Difference between English and American English riding

[paddi22]

I find the attitude towards american/different from UK ways really strange. Along with the assumption that there is no contact when the horses are "on the bit" & in front of the leg. Contact isnt solely about about the tightness of the reins.

it's not just the tightness of the reins though. when I look at the videos in the tiktok posted earlier as a typical example of hunters,
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVwh4Pp/

I just see a strung-out horse falling along on its forehand, not using it's hind end correctly for canter, that isn't being helped by the rider at all and that is having to make a harder effort to jump in a very awkward way (by throwing its shoulders over the fence) while at the same time a rider is tipping onto those shoulders both on take off and landing. I don't think a cantering a strung out horse, heavy on the forehand, with its legs not coming correctly under its hind end is a healthy thing for a horse? I just don't see (on that level) what to admire about it, apart from a very obedient horse. am I missing something?

edited to say: I do prefer seeing this than some of the rougher jumping rounds in other disciplines that you see. at least the horse is calm and relaxed and not being abused in any way with harsh riding. I just can't work out in my head why it's put forward as a good example of jumping where the rider is so ineffective and the horse isn't being given the best chance to use its body correctly in a way that's most beneficial for it.

 

[marmalade76]

True but there's plenty of rich folk buying "made" horses in this country too.

Theres plenty to written on COTH about the trials of the not so rich (I.e. normal folks!) competing and trying to make it. They do a massive amount of work on their canter and take offs. Even on home produced "budget" horses they are aiming for the same end result.

Picking up on your RC comment the same could be said at BS, BE and unaffiliated. It's not a common occurrence to see a round that could be described as smooth and consistent (fully include myself) yet that very thing is criticised fairly regularly on here if an american (Canadian) is doing it.

I find the attitude towards american/different from UK ways really strange. Along with the assumption that there is no contact when the horses are "on the bit" & in front of the leg. Contact isnt solely about about the tightness of the reins.

I think part of the problem with how English folk see US horsemanship is that it's tainted by the extremes, big lick, Western pleasure, etc. The Parellis don't help, either.

 

[TPO]

I think part of the problem with how English folk see US horsemanship is that it's tainted by the extremes, big lick, Western pleasure, etc. The Parellis don't help, either.

Completely but I've got an american/english friend who cant understand why certain combinations are allowed to BE and why there isnt a minimum competence before being allowed to affiliate. So "we" dont exactly bathe ourselves in glory either

Like LEC said and is frequently posted about in here you can go to any rc/bs/be and see some scary riding.

Like @paddi22 said I'd rather see the rounds that are getting picked apart on this thread than what is the norm at BS shows around here

I'd argue (despite having no proof!) that in the uk we have more/easier access to training and yet how many concurrent rounds do you see that are smooth and in a rhythm hitting every take off spot?

"Not all riders" but the most basics of foundations appear to be missing in training horses and riders.

Again no clue if true but my impression is that mainland European riders spend more time on the basics and meeting certain levels before competing and/or moving up levels. Is it france that needs people to "qualify" to compete?

 

[marmalade76]

it's not just the tightness of the reins though. when I look at the videos in the tiktok posted earlier as a typical example of hunters,
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVwh4Pp/

I just see a strung-out horse falling along on its forehand, not using it's hind end correctly for canter, that isn't being helped by the rider at all and that is having to make a harder effort to jump in a very awkward way (by throwing its shoulders over the fence) while at the same time a rider is tipping onto those shoulders both on take off and landing. I don't think a cantering a strung out horse, heavy on the forehand, with its legs not coming correctly under its hind end is a healthy thing for a horse? I just don't see (on that level) what to admire about it, apart from a very obedient horse. am I missing something?

edited to say: I do prefer seeing this than some of the rougher jumping rounds in other disciplines that you see. at least the horse is calm and relaxed and not being abused in any way with harsh riding. I just can't work out in my head why it's put forward as a good example of jumping where the rider is so ineffective and the horse isn't being given the best chance to use its body correctly in a way that's most beneficial for it.

A lot of people who hunt don't ride well, don't help their horses, pull their back teeth out, etc, there's some really quite shocking riding to be seen on the hunting field. If these classes are about horses that will safely carry a half cut gentlemen over fences, they've got it right if you ask me!

 

[marmalade76]

Completely but I've got an american/english friend who cant understand why certain combinations are allowed to BE and why there isnt a minimum competence before being allowed to affiliate. So "we" dont exactly bathe ourselves in glory either

Like LEC said and is frequently posted about in here you can go to any rc/bs/be and see some scary riding.

Like @paddi22 said I'd rather see the rounds that are getting picked apart on this thread than what is the norm at BS shows around here

I'd argue (despite having no proof!) that in the uk we have more/easier access to training and yet how many concurrent rounds do you see that are smooth and in a rhythm hitting every take off spot?

"Not all riders" but the most basics of foundations appear to be missing in training horses and riders.

Again no clue if true but my impression is that mainland European riders spend more time on the basics and meeting certain levels before competing and/or moving up levels. Is it france that needs people to "qualify" to compete?

Totally agree with you, see my other comments re the hunting field!

 

[LEC]

I think they are spectacularly bad examples chosen. Bunnydog posted a lovely video of american seat in competition riders and nobody would moan about that and she is an amateur.

UK riding scene is incredibly 'rustic' and that's a polite word compared to the rest of the world when it comes to horses. Most horses in Europe are kept on nice yards. Americans either have their own place or they are on very expensive livery which has everything chucked in including lessons. You just do not on the whole get scrappy livery yards with a ramshackle stable in 2ft of mud in the winter like here or horses kept in allotments. Horses are cheap to keep in the UK, they are not round rest of the world. Even Australia - loads of land but forage is expensive.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think they are spectacularly bad examples chosen. Bunnydog posted a lovely video of american seat in competition riders and nobody would moan about that and she is an amateur.

UK riding scene is incredibly 'rustic' and that's a polite word compared to the rest of the world when it comes to horses. Most horses in Europe are kept on nice yards. Americans either have their own place or they are on very expensive livery which has everything chucked in including lessons. You just do not on the whole get scrappy livery yards with a ramshackle stable in 2ft of mud in the winter like here or horses kept in allotments. Horses are cheap to keep in the UK, they are not round rest of the world. Even Australia - loads of land but forage is expensive.

Yes and no. When I was in the US, the prices were comparable to the UK (ish... depends where you are... outside of New York City is expensive), but I was not at those boarding barns that include lessons or horse training in the price. There are plenty that don't have such 'programs' if you don't want them. However, I will agree that the overall standards of barns is higher than here. Even now (I've been in the UK since 2006), I'm shocked by the amount of ramshackle, run-down barns I've seen when I've had to yard-hunt. Some aren't even that cheap! Most recently, I was horrified by the amount of yards keeping horses behind saggy barbed wire fences. Stop being such an American about it!

That said, I can't speak for everywhere in the US, either. I've only kept my horse in Boulder, CO, Western Massachusetts, Connecticut, Duchess County, NY, and Staten Island, NY (the last was a fukcin' weird place, mind you). It's a big country. You can't generalize too much.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Completely but I've got an american/english friend who cant understand why certain combinations are allowed to BE and why there isnt a minimum competence before being allowed to affiliate. So "we" dont exactly bathe ourselves in glory either

Like LEC said and is frequently posted about in here you can go to any rc/bs/be and see some scary riding.

Like @paddi22 said I'd rather see the rounds that are getting picked apart on this thread than what is the norm at BS shows around here

I'd argue (despite having no proof!) that in the uk we have more/easier access to training and yet how many concurrent rounds do you see that are smooth and in a rhythm hitting every take off spot?

"Not all riders" but the most basics of foundations appear to be missing in training horses and riders.

Again no clue if true but my impression is that mainland European riders spend more time on the basics and meeting certain levels before competing and/or moving up levels. Is it france that needs people to "qualify" to compete?

Yes, France has a test, and in Germany we also have a system and test..kind of a pain in the arse but quite detailed.

 

[Palindrome]

Again no clue if true but my impression is that mainland European riders spend more time on the basics and meeting certain levels before competing and/or moving up levels. Is it france that needs people to "qualify" to compete?

You need a good level if you want to compete affiliated (7 tests which are called gallop and are similar to BHS exams) but you can compete riding club (or riding school) without having any exams.

I think there is good and bad in both UK and US style, perhaps UK style is more effective as results depend on time and US style requires a calmer and more obedient horse as results depend on style.

What I can't explain is why americans in the SouthWest think you need a Haflinger to do dressage... While there are perfectly good quarter horses, thoroughbredS or arabs (arabians) right there.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What I can't explain is why americans in the SouthWest think you need a Haflinger to do dressage... While there are perfectly good quarter horses, thoroughbredS or arabs (arabians) right there.

Really? I haven't heard this. I did recently read a discussion on a US board that suggested Halfingers as an "off breed" for dressage, but many other breeds and types were suggested too. People seem pretty open.

 

[The Problematic Hunter]

why does one rider head into jumps with absolutely zero contact? Not a light contact but washing line reins? What is the purpose of this?

Really good question! This loose of contact is not typical, I feel I should note the this rider typically doesn't ride this loose. If you look a this horse (Rodney) you'll notice that he's in hackacombo so she rides with little contact because he doesn't need it due to the refinement of the bit. Obviously when he's in the dee ring she will ride with a more closed yet light hand. Its situational.

 

[The Problematic Hunter]

I have watched hours of Equitation and Hunters. If you watch someone like Tori Colvin jump hunters and then go and jump normal showjumping classes she actually has a huge difference in style. The more traditionally correct for the Sjing classes and then the monkey up a tree look for hunters. I kind of find that fascinating and it says a lot about 'expectations'.

Equitation is much more correct in position and again loses a lot of the monkey up a tree look. Its why they then transition so successfully to the big jumping classes. You could not go round 1.40+ classes with the monkey up a tree look and it works because the horses are incredibly trained, athletic and only jumping 3'6 on the whole with the occasional 3'9 courses. Jumping 1.15m is easy peasy on a horse like that.

We do not have anything like Equitation in this class - NZ and Australia do. I also think its why the NZ and Australian eventers style is quite uniform as they normally start out in showjumping/equitation. George Morris before his crimes were finally revealed would often go to NZ but you would never find him coming to the UK because the styles are so vastly different.

I think we could do with a half way house in equitation. The Americans know distances like the back of their hand but they are also too drilled and not so good at dealing with imperfection. The UK are useless with distances at the normal RC level and have never made any effort to learn about them.

Tori is a great example of a versatile rider. You have a really good eye for noticing the difference in position! Alot has to do with the courses and judging, for hunters we have fairly simple courses consting of mostly lines set to the true step because of this we are able to ride soft and quiet in, give over the fence, then land quiet and canter on in the same motion to the next jump. Jumpers consists of much tighter lines and turns so coming into the fence you sit deeper to get them rocking back, over you give with an auto release, going away you have to get the horse back and looking for next fence. You also need to take into account that unlike equitation hunters isn't judged on the rider, so riders will ride however it takes to produce the best jump and get pined in a class. Jumpers is the same in any country. Equitation is the bridge between the two disciplines. I do really wish that all countries had equitation its a great test for riders though with the exception of the big eq diet. I personally attest to the American perfection concept. Lol. Many an hours spent on doing grids, attempting to get the perfect trott fence distance(which im convinced doesn't exist ?) , spending the entire lesson getting the add step and so forth. If your horse rushes to the fence get ready to spend the next three strictly flat or only doing crossrails. It may be boring but I personally feel that hunters has taught get the most to get the most out of my horse for the least.

 

[Palindrome]

Really? I haven't heard this. I did recently read a discussion on a US board that suggested Halfingers as an "off breed" for dressage, but many other breeds and types were suggested too. People seem pretty open.

It's a bit of a tongue in cheek comment but yes, I did take a lesson with a "dressage riding instructor" who bred haflingers for dressage, said young dressage haflinger was stiff as a plank and hadn't yet been taught how to turn so could only do straight lines . Draft types were also sought after. That was 10 years ago though so it sounds like things have moved on a bit.

 

[The Problematic Hunter]

?

I ride that way. You can see in my avatar. I've ridden 7 horses BE eventing and actually hunted about the same number, different horses and not one has turned into a dangerous maniac.

Because you likely ride eventers or do hunt paces. I a rode a working/show hunter like this i wouldn't and probably pull multiple rails. They have to work alot harder when your behind their motion to reach a textbook hunter jump especially at a slower collected canter. These horse jump with big a bascual and scope, prime example Brunello, its 10 times safer to move with the motion, release and close the hip angle, and get out of the hind ends way upon landing, than it is to drive them under the base of the jump, then having to work hard to get over it, you getting thrown way out of the tack, then being thrown forward opon landing once the hind end comes into action, slamming their mouth in back on Landing. Not to mention that the back of the saddle sits on there kidneys. Bottom line is any horse and rider can gallop flat to a 3'9 oxer and maybe clear it but it takes well-trained Horse and Rider to go up to that oxer at a slow collected consistent pace and then jump that at the perfect distance jump with Snappy Square knees with an elegant hind end and then canter away as if there was never a jump in the first place. Hunter's has a lot to teach people it teaches you to be a very soft rider you also develop a very good eye.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Wellll, that's all credibility lost.

 

[mini_b]

I know frig all really about this but I understand the fundamentals of jumping and surely you want the weight towards the back of the horse?
Ie weight over the hindquarters and approaching with a springy bouncy canter, you can still jump out of a stride and have a rhythmic canter without “driving into the base of a jump” - no ones aiming for that!

the fold in the English riding we are on about is about timing, so you aren’t thrown out of the way and you DO move perfectly within the motion.

what I have learned from this thread is it seems to be about looking nice rather than functional/effective and has sort of confirmed the thoughts I had already. Thank you for the education.

 

[Cortez]

Prob Hunter I understand your desire to explain and defend your style of riding, but it's only that and not really applicable to any other job. I used to spend quite a lot of my time picking American hj riders off the floor after hunts here (Ireland): lying up the horse's neck with your bum sticking out isn't a lot of use in trappy country.

 

[ihatework]

At the end of the day HJ is an equestrian discipline. Horses and riders in that discipline will be similar to any other discipline - ie good, bad or somewhere in between.

The good examples of HJ will be horses and riders that are well trained to produce what that particular discipline requires. That doesn’t mean they are good or better than any other discipline, just different.

Personally I can’t stand the style of riding for HJ. Which doesn’t mean other disciplines are perfect, but I appreciate the talent, skill and horsemanship of good examples of other disciplines far more than good examples of HJ. Bad horsemanship is bad irrespective of discipline.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Spoiler: I'm surprised nobody has written this, yet.

Americans ride on asses. The English ride on arses.

 

[ycbm]

Because you likely ride eventers or do hunt paces. I a rode a working/show hunter like this i wouldn't and probably pull multiple rails. They have to work alot harder when your behind their motion to reach a textbook hunter jump especially at a slower collected canter. These horse jump with big a bascual and scope, prime example Brunello, its 10 times safer to move with the motion, release and close the hip angle, and get out of the hind ends way upon landing, than it is to drive them under the base of the jump, then having to work hard to get over it, you getting thrown way out of the tack, then being thrown forward opon landing once the hind end comes into action, slamming their mouth in back on Landing. Not to mention that the back of the saddle sits on there kidneys. Bottom line is any horse and rider can gallop flat to a 3'9 oxer and maybe clear it but it takes well-trained Horse and Rider to go up to that oxer at a slow collected consistent pace and then jump that at the perfect distance jump with Snappy Square knees with an elegant hind end and then canter away as if there was never a jump in the first place. Hunter's has a lot to teach people it teaches you to be a very soft rider you also develop a very good eye.

There is just so much wrong with that, that I can't even start.
.

 

[paddi22]

Because you likely ride eventers or do hunt paces. I a rode a working/show hunter like this i wouldn't and probably pull multiple rails. They have to work alot harder when your behind their motion to reach a textbook hunter jump especially at a slower collected canter. These horse jump with big a bascual and scope, prime example Brunello, its 10 times safer to move with the motion, release and close the hip angle, and get out of the hind ends way upon landing, than it is to drive them under the base of the jump, then having to work hard to get over it, you getting thrown way out of the tack, then being thrown forward opon landing once the hind end comes into action, slamming their mouth in back on Landing. Not to mention that the back of the saddle sits on there kidneys. Bottom line is any horse and rider can gallop flat to a 3'9 oxer and maybe clear it but it takes well-trained Horse and Rider to go up to that oxer at a slow collected consistent pace and then jump that at the perfect distance jump with Snappy Square knees with an elegant hind end and then canter away as if there was never a jump in the first place. Hunter's has a lot to teach people it teaches you to be a very soft rider you also develop a very good eye.

I don't even know where to start with this... the basic laws of how horses bodies work is totally different to what you describe. compare the amount of effort a one of the Hunters has to make compared to a normal sj horse that is correctly balanced, engaging it's hind, being able to use it's shoulders properly and freely, and using optimum push.


I don't see the benefit of a riding style where a top level example of the sport is in this position three strides after landing. it's so unbalanced, if they were actually on a hunter field and the horse stumbled they would be gone over the top. the horse is totally unbalanced going into its third stride after a jump and it takes the rider about 5 strides to get it back in balance. and it was over a TINY jump.

 

[paddi22]

contrast that with a typical sj position on a horse that has a MASSIVE jump! first stride after she lands she's up and effective and helping the horse. when she's jumping she is off the saddle and the horse can use it's neck, shoulder and back freely without interference or her throwing herself anywhere or over-exaggerating her fold.

 

[Casey76]

Completely but I've got an american/english friend who cant understand why certain combinations are allowed to BE and why there isnt a minimum competence before being allowed to affiliate. So "we" dont exactly bathe ourselves in glory either

Like LEC said and is frequently posted about in here you can go to any rc/bs/be and see some scary riding.

Like @paddi22 said I'd rather see the rounds that are getting picked apart on this thread than what is the norm at BS shows around here

I'd argue (despite having no proof!) that in the uk we have more/easier access to training and yet how many concurrent rounds do you see that are smooth and in a rhythm hitting every take off spot?

"Not all riders" but the most basics of foundations appear to be missing in training horses and riders.

Again no clue if true but my impression is that mainland European riders spend more time on the basics and meeting certain levels before competing and/or moving up levels. Is it france that needs people to "qualify" to compete?

Yes, In France you have to achieve a level of competency before you can compete at certain levels.

e.g. I have a level 4 in dressage, which means I can compete in riding club classes up to about the UK equivalent of Ele/Medium; my level 3 in SJ will allow me to compete up to 80cm, but after I did my general level 3, I switched to pure dressage because I have no desire to jump at all ???

Having said that, it can often be “it’s who you know” when it comes to passing the exams (which are ridden, practical (stable management), and written).

For higher levels (equivalent of affiliated), then you will often need to place/win a certain amount of times at one level before you can move up to the next level

 

[conniegirl]

finals and medals are a minimum of 3'6" and up to 5 foot wide, so not that small

3ft6 is the height our M&M Working hunter ponies jump in qualifying classes (gets bigger at HOYS) so 14hh-14.2hh for the most part and chunky ponies not athletic 16.2hh warmbloods.