Difficult breaker.....any ideas? Join up?

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LouB

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Ive got a mare to break at the moment who was unhandled before she came to me. She started off very well, almost too well. We got to the point of hacking around the roads in company several times.

However.....a couple of days ago I got on as normal and she went bananas.....proper rodeo, anyway, I came off and thought I had perhaps over girthed her. So I let the girth down and lunged her quietly for a few minutes. She calmed down, I got back on, all was fine and then 15 mins later she did it again.

The next day I had some help on the ground and we started from scratch, lying over etc.

But the whole experience of me coming off her seems to have really upset her and she's become less trusting than when she first arrived. I tried to do some join up which has worked for me in the past in the hope of her trusting me a bit more. However after an hour of her cantering around my makeshift pen, dripping in sweat she didn't even hint a being submissive. I gave up, it was getting dark.

Any ideas? Should I go out tomorrow and be prepared to spend a few hours out there? She's only 4 and it didn't seem right to have her in such a state but she won't budge and wants nothing to do with me.

Any ideas?.....please?!
 
has anything changed feed or routine wise? i think you might have to go back to the beginning and lunge for a few days and maybe get back on after a week or so just do something quiet and get off and finishe then gradually build her up again. We had a really nice tb broodmare from a racing yard who seemed really easy and then she'd suddenly flip out but we found she had serious problems with her back, if she's getting really upset about things could pain be causing it?
 
No, nothing changed in her routine. Perhaps I will have to go back to square one. Its just confusing as nothing obvious triggered it. I can't feel any pain running my hands down her back. Anyway its not just when I ride her, she's very untrusting of me all together now. Thats some mares for you I suppose.
Typically this happens after I told her owner everything was going very well!
 
I would get all the relevant checks done then go back to groundwork for a while. Why don't you get someone else to sit on the mare and you walk beside her, for reassurance?
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Im having the same problem with my youngster. He was going really well then had a panic one day and started broncing and I fell off. Hes now lost all his confidence and im having to start all over again. Its frustrating but theres nothing else you can do.
 
No, im sure your right.
Its easier when they're your own, you can take all the time you need. When they're for someone else, it just puts a bit of pressure on to get the job done.
I guess owner will just have to be patient.
 
The one thing that no one ever tells you with Join up is that you possibly will never be able to free school or lunge effectivley again (depends on horses brain). I know of several cases where the horse after join up cannot do either of these and just trot round showing the "submission signs" and wanting to come to you. Is that what you could be prepared to take on?

I am not trying to cause offence as I am sure that join up is a fantastic tool if thats what you want to do and I am sure that the cowboys whom came across this method were superb horsemen - but they would never want to lunge or free school it again afterwards.

I would go for sympathetic free schooling - but please do not chase the horse round - give rewards when she does things right - if only a simple steady trot around the arena.
 
Mine had a bit of a wobbly moment a few days ago.I started giving him Bach rescue remedy half an hour before we start doing anything and it has helped. 6 - 8 drops on a piece of apple.We went back a couple of steps and now - touchwood-we are back on track.
 
Could she have come into season ? I've not got much experiance with mares etc but could that've lead to things being a bit uncomfortable?
 
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However.....a couple of days ago I got on as normal and she went bananas.....proper rodeo, anyway, I came off and thought I had perhaps over girthed her. So I let the girth down and lunged her quietly for a few minutes. She calmed down, I got back on, all was fine and then 15 mins later she did it again.

The next day I had some help on the ground and we started from scratch, lying over etc.

But the whole experience of me coming off her seems to have really upset her and she's become less trusting than when she first arrived. I tried to do some join up which has worked for me in the past in the hope of her trusting me a bit more. However after an hour of her cantering around my makeshift pen, dripping in sweat she didn't even hint a being submissive. I gave up, it was getting dark.

Any ideas? Should I go out tomorrow and be prepared to spend a few hours out there? She's only 4 and it didn't seem right to have her in such a state but she won't budge and wants nothing to do with me.

Any ideas?.....please?!

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it sounds to me like the fact you worked her for 15 minutes after coming off of her and then she did it again is her trying to tell you that she is not ready to cope with what is being asked of her. This would also explain her losing trust in you as she is probably saying that she is not mentally ready for the work just yet. I would be inclined to give her some time in the field and then start again.I would also ensure that next time you take it really slow and perhaps only work her from onboard for 5 minutes,always finishing on a good note and then slowly increase her workload once she is happy and confident that you are not going to ask more of her than she can give you.
 
Perhaps. However, she had been hacking around our road blocks for an hour at a time prior to this. She wasn't 'working', just quietly walking around the school.
 
Ye iv had this problem before, broke a gelding in, all was going very very well, very quiet to lunge and long rein, lied on his back, fine. Got on, Fine. Rode him round, fine. rode him for about 5 days straight, then one regular morning i got on and his head went between his legs and his arse came up, i fell off, he had a fright, and i was forced to start alll over again from lunging and long reining, its just something u can accidently do in under a second which can affect their confidence...its a real bugger, but theres nothing u can do but go back and start again im afraid x good luck. perhaps ul never know why she bucked again after lunging, it might be that shes found away of avoiding something she doesnt want to do, or it could have just basically frightened her, theres no telling with youngsters is there x
 
The bucking you off may have intended to be a try on, or perhaps something startled her, but I reckon you falling off her is what has terrified her.

I'd do more in hand ground work, grooming, putting boots on and off, leading her about in hand all over the place, and then stupid things like jumping up and down next to her. If she jumps away from you when doing any of this, just ignore and carry on (As long as she won't kick you!)

Then a pat and a treat, leave her to her own devices for 10mins then do it all again.

I think mares often take things really personally and then if a mistake happens, they distrust you strongly.

I'm not someone who usually believes in trial and reward(food treats) but in recent years I've found that a soft word and a treat seems to go a long way in cementing the idea that you are safe to be around!

Good luck
 
an hour for a youngster is quite a lot, hlf hour or so would be enough at that stage. We work on the premise tht if thy have done what you set out to achive in 20 mins to half hr at that age pack it in. what is the point in going on poss making problems, they dont have the strength wihc may be why she is bucking but has no pain when you run fingers down back. there is none before you start but after an hour she is thinking blimey my back is sore or her muscles ache and i have had enough.
 
Is it not possible that she has changed shape and now the saddle you are using doesn;t fit her so well? She is a baby, and will change shape on a daily/ weekly basis. Not all horse are tolerant of saddle discomfort, especially babies.
 
LouB, Every horse is differrent and some take more time than others, always be prepered to go 1 step forward and 2 back. you obviously are experienced otherwise you wouldn't be doing what you are doing, trust your own judgement, use your horsemans eye and don't feel pressured into going too fast for this mare, be firm confident but know when the mare has been pushed enough. On the join up, again use your experience don't feel you have to keep the horse going round and round sometimes leaving them for a bit to settle then trying to get them to lock on to you, works (it depends on the horse) I have found going back to ground work, and standing on the mounting block work help, also using a dummy may be an option. if you think there is any chance of discomfort get the mare checked out fully. good luck
 
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I tried to do some join up which has worked for me in the past in the hope of her trusting me a bit more. However after an hour of her cantering around my makeshift pen, dripping in sweat she didn't even hint a being submissive.

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We use join up with horses sent in for training, if it is appropiate for the horse in question, and find it to be a very usefull tool.

However, if it's going on for more than 10 mins, you are deffinatly having a communication break down! I'd suggest that with a sensitive, young horse the signals she is giving you may be very subtle, and that you might have missed them? Keeping going for an hour is a really bad idea, and has probably damaged the trust your filly had in you further
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Prehaps you might have more success focusing on the 'follow up' exercises (with your filly on a long line) and more ground work, to build your trust back up
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Another point, is that my horses still free school and long line nicely even though I've done join up with them
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Well, at least keeping it going for a hour last night tired it sufficiently to allow me to get on and potter around the yard this morning without a problem.
 
I Totally agree with air78 I do join up work and mine still loose schools, lunges and longreins very well indeed, remember join up i just one very short part of training the horse has also to respect your personal space, reverse and move sideways on request. horses can be too joined up if it is not done correctly or done alone without the other foundation work.
 
I agree with all those that have said an hour for a young horse is far to long. If she has only just been backed her back muscels are not mature enough to cope with an hour or is she mentally equiped. The horse is a herd animal it has to work with others to survive. There will always be those that buck the trend, but it is in their interest to work with you so long as they respect you are the leader. You have broken her trust in you & as with most horses let alone a mare it will take time to rebuild.

Tiring a horse out is not the answer, not when you are talking a baby especially so. If there is any possiblity that she is uncomfortable in her tack, whether it be bridle/bit or saddle then an hour of that would trigger a reaction. How this mare is handled now will affect her long term future.
 
I have my horse on a yard which offers Natural Horsemanship work, as the owner trains with the Monty Roberts School. She has done join up, long reining, desensitisation work and even breaking for several horses (including my own) and all of them lunge and loose school perfectly fine afterwards, i wouldnt worry about this in my opinion.
It may be necessary to go back to basics, or if that fails, or you feel that you are making little progress i would recommend some join up work, as it does do wonders for the difficult horse!
 
If it was me I would lunge and put up a few poles and lunge over those, and im sorry to say but get her really tired....

You will feel in a better position to work on her as you will be more in control.
 
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If it was me I would lunge and put up a few poles and lunge over those, and im sorry to say but get her really tired....

You will feel in a better position to work on her as you will be more in control.

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Yeah - and the next time you get on her without knackering her first she will BURY you!

Working youngsters into the ground is NEVER a good idea - although it can work with an older stubborn gelding.

EITHER the OP has missed a stage and the mare - while compliant at first - has now decided enough is enough - OR she has come into season and perhaps has a persistent haemorrhagic follicle (they can be quite painful!) The OP coming off has also probably created extra fear - OR a realisation that she CAN get rid of the 'predator' on her back.

Having backed a lot of mares, I find most are very easy - and a few are extremely difficult!! And if you 'abuse' the difficult ones, they will go out of their way to kill you (and working a youngster into the ground - particularly if she DOES have a pain issue - IS 'abuse'!!) If this mare IS one of the 'difficult' few, then the OP is very unlikely to get anywhere with her - these mares make up their minds and that's IT!

I would go back to the beginning - checking saddle fit very carefully! - and work slowly through the basics - working her for a maximum of 30 minutes at a time. If she is still fighting back after a week, send her to another trainer because she's NOT going to trust you again!
 
Umm i have actually broken horses all my life, im not a numpty and i am never cruel to my horses, they just learn who the leader is.

This one has the upper hand at the moment.
 
For such a sudden change in behaviour I would want a full "MOT" done to check she isn't in pain. Get vet/EDT/physio/saddle fitter etc to check teeth, "back" (whole horse) and tack.

No point repeating what others have said re length of time she's being ridden/JU and I don't think tiring out a baby without knowing the reasons for her actions is the right patht to follow...

Have you read Richard Maxwell's book from Birth to Backing? He doesn't "do" Join up as such but I'm sure you'll find lots of useful exercises for regaining her trust and building her confidence. There is also a section on using a dummy. This may be of use to you as since she spooked after you feel then having a dummy will desensitise her to having something "flopping" about and being above her eyeline. As it is clipped on it will stay on regardless of what she pulls with the aim of her accepting it and therefore a rider.

Good luck! Have a sensitive mare of my own and we're slowly working our way up to the dummy stage.
 
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