Difference between classical, and traditional English style riding

Cortez said:
Well, I wouldn't class Klimke as a "traditional" German rider at all, actually. he was famed for the lightness of his riding, and being able to ride difficult horses. Biotop was a Trakehner; very light, sensitive horses that many German riders find difficult.
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And Ahlerich (sp) was half TB.
 
This is just the thread I have been waiting for and I hope that it will provide much needed information as I embark into unchartered waters via the classical schooling route.
After 40 yrs of riding I had my very first lesson this week with a classical instructor. As my boy is only 3 1/2 we are starting with ground work to build him up first. Throughout his schooling so far (long reining etc) I have ensured that he responds to the lightest touch and without any aids.
So far, so good and I know I can probably succeed in producing a lovely riding pony but I want much more for him and for myself. Being a Sec D he already has a beautiful head carriage and elevated trot (not high stepping).
Having read Nuno Oliveira 'Reflections on Equestrian Art' and seen video clips of him riding I am in awe.
Exciting times for me :D
 
Cortez said:
Well, I wouldn't class Klimke as a "traditional" German rider at all, actually. he was famed for the lightness of his riding, and being able to ride difficult horses. Biotop was a Trakehner; very light, sensitive horses that many German riders find difficult.
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I don't think Klimke fits any particular school, though I stand to be corrected. I do know that his books and focus on the scales of training are advocated reading in many traditional riding establishments.
 
vineyridge said:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the French school of dressage. The very basis for starting and working with and refining horses is just about the polar opposite of the German theories that are taught so much today all over the world of dressage. The French (I'm not sure this is entirely correct) say "balance before forward" while the Germans say "Forward before balance."

I think that until the 1950s or 1960s the Saumur style of dressage was taught worldwide. It certainly was a tremendous influence on US Cavalry training and the development of the American style of riding of that era and later.
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That is what I believe. I like horses to be balanced and carry themselves before I ask for too much impulsion. If you do what many people say and get impulsion first, then this forces them onto the forehand. Then when you want outline you have to have a heavy contact to achieve it. I don't like that way of doing it. Horses just end up with numb mouths. :(
 
I think it must make a difference what type of horse you working with also though. An Iberian surely is worked and developed differently to an ISH. I think a classical style which involves minimal rein suits an Iberian far better than it would a horse which is naturally more downhill, longer in the back and neck and less naturally balanced.
 
"Schools" of riding have developed as much in response to the types of horse being used as to theories. The German horses were quite heavy and "cold" in the 19thc, whereas the Spanish (the original 17th/18thc manege horse) are hotblooded and super sensitive horses. The French school originally used Spanish, then went over to the "new" Thoroughbred types in the 19thc, and the influence of Baucher (who LOVED TB horses) must not be forgotten.
 
I think there is some confusion also about what impulsion affects. A young horse working freely forward in the traditional manner has a very light contact. You only take up a contact to encourage the horse to elevate the shoulders and take more weight behind. If it is heavy in the hand then it isn't elevated in front & has collapsed onto the forehand, which is inevitable periodically with young horses, but which you rectify quickly - or let the horse have a rest.
 
Cortez said:
"Schools" of riding have developed as much in response to the types of horse being used as to theories. The German horses were quite heavy and "cold" in the 19thc, whereas the Spanish (the original 17th/18thc manege horse) are hotblooded and super sensitive horses. The French school originally used Spanish, then went over to the "new" Thoroughbred types in the 19thc, and the influence of Baucher (who LOVED TB horses) must not be forgotten.
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I am just reading a book about/by the Inezo brothers, they would be most offended about the absence of a mention of the Naples school. Interestingly the horses they thought were unsuitable for any disciplined activity were Hungarian & the best - Irish!
 
Ah, but Spanish horses are built on the hocks, most modern breeds are built on the shoulders, thanks to the prevelance of TB blood in everything these days. And the Neapolitan horses were old fashioned Spanish.
 
siennamum said:
I think it must make a difference what type of horse you working with also though. An Iberian surely is worked and developed differently to an ISH. I think a classical style which involves minimal rein suits an Iberian far better than it would a horse which is naturally more downhill, longer in the back and neck and less naturally balanced.
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You may be right there. My ID gelding was pretty heavy to keep together, but I didn't get him until he was 14 and so his early training was well instilled by then. Most the other horses I have ridden are finer warmbloods and thoroughbreds. None of them have had difficulty in going lightly in front, except for two of them that were trained in draw reins before I rode them.
 
Cortez said:
Ah, but Spanish horses are built on the hocks, most modern breeds are built on the shoulders, thanks to the prevelance of TB blood in everything these days. And the Neapolitan horses were old fashioned Spanish.
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I have always found TBs, even ex racers to be very easy to train to be light in front.
 
Thoroughbred horses are designed to run. They have a horizontal outline to facillitate the lowering of the shoulders, the swing of the hocks = speed. Schoo/manege horses are built uphill, with bendy hocks, strong hindquarters and a full crest to aid in the fulcrum that lifts the front over the back end. Tb's are delicate horses (I like them), but they are not uphill.
 
Wagtail you need an Iberian. My son rides a p/b Lusitano and I think has lost any interest in riding our ISH's - (he is teaching his horse to bow at the moment!)and quite naturally the horse holds himself in a balanced and light frame. It's taken me 2 years to get my ISH light and through consistently, my son's horse is just born that way. He doesn't look like he'll ever need more than the lightest contact.
 
Cortez said:
Thoroughbred horses are designed to run. They have a horizontal outline to facillitate the lowering of the shoulders, the swing of the hocks = speed. Schoo/manege horses are built uphill, with bendy hocks, strong hindquarters and a full crest to aid in the fulcrum that lifts the front over the back end. Tb's are delicate horses (I like them), but they are not uphill.
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You do get the occasional up hill TB, but most aren't, no. It does not mean they can't be trained to get back on their hocks and lighten the front end. I find them easier and faster to train than WBs. However, I have no experience with Spanish horses, which I understand find this type of work much more natural.
 
My goal with my 4 year old is self carriage - that's all I want. Because I know once we have this he will have a solid foundation. A horse without a solid foundation will find it difficult to find self carriage with a rider on board (IMO)
 
Horses for courses - many TB's (and their owners) struggle against their conformation. I adore my Iberians, but they are collection machines and find lengthening the way a Warmblood does difficult. I don't do serious dressage any more, if I did and wanted to win I would get a modern warmblood bred for the job.
 
I'm with you completely on this one Wagtail - I do think alot of people are put off Classical because they will automatically think of the Spanish School of Riding and aspiring to ride to that level is intimidating. However, if taught at a basic level is simple to understand, but does mean you have to work on your position, so you can be as effective as possible. If young horses were schooled in the basics in a classical way, I believe it would reduce many of the problems people encounter with their horses. Essentially a horse that has been trained this way and has self carriage is a joy to ride. Anja Beran is worth watching on You Tube.
 
I don't think the breed of horse matters much. Some find it easier than others, the ones that find it harder take longer that's all. I ride everything the same way if its mine, regardless of the breed/type of horse or how it was previously trained. I start from scratch and they all get there in the end.
 
I've just started with a classical trainer. My boy was causing me neck and back ache he would lean that much. Feel like we have gone backwards in terms of outline but to not have my arms pulled out is lovely.
 
What a great thread! I read with interest as I am finding my boy and I are in a little bit of a 'rut' at the moment and I am exploring the ideas of different approaches. We are currently school and competing at novice and are competant in this but by no means are either of us experts!

Can anyone recomend a good classical book to read and/or with excercises? Or equally recomend a classical instructor in Scotland?
 
Cortez said:
"Schools" of riding have developed as much in response to the types of horse being used as to theories. The German horses were quite heavy and "cold" in the 19thc, whereas the Spanish (the original 17th/18thc manege horse) are hotblooded and super sensitive horses. The French school originally used Spanish, then went over to the "new" Thoroughbred types in the 19thc, and the influence of Baucher (who LOVED TB horses) must not be forgotten.
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Ah, Cortez, if you haven't read 'em already I have a feeling you might like these books:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brother-Mendels-Perfect-Horse-warfare/dp/1846550882

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Noble-Brute...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349473266&sr=1-1
 
siennamum said:
I think it must make a difference what type of horse you working with also though. An Iberian surely is worked and developed differently to an ISH. I think a classical style which involves minimal rein suits an Iberian far better than it would a horse which is naturally more downhill, longer in the back and neck and less naturally balanced.
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It was a young and particularly 'downhill' type that persuaded me to learn a more classical riding technique. I needed to have to be completely in control of my body and position to encourage him into genuine self-carriage - we couldn't cheat as he would just go on his forehand, trip and fall, not pleasant!
 
canteron said:
It was a young and particularly 'downhill' type that persuaded me to learn a more classical riding technique. I needed to have to be completely in control of my body and position to encourage him into genuine self-carriage - we couldn't cheat as he would just go on his forehand, trip and fall, not pleasant!
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My boy is the same and classical training is doing us the world of good. I'm really aware of what I am asking for and how and the effect this has on his movement. Left to his own devices he goes long and low, and lower and on the forehand with me attempting to lift all 600kg of him backwards.
 
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