I neednt really have bothered as the barefoot will take care of any hoof lameness by strengthening the hoof capsule and all its structures. I spend about £50 for 2 months supplements and feed is cheap and cheerful as you want the lowest sugar/starch combo, just like you would for a laminitic horse. Its really not rocket science! Good luck whatever you decide to do, please let us know how it goes!
 
I am very interested in barefoot as I want her to get better and stay sound! But it's a scary option, almost easier to go along with the vet!
I agree that how can heels grow when wedges are in place?
Can someone please pm me done details on the transition to barefoot? She currently has no shoes on so I need to be thinking of the path to take.

Thanks for all your replies
 
miss_wilson said:
Thanks for all your replies!!
I picked her up this afternoon!
Vet says her navicular x rays are unchanged from 18 months ago, when they blocked the navicular bursa and the coffin she remained 3/10 lame on the right, they blocked fetlock and she came almost fully sound! So they medicated the fetlock!
From the x rays vet says she needs a bit more heel so recommended heart bars with small wedge to realign the balance.
I asked about barefoot and he wasn't completely negative, said its a definate option but not at the moment as she needs to grow more heel!
We did have the conversation that if it flares up again, or she doesn't become sound that finances are not infinite given the exclusions on the insurance policy, that it might not be such a positive outcome.
We are based in Cheshire
Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi, I know exactly how you are feeling but please don't be disheartened. My pony's story is here:-

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?626252-A-big-thank-you-to-all-barefooters

and might just give you some hope but I wouldn't recommend going the same route as I did. I'm sure I would've got where I am now a lot quicker if I'd taken the shoes off years ago but it is very difficult to argue with vet's/farrier's advice especially when the horse is insured.

Other people have already pointed you in the right direction for lots of advice and information. I wish you luck and hope things start looking up for you soon :)
 
miss_wilson said:
I am very interested in barefoot as I want her to get better and stay sound! But it's a scary option, almost easier to go along with the vet!
Click to expand...

Think about it - how nuts is that? Horses aren't born with shoes, they really should be able to function without them. It has somehow become so engrained into the equine community that shoes are normal and unshod is abnormal that logic has gone out the window. Nic was talking in one of her posts about how a veterinary textbook labelled the shoe as part of the hoof anatomy!

As I said earlier - this is your horse, not the Vet's.

Can someone please pm me done details on the transition to barefoot? She currently has no shoes on so I need to be thinking of the path to take.

Thanks for all your replies
Click to expand...

Nic at Rockley really would be a good starting point.
 
Faracat said:
Another study that was linked to, quoted 10% chance of recovery from a particular form of navicular using shoes
Click to expand...

Just wanted to clarify this as I have seen the study.

It broke down the types of pathologies that get grouped under navicular and yes collateral ligament damage did come back as about 10% recovery rate however others such as ddft has slightly higher success rates, just over 20%.

I spent 18 month on the traditional route with my tb who had no heels and I have photos showing his heels getting worse and worse. He ended going to Rockley in 2010 (Frankie) and the first thing my vet said when I got him back was "he's got heels now!".
 
TwoStroke said:
Your vet sounds well intentioned, but misinformed imo. Did you ask how heart bars and wedges will help the horse grow heel?

For that you need a well connected hoof capsule, firstly. Then you need the hoof to be functioning the way it has evolved to - it can't do this in heart bars and wedges. The hoof has evolved on a system of pressure and release - pressure as the hoof hits the floor, and release as it lifts again during movement. This is the stimulation that develops the structures of the foot. Heart bars and wedges will apply constant pressure and prevent stimulation. I suspect you'll end up paying a lot of money for them, and a few months down the line you'll have a horse with feet worse than they are now.
Click to expand...



Couldn't agree more............heart bars and wedges to grow heals....I don't think so either!
 
Pale Rider said:
Basically, you have wasted your time and money. Your vet may as well have been casting spells. Not your fault, just the way it is.

Don't fanny about with heart bars or any other fancy shoe, complete waste of time and money.

Get the shoes off, if you cannot take your horse barefoot yourself get Rockley to do it for you.

Horse will be sound in weeks.

Good luck, hope to hear horse is sound very soon.
Click to expand...

As much as I agree with going barefoot, I don't think that its realistic to say that all horses will be sound within weeks....it took mine 5 months to be totally sound (went to Rockley, correct diet etc). I think that many people fail going barefoot as they don't see results quickly and throw in the towel.....you need to be prepared to put your horse first and give it the time needed IMO :)
 
As people are so fond of saying, 'all horses are different'. I've seen horses diagnosed with navicular recover very quickly, others may take longer.

I'm coming to the conclusion navicular disease is no disease at all, but an injury. An injury caused by shoes. This should be a welfare issue, but it won't be.
 
Pale Rider said:
As people are so fond of saying, 'all horses are different'. I've seen horses diagnosed with navicular recover very quickly, others may take longer.

I'm coming to the conclusion navicular disease is no disease at all, but an injury. An injury caused by shoes. This should be a welfare issue, but it won't be.
Click to expand...

Almost totally agree with you PR. It's caused, I think, by the atrophy of the back half of the foot. Most often caused by shoes but also caused in unshod horses by allowing the frog to lose contact with the ground.

I think many people would refer to a cure in less than half a year as "weeks" and the vast majority of horses with palmar hoof lameness seem to come sound in that time.
 
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