Did anyone see Ceaser Milan interviewed by Alan Titchmarsh?

CL66 said:
There does seem to be a terrible outcry about the way dogs are treated and trained. But I do find it funny the way that doesn't spill over into horses. People seem to compartmentalise animal 'abuse'
Click to expand...

Interesting point.

It could be argued that the way people treat their dogs/horses and effectivelly RUIN them could be considered abuse. And that it takes a firm hand to get them back on track. What say you to that?

*not trying to cause an argument - just a discussion ;)
 
itsmylife said:
Maybe if he bothered to learn about dogs body language he would do beter, its very sad that people who call them selves dog people think hes ok.

prong collars, electric shock collars, alpha rolls etc etc all great training methods NOT
Click to expand...

it's quite noticable that those who shout loudest about cesar and his evil collars are always very quiet when it comes to questions about whether they use electric fencing to keep their horses contained or if they use bits or whips or spurs, as CL66 says 'compartmentalise';)
 
Puccinponi I absolutely agree, animals are ruined from both too much kindness and too much harshness. A friend has a spoiled yorkie, who as a result bites you and jumps on you if you try and sit on the sofa. But she says it's ok as he doesn't hurt you. I pointed out to her would it be ok if it was my 30kd gsp
 
Damn didnt mean to post. Anyway, IMO a dogs a dog regardless of size/breed and should be treated as such. And nowadays everyone seems to push positive reinforcement....and any form of punishment makes you the devil?!? It just seems double standards to me when those same people will slap on saddle, bit etc then use aids to ride their horse. Hmmm how is that not negative reinforcement according to how they say dogs need to be trained?? Surely someone should be running in front of it with a treat at all times ;) :D. Sorry, being flip but hoping I make a point in there somewhere?
 
CL66 said:
Damn didnt mean to post. Anyway, IMO a dogs a dog regardless of size/breed and should be treated as such. And nowadays everyone seems to push positive reinforcement....and any form of punishment makes you the devil?!? It just seems double standards to me when those same people will slap on saddle, bit etc then use aids to ride their horse. Hmmm how is that not negative reinforcement according to how they say dogs need to be trained?? Surely someone should be running in front of it with a treat at all times ;) :D. Sorry, being flip but hoping I make a point in there somewhere?
Click to expand...

Aw..but doggies are cute and fluffy :D
 
I thought the AT interview was refreshing I don't like the hero worship that goes on around Cesar who doesn't really seem to understand the body language of dogs, he could avoid being bitten if he did at times. He also doesn't seem flexible enough or interested in looking at different ways of doing things. For those reasons I avoid him and his work. I've also never believed in quick fix TV solutions and think they are border line dangerous when it comes to animal behaviour modification.

I do use positive reinforcement training. I don't walk along the road shovelling treats into the mouth of my dog! I recently visited a club other than my own and was surprised to see negative training methods in action. Never seen more confused dogs or stressed handlers. But some people seem to want to stay stuck in the "this is way I've always done things so this is the way I'll always do them" lifestyle.

When I was younger I also used choke chains etc. I once thought CM was OK but I've moved on and get better results now.
 
ladyearl said:
I thought the AT interview was refreshing I don't like the hero worship that goes on around Cesar who doesn't really seem to understand the body language of dogs, he could avoid being bitten if he did at times. He also doesn't seem flexible enough or interested in looking at different ways of doing things. For those reasons I avoid him and his work. I've also never believed in quick fix TV solutions and think they are border line dangerous when it comes to animal behaviour modification.
Click to expand...

LE I agree with you. I cant stand the hero worship around him either.

Im by no means ‘soft’ on my dogs. I work a pack structure and Im the leader, they do as they are told, first time. Yes, I train with reward based training, set the dog up to achieve and succeed in little steps and reward this. I also believe however that reward based training has an ‘evangelical’ following and has gone too far the other way. I like to use reward based training as the foundation of everything I do but I also believe there have to be consequences for stepping out of line and a dog needs to be told as much. In the correct hands and used appropriately, most training tools have a place. Some dogs are so hard wired that no matter how much work you put into them, something like a shock collar is a last resort; pull it up short to stop it going after stock or into traffic and save it’s life or face being pts.

What I dont like about CM is that from what Ive seen, he seems to set dogs up to fail, rather than succeed, for the sake of a good TV show.

interesting points and reading in this thread.
 
I agree NsN, I think some of the more evangelical positive trainers are equally inflexible and refuse to take on board that some dogs do not respond well to 'ignore the bad and reward the good' because it does not work on self-rewarding dogs.
I'm not saying take the head off the dog, I'm saying you do not give it the option to engage in the bad behaviour and a lot of the positive methods give the dog too many options.

You can't in my opinion, train a flighty, noise sensitive collie who's world collapses when you raise your voice, in the same way as you treat a small, gobby lapdog who has been allowed to rule the roost, in the same way as you train a large, smart German Shepherd who will gamble with you at every opportunity and potentially put himself and others in danger.
Horses for courses, use what suits the dog.

And as with others, my own group has seen a lot of dogs who have been chucked out/asked to leave other groups, where the trainers have either not been able to help or who have admitted they are scared of the dogs involved, the dogs have turned up like absolute ratbags and have run rings around their owners...I'd prefer to put a bit of pressure/compulsion on a dog like that (you WILL do x, you will NOT do Y) resulting in a happier dog (who knows black from white, dogs do not like ambiguity and will express this through unhappiness, bad behaviour and moving into a position they do not want or are not able to cope with being in) and a happier owner.
 
CaveCanem said:
I agree NsN, I think some of the more evangelical positive trainers are equally inflexible and refuse to take on board that some dogs do not respond well to 'ignore the bad and reward the good' because it does not work on self-rewarding dogs.
I'm not saying take the head off the dog, I'm saying you do not give it the option to engage in the bad behaviour and a lot of the positive methods give the dog too many options.

You can't in my opinion, train a flighty, noise sensitive collie who's world collapses when you raise your voice, in the same way as you treat a small, gobby lapdog who has been allowed to rule the roost, in the same way as you train a large, smart German Shepherd who will gamble with you at every opportunity and potentially put himself and others in danger.
Horses for courses, use what suits the dog.

And as with others, my own group has seen a lot of dogs who have been chucked out/asked to leave other groups, where the trainers have either not been able to help or who have admitted they are scared of the dogs involved, the dogs have turned up like absolute ratbags and have run rings around their owners...I'd prefer to put a bit of pressure/compulsion on a dog like that (you WILL do x, you will NOT do Y) resulting in a happier dog (who knows black from white, dogs do not like ambiguity and will express this through unhappiness, bad behaviour and moving into a position they do not want or are not able to cope with being in) and a happier owner.
Click to expand...


Very much my own mind set too. And yet I too agree with the dislike of the hero-worship. I call it the "happy clappy brigade" which happens round any flavor of the week in any circle. I don't like the marketing and money making hype which surrounds that type. However, I still watch with interest now and again, and somethings I can take away to try and find that good results happen...particularly as i'm not in a position to try to retrain or rehabilitate people's bad behaved dogs. I can only try to encourage good behaviour by not allowing the bad.

By that same token, much of what I do with dogs on the table are of the same philosophy that I've been taught when it comes to dealing with my horse. For example, a dog who constantly pulls I won't pull against, I might give it a wee nudge and then when it rights itself to the correct position, I make a fuss and tell him he's good. I never ever use treats to reward a dog that is in for grooming (for a variety of reasons). But I also don't give it a roasting unless it *really* needs it. But I do firmly try to let him know that there are boundries - and they are here, here and here. Step outside that and they'll be corrected in the kindest but quickest way that they'll remember.
 
TBH most of the comments on my FB feed from the past few days are incredibly anti-CM - when the vid of him being bitten came out there were lots of people crowing about how he deserved it, this past few days people have been cheering Alan Titchmarsh.
I've left a few FB groups because anyone who dares to suggest something like raising your voice to, say, a doberman that is attached to your own leg is a cruel barsteward and it can all be resolved with hugs and cuddles.

I don't actually know anyone who hero worships CM! Yes, he's part of a money making machine but I don't know any all-positive trainers working for free either.
 
I see happy-clappy folk about all sorts. I just usually step round them to see what the fuss is and either move swiftly on or secretely agree - but won't join the ranks of happy clappy cos it's just not me.

There are some seriously Anti CM people tho - who defintely seem to shout louder than the Pro CM's.
 
N_S_N,

a well reasoned post. I too have a reward system. I never use food because I think that it encourages a dog to be selfish, and to eventually learn how to please itself. The reward that my dog's get is sometimes as limited as being just a look, where the dog looks at me, and I at he, and we both "know".

I'll chose my words carefully now, and I'm not suggesting that this should apply to everyone, but; my dogs are my servants, and as such they will obey me. My dogs mean the world to me, but I see a clear distinction between a dog to which I'm grateful, and the reverse of that. The reward that my dogs get is when I allow them to work, and that would apply to all dogs, be it obedience, man work, TD work, sheep or gundogs. That doesn't apply to terriers, as the bloody things are as they are!!

I suppose that it's all about how we impose our will on a dog, and without at least a tacit degree of compliance, no dog is worth its food, in my view. I lead a pack. It may be a pack of 2 or 9, but it's still a pack, and when I bark, they listen (mostly!!).

C_C, an excellent post of yours. I don't think that there's any doubt that the dogs which have, as you've described, run rings around their owners, are never the happiest of dogs, are they? The happiest dog, it always seems to me, is the dog which has a bond with its owner, and one in which the dog respects its handler. Over time, and with the respect becoming a mutual capacity, the serious bond of man and dog is established, and would be just about unbreakable.

One small point about CM, we all accept that he's running a TV show, and that his subjects are all in need of finding their boundaries, and at that he's mostly, very good, but all we see is him striding off into the hills, with his pack at heal. I wonder if he's ever done any other canine work; "Other", as in has he ever used a dog, for its bred for purpose. I'm sure that he'd probably be very good at what ever it was, but I do wonder if he ever steps away from the telly, and goes beyond the "breaking" stage.

Alec.
 
Work is work is work - if I didn't work my dog in what I am working him in now, he'd be happy to do a cycling endurance or dock diving etc - as long as they're doing *something* to work the body and brain, hence his use of a treadmill in some of his shows.
 
I’m not going to say too much - some people don’t think you can compare children to dogs. However as a teacher with a number of years of experience and a dog trainer - I have to say the basics of ‘training’ are really very similar:o. Whether it be dog or child; set them up for success, not failure. Reward success. Set clear boundaries. Set out fair consequences for overstepping the line. CONSISTENCY ! Moreover accept that one cannot use the same approach with every dog in your pack - (or with every child in your class). Everyone has a different learning style and so as the educator it is our job to find ways to engage the individual you see before you and facilitate their learning. Child or dog, whole class of 30 or pack of dogs - ime are happy and content when they know their place and understand their boundaries.
 
NeverSayNever said:
I’m not going to say too much - some people don’t think you can compare children to dogs. However as a teacher with a number of years of experience and a dog trainer - I have to say the basics of ‘training’ are really very similar:o. Whether it be dog or child; set them up for success, not failure. Reward success. Set clear boundaries. Set out fair consequences for overstepping the line. CONSISTENCY ! Moreover accept that one cannot use the same approach with every dog in your pack - (or with every child in your class). Everyone has a different learning style and so as the educator it is our job to find ways to engage the individual you see before you and facilitate their learning. Child or dog, whole class of 30 or pack of dogs - ime are happy and content when they know their place and understand their boundaries.
Click to expand...

This sentance stood out for me, Im from Alec's perspective, where I love my dogs like children (but not as much as my cats! :p) but they are DOGS at the end of the day, they are to do as they are told, when they are told!
I had a terrier who I taught to do every trick in the book and from doing that he always held a candle to me. I didnt have any formal training, I gave him a treat when he did as I wanted, I didnt when he didnt. simples. He was often naughty as terriers are and he got told off for that but relitively he was the best behaved dog I have come across, barely left my side and obeyed a command from wherever I was and was one happy poochy because of that.

However! My mums lurcher and dachshund are the type that need persuading and coaching through life. If you shout at the dachshund she pees herself!!!! They dont have the same tendancy to test the boundaries, they just want food, water, sofas and fires. You see alot less of these on the CM shows - no coincidence!
 
I was so glad to see that Alan Titchmarsh had the courage of his convictions to confront the media machine that is Cesar Milan.
Cesar Milan has been prosecuted in the US for using his punitive methods and now is careful what he says and how his programs are filmed.
I have seen, on National Geographic, a film where he is unable to get a large dog to perform aggressively for the camera so he kicks it in the guts. The dog then jumps up at him and in doing so tears his shirt. There are lots of camera shots of his torn shirt. He then hangs the dog by its choke chain. The next shot is of the dog lying prostrate on the floor. The camera zooms in and we see that the dog's tongue is blue and there is a pool of urine around its penis. The camera moves to Cesar Milan who is looking triumphantly at the camera.

Because to the outrage that this film caused it has been pulled by National Geographic.

Cesar Milan is just the front man for a huge money making machine.

I have spoken to some top behaviourists in this country and have asked them why they do not make some films to counter his. They have been approached many times but refuse because all thehours and hours of hard work they do with a dog is left on the cutting room floor.
 
Need to work???:D Must obey???:D:DPraise by "a look"???:D:D:D Hmm,this is all very foreign territory to my bull terriers!!!:D
Bribery and corruption is the way to their hearts, nagging and chastisement will earn you only the big ignore.I like mine like that,they are not stupid enough to work for no pay,not servile enough to be your slave,a dog of great character who at the end of the day has a very deep love of it`s keeper.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top