Different horses, memory, and processing

[Caol Ila]

I did a wee experiment on my horses today.

A year or so ago, both my horses were quite weirded out by flappy, ropey, drapey things around their bodies. I got one of those horsemanship flaps and did a lot of work with them, getting them used to (and not panicked by) the flag flapping about and touching them all over their bodies. At the time, Fin was less reactive to Flaggy than Hermosa was. Anyway, training and life moved on, and they haven't seen Flaggy since February, or thereabouts.

I was talking about Flaggy to some friends at the yard today and then decided to get him out.

Hermosa immediately remembered the game. Stand as still as a statue while I flop Flaggy against her neck, back, side, legs, belly, etc.

Fin acted like he had never seen Flaggy in his life. He snorted and ran to the back of his stable, then eyed Flaggy like he was black mamba.

How has Hermosa forgot nothing, while Fin forgot everything? I have decided he will have to resit groundwork 101. It might help him with some of the other issues we've been dealing with.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Mares are smarter

Maybe Fin can't trust that it's going to be the same each time. Sure I saw this thing before and I was OK with it then, but this is now, and is it still "friendly" and are the expectations still the same. As an ex-feral I'd expect him to be the more skeptical one out of the 2.

There would be the odd thing that my last horse knew, but would be wary of or concerned about if that same thing appeared in a different place or context. He was more of the skeptical type, and straight up spooky at times. Nothing dangerous or hugely dramatic, but a bit "extra" nonetheless. A smart and sensitive soul, and it also depended on whatever else he had collected in his worry basket throughout his day.

My rising 2 year old of the same breed, gives far less f*cks and remembers things differently and will hardly spook at the same thing twice. Once he's OK with something, he seems like he's rather solid with it. He learns quite fast and his recall from a session we had weeks ago is spot on.

I also don't know exactly what happened or how my last horses training was for the first 4 years of his life. He was scared and green when I got him. Idk if he would've been a bit different if I had him since a yearling like my current horse.

 

[maya2008]

In my herd, the three geldings are far spookier than the mares.

 

[Caol Ila]

If Hermosa could self-identify as a dog, she probably would.

Last week, Thursday or Friday I think, Fin started acting like he'd never seen a bridle before. This is a piece of tack he has seen six days a week for the last year and a half, and we've not had any issues with it. He darts around his stable, pulling his head away. The part he fights is when you want to bring the bridle up over his head. If you get that far, with the bit/noseband in place, he's fine for the rest of the process. Then he's fine once the thing is on. I have been riding him in a hackamore but after his first tizz about bridling, I changed to his bitted bridle, which has no poll pressure/curb action. No better. We can get it on, but it's no fun.

No f*ckin' idea what's going on. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and book an appointment to check eyes, teeth, and anything else, but acting totally feral about the bridle, when he had been fine as recently as a week ago, is weird and worrying.

 

[Cortez]

Because she’s Spanish. There’s no comparison (well, maybe Arabs).

 

[stangs]

Hermosa did the game during the major learning period of her life, so it makes sense that she'd do better at it.

But, from the sounds of it, Fin's more reactive to it than he was before which you wouldn't predict.

 

[maya2008]

. The part he fights is when you want to bring the bridle up over his head. If you get that far, with the bit/noseband in place, he's fine for the rest of the process. Then he's fine once the thing is on. I have been riding him in a hackamore but after his first tizz about bridling, I changed to his bitted bridle, which has no poll pressure/curb action. No better. We can get it on, but it's no fun.

Just in case it helps… our cob started doing that last year. At first he would let me but not my husband, then he started being funny about the headcollar if put on the same way. Had a really close look in his very furry ears and could see sores. He had ear mites. Turns out so did daughter’s pony who had been a little touchy about her ears for always but had no visible signs. No one else had them. Cleared up completely and we kept them wormed with ivermectin for a little while after to keep the things at bay.

 

[J&S]

Yes, i would suggest it has nothing to do with the bridles, per se, but with something sore around her head and ears. If not the mites, then maybe a little cut, scratch, bite, or some thing under the winter fur?

 

[Tarragon]

I think Fin's reaction to Flaggy was because he starts from a position of mistrust (high sense of self-preservation - which is a good thing) but I bet the time needed to get back to where he was back in February will be a fraction of the original time, and will get shorter each time as he gets more experience and years under his belt.
I think you might be wise to get the vet is regarding the bridle though, I cannot help here

 

[Caol Ila]

Hermosa did the game during the major learning period of her life, so it makes sense that she'd do better at it.

But, from the sounds of it, Fin's more reactive to it than he was before which you wouldn't predict.

They are probably not dissimilar to us. It's easier to learn a musical instrument or how to not spook at flappy objects as a teenager than it is as a 30-something adult.

Fin is booked in for a hot date with the vet on Tuesday. I can't find anything obvious around his poll or ears, but he sometimes moves his head away when you poke him there. Not as violently as he fights the bridle, though. I'm a little paranoid that there is something wrong with his eyes, given he is spookier about other things than he used to be, like car headlights at dusk. But he can just be a spooky, weird guy.

 

[Birker2020]

I read in one of the equine publications that a horse has to be taught or shown to do something a total of 26 times before it becomes natural for it. Apparently.

 

[stangs]

They are probably not dissimilar to us. It's easier to learn a musical instrument or how to not spook at flappy objects as a teenager than it is as a 30-something adult.

Fin is booked in for a hot date with the vet on Tuesday. I can't find anything obvious around his poll or ears, but he sometimes moves his head away when you poke him there. Not as violently as he fights the bridle, though. I'm a little paranoid that there is something wrong with his eyes, given he is spookier about other things than he used to be, like car headlights at dusk. But he can just be a spooky, weird guy.

Fingers crossed for you that the hot date comes up with a quick and easy solution.

Might be worth trying some of the Masterson method TMJ release stuff? I've heard tension in the TMJ can cause a similar head shyness.

 

[Caol Ila]

Tried to look closely in his ears today, but the lighting was iffy, he wasn't that cooperative, and his ears are very furry. Couldn't see anything. The bridle was a bit of a dance but not as bad as yesterday. Might be an ear thing. I'm still using the bit so there's no poll or nose pressure. He was very relaxed and happy on his hack.

Nothing went in his favour at crucial stages in his early his education (before I was in the picture). He was roughly at the stage Hermosa is at now, a couple rides off the lead rein, but his trainer got bucked off somethng else and could not ride for a long time. Then his owner let him sit in a field. To reback, about a year and a half later, he went to a pro yard who had a completely different approach. Trainer #1 was very positive reinforcement, clicker training, fuzzy wuzzy in her philosophy. Trainer #2 was very tough love, escalate pressure until it finally gives. Totally different. The Clinton Anderson/Pat Parelli end of natural horsemanship, rather than the Mark Rashid, Lockie Phillips end.

Hermosa is young, more resilient, and more people-pleasing, but if I stopped riding her now and then sent her to some stranger who was way more hardass than me, she would find it tough going. Little Fin is way more anxious and neurotic and, understandably, doubtful of people. Poor guy.

 

[Caol Ila]

Fin sees the vet tomorrow. Feeling very stressed because of my catastrophizing habits.

Best case: an easily fixable medical thing like an ear infection or mites. A course of antibiotics, problem solved.

Middling case: they find nothing wrong, and we muddle on through training issues.

Worst case: something degenerative and unfixable wrong with his eyes. Then what? Have to figure out his whole future.

Then all the cases in between those things.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Fin sees the vet tomorrow. Feeling very stressed because of my catastrophizing habits.

Best case: an easily fixable medical thing like an ear infection or mites. A course of antibiotics, problem solved.

Middling case: they find nothing wrong, and we muddle on through training issues.

Worst case: something degenerative and unfixable wrong with his eyes. Then what? Have to figure out his whole future.

Then all the cases in between those things.

Good luck today, I hope it goes well.

If the vet can't find anything, I too think that some bodywork might be beneficial for him. My mare can be headshy at times and it always has something to do with her holding tension in her poll - she is always much better after I or the physio do some poll release work ?

 

[Highmileagecob]

Finn seems to have a strong sense of self preservation, and he has learned to trust you not to put him in situations that he can't deal with. Then (from his point of view) you attacked him with flaggy. Obviously the bridle is now given the same label. Maybe you have reached his capacity to trust and relax, and he is never going to be an easy been there seen it all horse. Will he tolerate you sitting with him, and taking the bridle apart and back together? Is he the sort of horse who would come and stand beside you and check what you are doing, and reassure himself that you are not going to make an attempt on his life with it?

 

[Caol Ila]

The bridling issue happened first. I also walked up to his stable - not into it - and holding the flag by the flag-end so it wasn't flapping about. I showed him the flag, still holding the cloth so it would not flap, and he retreated backwards.

But you're right...he loses trust easily and a couple months ago, we had an unlucky spate of situations that freaked him out. Fireworks, idiot drivers (someone slammed on their brakes and skidded coming around a blind corner), a horse panicking in a field we were riding past. That sort of thing.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Aw poor old Finn. He does take life seriously. Maybe he has remembered New Year's Eve fireworks (which always freak our horses out as it is a sudden onslaught just as they are dozing). He must be thinking 'Oh no. No more.' Hope he can come round to a little ground work to relax him again.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I have Arab geldings they are the spookiest horses ever they look at everything ?

 

[Highmileagecob]

My Dales type is a lunatic in the stable to try and do anything with - would never be tacked up, nightmare horse for the vet/ hoof trimmer/ dentist, yet will doze off and put up with anything if tied up on the yard. Wonder if it is being out in the open that gives them a sense of security?

 

[Caol Ila]

I could try doing stuff tied in front of the stable. That's an option now. It wasn't before. The horse who used to be in the neighboring stable was a 17.3hh warmblood with no social skills, so you couldn't tie outside safely since he could reach around pretty far and make trouble for your horse. But Hermosa is in that stable now, and she is friendly and benign.

Vet found nothing obvious. She referred him to another vet in the practice, who does acupuncture. We will see what that brings. Then we'll go for a Bute trial.

He was in a state for ages after Nov 5th. People who were at the yard later than I was that evening said the idiots in the neighbouring houses were setting off fireworks.

 

[Highmileagecob]

We are on the edge of a small town, and fireworks are a major hazard. I feel your pain.

 

[Caol Ila]

I have discovered that if I undo the cheekpiece of the bridle (any bridle...bitted, bitless, whatever), and slide it on as you would a headcollar, he stands like a lamb and lowers his head, accepts the bit. Weird. Why he suddenly won't take a bridle over his head the normal way remains a mystery.

Today's hacking adventure involved a Victorian cyclist. Fin had been totally relaxed and happy, following OH leading Hermosa and a friend riding her bombproof 20-year old gelding. We got out of the park onto the steep road with a hairpin, ending up behind a cyclist pushing their bike up the hill. Fair enough. I have also pushed a bike up that road because it's f**ckin' steep. But the bike had panniers and the cyclist was wearing an ankle-length black dress instead of normal cycling lyrcra. As you do. From behind, it looked weird. I was third in the line of the horses, but Fin got panicky, even through Hermosa and the old dude weren't bothered at all. I could almost hear Fin shouting, "Guys, guys, guys, it's a monster," while Hermosa and the old gelding shrugged their shoulders and said, "Eh, the humans said it's fine." At one point, he spun around, prepared to leave the herd. "You idiots. You get eaten!"

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The annoying thing is that once back at the stable you can't point at Hermosa, and say "See Fin, she didn't get eaten, and neither did you!"

Well you can say it, but it wouldn't change anything. Hope the second veterinarian finds something fixable/can offer you some other alternative going forwards.