Diarrhoea on Raw diet

Aru said:
Are you aware that samonellosis is zoonotic?so can be passed to humans.and that infected dogs can show no clinical signs but can become carriers and shed the bacteria in the poo. It can also be very severe illness and is occasionaly fatal.the point im trying to make is not something to dismiss lightly.

Campylobactor and salmonella infection are known risks in feeding raw meat to any animal. It is unfortunatly not my experience that people are aware of this when they start on a raw diet. Quite the opposite in fact in the majority of cases that I have discussed it with owners they were not aware it was a risk or hadnt considered it. In some cases they informed me that Dogs cannot catch these disease's because their systems are designed to prevent it. Thats not what they taught us in vet school.quite the opposite in fact but a very popular myth. Dogs are less susceptible to these infections then humans,thats true...but they can and do pick up these infections if the load is high enough and the conditions are right...the same as any other bacterial infection and generally raw chicken is the cause. The level of dangerous bacteria found on the skin of human grade commerical chicken in the supermarket shelves has made the papers on more than one occasion. The bacteria are there and they are a risk, to try and claim otherwise because you have not personally been affected or heard of many cases is misleading. Personally I have never contracted salmonella despite exposure to it..but that doesnt mean I think I cannot. The constant claims that I read on raw threads where these infections are dismissed as insignificant is a worry.


lncidentally chronic diarrhoea that doesnt clear up on a change of diet can be campylobacter infection.worth considering if the pumpkin or other bulking agent doesnt work op.but hopefully its just because you arent feeding enough bone or offal.
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Aru, is it possible for a dog to get one of these infections from eating raw pheasant?
 
I asked way back in the thread how much you were feeding v how much the dog weighs. Be interested to know. Too much. Can = diahrrea. Too little can = constipation. It seems odd that the diet the dog was on = constipated. But now it's got the runs. Not saying you are doing anything wrong just curious
 
Possible as campy esp are bacteria thats frequently associated with birds and bird droppings..salmonella which is much more severe is a harder one to pin down to exact source in many cases esp as many animals can have it and shed it without showing any clinical signs...but on the scale of things a clean wild pheasant is safer in some ways then supermarket chicken. The major risk at the moment is campylobacter esp coming from commercial chicken stocks as theres a major problem controlling these bacteria in an intensive farming setting...the bacteria rarely affects the birds themselves and as human cook the birds and kill off most of these infections that way theres little incentive to try and control the issue. Its quite interesting really that the supermarket heavily labelled and clean looking birds are probs the most risky because of the way we artifically rear then and as the way we slaughter them.

Helpfully even blanching the chicken skin and carcass with boiling water can help reduce the chances of infection as this will kill a lot of these bugs.
 
Freezing chicken for two to three weeks can reduce Campylobacter by 90% according to an EU study. I try and source frozen raw chicken for the dogs directly from a DEFRA approved poultry industrial butchering plant where strict hygiene and freezing guidelines should be followed. I noticed a regular incidence of 24 hour tummy upsets when using meat from some raw dog food suppliers.
 
Aru said:
Possible as campy esp are bacteria thats frequently associated with birds and bird droppings..salmonella which is much more severe is a harder one to pin down to exact source in many cases esp as many animals can have it and shed it without showing any clinical signs...but on the scale of things a clean wild pheasant is safer in some ways then supermarket chicken. The major risk at the moment is campylobacter esp coming from commercial chicken stocks as theres a major problem controlling these bacteria in an intensive farming setting...the bacteria rarely affects the birds themselves and as human cook the birds and kill off most of these infections that way theres little incentive to try and control the issue. Its quite interesting really that the supermarket heavily labelled and clean looking birds are probs the most risky because of the way we artifically rear then and as the way we slaughter them.

Helpfully even blanching the chicken skin and carcass with boiling water can help reduce the chances of infection as this will kill a lot of these bugs.
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Thanks for that Aru. That confirms my suspicions even more about our dog. She's been very poorly recently, took her to the vet, and was given a weeks course of Metronidazole, and a 3 day course of Promax. I was certain it was something to do with the fact that she is always chomping on bits of dead pheasant lying around in the field I keep my horses in. (it's a Pheasant farm, the stupid things are everywhere!) The meds are finished now, but she's not completely out of the woods yet. I'm having to be very careful about what I feed her.
 
planete said:
Freezing chicken for two to three weeks can reduce Campylobacter by 90% according to an EU study. I try and source frozen raw chicken for the dogs directly from a DEFRA approved poultry industrial butchering plant where strict hygiene and freezing guidelines should be followed. I noticed a regular incidence of 24 hour tummy upsets when using meat from some raw dog food suppliers.
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When I was studying for my food hygiene certificate we were told that freezing causes bacteria to go dormant. It does not kill. When the food thaws and returns to ambient temperature, the bacteria rapidly multiply.
 
planete said:
Freezing chicken for two to three weeks can reduce Campylobacter by 90% according to an EU study. I try and source frozen raw chicken for the dogs directly from a DEFRA approved poultry industrial butchering plant where strict hygiene and freezing guidelines should be followed. I noticed a regular incidence of 24 hour tummy upsets when using meat from some raw dog food suppliers.
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Unfortunately the study also found that the chicken had to be frozen at -25 degrees C ; this is way way beyond the scope of all domestic freezers, although a commercial one would do the job nicely!

http://www.food.gov.uk/science/research/foodborneillness/b14programme/b14projlist/fs101025
 
Penny Less said:
ETA the opinion here is 10/10/80 ratio, Honeyfood firm in above posts says 1/3rd 1/3rd 1/3rd !
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Jeepers creepers! Not sure if this is what you're feeding your dog but if so get him off it now! Any diet that has offal as a third of it is going to be asking for trouble with a lot of dogs. Some you may get away with it, especially if they include heart (which anyway is technically muscle meat) in their 'offal' measurement; too much liver though is well recognised as causing the squits in a lot of dogs.
 
No Imnot, been reading their info though. They are recommended quite highly ! I feel really awful as he was ok when he came to me the first couple of days and I have obviously done something wrong. I did give him quite a lot of kidney one day as I didn't realise about the ratios. etc. Thought this might have caused the problem, but went back to just the chicken and tiny bit of veg. The foster owner just gave him chicken carcases and veg and fruit and offal, but didn't state the actual ratios. He didn't get up in the night but still has v runny poos this morning, the pumpkin seeds have come through whole ! I have made an appointment with the vet. This diet is obviously more complicated than I realised.
Im not at all happy about keeping him on it but until he is officially handed over to me after trial period I don't feel I can change him to
commercial tinned etc. I know people are against tinned, but I have had dogs all my life on commercial food and table scraps and never had problems.

Someone up thread asked about amounts. I was told to give two chicken carcases or 5 wings plus veg etc
He weighs just over 26 kg. He doesn't seem at all off colour, his nose is v dry but it was when I got him. You might remember he had
a bad case of itching/scabs etc which have cleared up, vet thought due to mites and given Advocate
 
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Penny Less said:
No Imnot, been reading their info though. They are recommended quite highly ! I feel really awful as he was ok when he came to me the first couple of days and I have obviously done something wrong. I did give him quite a lot of kidney one day as I didn't realise about the ratios. etc. Thought this might have caused the problem, but went back to just the chicken and tiny bit of veg. The foster owner just gave him chicken carcases and veg and fruit and offal, but didn't state the actual ratios. He didn't get up in the night but still has v runny poos this morning, the pumpkin seeds have come through whole ! I have made an appointment with the vet. This diet is obviously more complicated than I realised.
Im not at all happy about keeping him on it but until he is officially handed over to me after trial period I don't feel I can change him to
commercial tinned etc. I know people are against tinned, but I have had dogs all my life on commercial food and table scraps and never had problems.

Someone up thread asked about amounts. I was told to give two chicken carcases or 5 wings plus veg etc
He weighs just over 26 kg. He doesn't seem at all off colour, his nose is v dry but it was when I got him. You might remember he had
a bad case of itching/scabs etc which have cleared up, vet thought due to mites and given Advocate
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It's mainly liver that can give the squits, as someone said above. I would have thought that, being on mainly chicken carcasses or wings, he would be more likely to have hard poos than runny. Therefore it quite likely isn't the diet.

Perhaps your vet may be able to help advise what to feed him - though some vets are very anti raw (mine isn't but I've been told some are). If you explain that you aren't allowed to change his diet from raw until after the foster period is over I'm sure they'll be fine. If your boy has any underlying issues, then changing him onto tinned or dry food mightn't solve it.

Raw diet really doesn't have to be complicated. I started off by ordering a load of ready made minces from specialist raw feed companies (Honeys, Manifold Valley Meats, Raw 2 Go), which included bones and some offal in the "right" amounts, to make it easy for myself. I then topped it up with bits here and there - fruit, veg, bones, hearts, liver dehydrated in the oven to use as treats, a raw egg cracked over his dinner, oily fish once or twice per week. Starting to think the bloomin' dog eats better than I do!
 
So what replaces bone for firming up poo in commercial tins, is it the cereal or is there bonemeal in the tinss ? My dog never gets any bones as such.
 
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