Difficult career path

RubysGold

RubysGold

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 December 2006
Messages
6,782
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
The more I learn, the more confusing dog behaviour gets.
I used to believe in the "dominant" dog theory, (as many people do)
Now I've started going to seminars to get more knowledge, and I've learnt loads, but the dominance theory got broken down and now I don't believe dogs are dominant.
But every time I say something like that, I am faced with people that do believe dogs are dominant (which is fair enough)

I suppose its just a case of, as long as it helps the dog and is a kind method, it doesn't matter which you believe? But am I going to find, when I start helping people that I spend most of my time debating what I believe. :S
That's the problem when you decide to go for an ever-changing career.

I was told that If I wait till I'm ready to start dealing with "problem" dogs, I'll be waiting forever. Mistakes will be made and I must learn from them. I think thats the best advice I've ever been given.

This has come out as a bit of a waffle, but I'm rather confused!
 
I'm with you on the dominance stuff. I believe in leadership but not dominance. After a ton of research, seminars and having it broken down to me i stepped far far away.
I have just started running a class on Wednesday nights and at the beginning we have packs that are given out with group and club information, training aids ect ect and it basically says in a nice way in there ,if you don't like it feck off.
 
I used to think I knew a lot about dogs and had some pretty fixed ideas then I acquired my male. And meeting some of the dogs I have met since, I don't think he is a particularly difficult dog, in the grand scheme of things.

Personally, if you go into dogs or dog training or the behaviourist route, saying X is ALWAYS right, Y is ALWAYS wrong, then, sorry, you wouldn't be the person I would choose to help me or my dog.

It's horses for courses, every dog is different. A lot of dogs that are labelled dominant, are nothing of the sort. Some dogs, who many members of the public will never even meet, you need to be on top of, or they will be on top of you, make no mistake.

If YOU aren't sure what you are doing and confident in your ability, you sure as hell won't be able to help anyone, or their dogs.

And personally, while I think positive reinforcement is a great way of training, if you think that no dogs EVER need compulsion, then I am sorry, but in my opinion, you are kidding yourself. There are some dogs, that you do need to be firm with. And if they spot any weakness, they will exploit that, not in a mad, 'I ARE DOMINANT, I WILL RULE ZE WORLD' way, but in a way that will make life easier for them, harder for you.

Theory is great, but honestly, have you ever met a difficult dog? One that won't listen? One that doesn't care about balls, or food, or praise, one that might come up the line at you if you speak to it the wrong way, one that goes into the red zone when it sees another dog and no amount of waving treats in front of it will work?
Could you cope with that?

Also - it's not just about the dogs, you need to teach the humans a hell of a lot as well.

This is not a criticism of you, or anyone, just my opinions. There are a lot of people out there who call themselves trainers and behaviourists, but would wet themselves if they truly came across a difficult dog - and they are the dogs that need the help the most, or else, they end up dead.
There are too many people in RL and on this forum who say they have been chucked out of dog training classes for NOTHING - just boisterous behaviour, and that isn't good enough.

You can go to as many courses and read as many books as you want, but you need hands on before you know what your capabilities, and your limits are.

BTW I am not a trainer, I do not have a lot of letters after my name, I am just a wee girl who loves dogs and has learned a lot more in the last few years because of one dog, than in the previous couple of decades.
 
It's a problem and a half! I suppose it depends on what 'dominance' theory means to you. Personally when I think of dominance theory I have images of Cesar Milan's very white teeth, and dogs 'shutting down'. I lean more towards Skinner's behaviourist theories, not because I agree completely with every aspect of it (in fact I find a lot of it very limited!) but probably because I'm from a psychology background, and we are very aware, given our subject matter, that our research must be as beyond reproach as we can make it in order for it to be worthy. And much of what I've seen to support dominance theory is not particularly well supported in research.

That said, elements of dominance theories no doubt work, in certain situations. But I would shy away from considering it the only worthwhile approach to canine behaviour. In some cases simple discipline and clarifying to a dog what is allowed/necessary and what is not would work just as well as 'the dog in dominant, and plans to take over'. all IMO of course! :D
 
Get researching, get on the field or go out with and start shadowing someone who's methods you identify with.

Where did I say that no books or courses would teach you anything?
I just personally think that hands on is the key. You need to have a confidence, a feel and a way with dogs, all dogs, not just the nice calm ones, and I don't think that books can teach that. I don't think I have that way, but every trainer I have worked with and liked, has.
 
CaveCanem said:
And personally, while I think positive reinforcement is a great way of training, if you think that no dogs EVER need compulsion, then I am sorry, but in my opinion, you are kidding yourself. There are some dogs, that you do need to be firm with. And if they spot any weakness, they will exploit that, not in a mad, 'I ARE DOMINANT, I WILL RULE ZE WORLD' way, but in a way that will make life easier for them, harder for you.
Click to expand...

Yes this is what i wish i could tell everyone!
I would class what you are saying as leadership. The dominance word gets thrown around far to much. When you watch the dominance structure in wolves you stop throwing the word around.

I agree that every dog is different and that different dogs require different methods. But i think there are defiantly methods out there which i would not be comfortable using. For example the idiot "trainer" who lives near me who thinks tying a dog by all 4 legs outside until it "submits" is the way forward.
 
Sorry, CC, I think I took that the wrong way.

I'm not someone that thinks one method helps every dog. It doesnt.
I just don't believe that dominance is a good word to use. It gives people an excuse to have a power trip in my opinion. I agree we need to be able to lead our dogs and maybe sometimes the "softly softly" approach wont ALWAYS work. But some of the techniques some trainers use to reduce dominance are downright dangerous.

Pix: Its very sad to see dogs go into learned helplessness, I've been watching video clips on youtube and other websites that show it and then they say the dog is fixed :S
 
There are disclaimers on all Cesar Milan's shows telling you not to try this at home.
He spends weeks and sometimes months with his subjects, all condensed into one show for our entertainment.
The danger there is that someone sees one hour of television and thinks they need to slam their puppy onto the ground upside down for exhibiting perfectly normal behaviour.

That's not Cesar's fault.
 
CaveCanem said:
There are disclaimers on all Cesar Milan's shows telling you not to try this at home.
He spends weeks and sometimes months with his subjects, all condensed into one show for our entertainment.
The danger there is that someone sees one hour of television and thinks they need to slam their puppy onto the ground upside down for exhibiting perfectly normal behaviour.

That's not Cesar's fault.
Click to expand...

OR as I have seen from Several people.
They come in making that damn shushing sound he does. Which isn't a problem, when Caesar does it, at the right time in the right situation. But people then decide to just do it for normal behaviour or 10 seconds too late.
 
RubysGold said:
So if thats the case, if no books or courses will teach me then how on earth am I to become a "good" trainer :S
Click to expand...

The answer, in short, is to go out and ACTUALLY do it. You will make your mistakes. We all have. You will meet up with those dogs who will get the better of you. We've all been there.

If you really want to learn, then give up your books and your courses, it can so often be a case of the blind leading the blind, and spend your time having dogs teach you. I've learnt very little from books, and just about everything from the dogs themselves.

From my limited experience, I would tell you that you need to have many dogs through your hands. Some will make a success of their first dog, and become experienced. Some, will also understand that one swallow doesn't make a summer.

Is there any particular aspect of dog work, which interest you?

Alec.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Alec
I have got experience from dogs, I own eleven dogs, and I am a dog walker. So I have learnt a lot from them. But I didn't want to be one of the many trainers that have that think they can be a good trainer just from having owned dogs all their lives.
Thats why I started on the books and courses as well. And I'm glad I did as it opened my eyes to things I never thought about.
Theres not really a particular aspect. I've done dog agility for 10 years but thats my hobby for me and my dogs, its not what I want to train.
I want to do your normal puppy/adult dog classes, plus I want to deal with "problem" dogs, behaviour work. But I can't just rush into that. I'm young, I have time to learn more first.
But I realise regardless of whether I start now or in ten years time, I will make mistakes, and there will be dogs that I can't "fix". Thats life.
 
R_G,

For every dog which you walk, for yourself and others, you will learn something. The something may well be, that you "pigeon hole" them. We all do that!! It may also be that you have challenges to your authority, thrown up, and you will LEARN how to deal with them too.

With every dog, we need a balance. We need a relationship. I have always viewed dogs as servants, with everything which that entails, including my responsibilities to them.

When you do your agility work, do you "allow" the dog to work, or are you grateful for what you get? Have you ever watched someone with a useful Tracker Dog, and observed the relationship? Have you watched Attack Work, but with no lead contact? Watch those who "allow" a dog to work. It can give us a different perspective!

With eleven dogs, then we run the risk of being "over dogged", and not doing justice to any of them. It's easily done, and I know! The dogs which you walk, providing that they are young enough, and so hopefully receptive, should be your guinea pigs! I may well have learned more from other peoples dogs, than I did from my own!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
If you really want to learn, then give up your books and your courses,
Click to expand...

That's strong advice! Hands on work requires hands on experience, but to advocate discarding all academic theory (much of which is the result of hands-on research and studies) is perhaps going to far the other way? Do you fully believe that there is nothing that say, other areas of behavioural study, cannot contribute to the welfare, behaviour and management of dogs? I would rather believe that you need both the theory AND the experience (and be able to make a critical analysis/comparison of the usefulness of both in any given situation) before you can be considered an 'expert' in such a field :)

RG- learned helplessness is indeed as sad in a dog as it is in a human (or lab rat!). Yet the 'shut down' seen in stressed animals seems to go beyond that into a physiological state. I've no specific references to hand (other than word of mouth or unsubstantiated claims etc.) that could be discussed to support or disprove my above statement so if you know of any related articles stick them up for us to have a gander :D
 
Alec Swan said:
.......it can so often be a case of the blind leading the blind, and spend your time having dogs teach you.......
Click to expand...

Pix, and the rest of the sentence?

I've read the thoughts of the good and the great, about dog psychology, and to be quite truthful, I've often walked away, scratching my head! Do you think that the winner of the Retriever Championships, or the man who won the English National Sheep Dog Trials, or perhaps the handler of the Police Dog Championships, ever got there, by way of a book? Because I don't.

I sometimes think that it is so easy to elevate dog training to the exulted position which it rarely deserves. Of course, I've watched the best, and been staggered at their abilities. But the basics, though not always, are all to often formulated and promoted around an unbalanced relationship with the dog, and one where the dog seems to have the upper hand. A position which few dogs actually enjoy, in my view!

Strong words, I realise, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, it's just that I don't agree with you!!

Alec.
 
I took an academic route for "insurance" purpose only:rolleyes: you do indeed need those letters for insurance, if all goes wrong in advice, there will be blame and that piece of paper will aid u, I have picked up some good advice through study, but I have to say none of it aided me and would never have aided me without the hands on I have acumilated in the masses through dealing with rescue dogs, it scares me when I hear of someone who has had a "behaviourist out to the house" and the advice they gave leads me to believe they have never dealt with the situation hands on, they have simply took a few pharagraphs and recited them.
You def need both IMO and you will form your own opinion and u will discard others based upon what you see, hear and read, def see if you can get into a rescue center but keep up the study.
 
Oooops, sorry Alec. I can be a little over zealous when editing quotes. Though I'd have made the same reply anyway.

I completely agree with you that hands on experience, and working with dogs yourself, can't be replaced by reading something in a book. I just don't think you should throw them away altogether. They're expensive, for a start :p And they have all sorts of ideas and opinions in them, some useless, some common sense, some interesting, some completely bizarre....

Still, I like scratching my head over a book. Others don't see any need to. Neither is wrong as far as I can see, as long as you're not relying on books to replace experience (as Cayla pointed out).

I'm not entirely sure where we disagree, other than whether to completely throw out books, but I will agree to disagree anyway :D
 
One other point re dominance and leadership - for a lot of dogs, being in that role as a leader, which they feel 'forced' to slot into because their handler is weak and ambiguous in their messages (as I used to be) it is incrediby stressful and puts a lot of pressure on the dog, it is not enjoyable for them, constantly on their toes looking for the next perceived danger or threat they have to protect their owner from.
That makes the owner nervous and fearful, a vicious cycle, and the dog develops seperate strands of what we would deem 'bad' behaviour to deal with the pressure it is under.
 
CaveCanem said:
One other point re dominance and leadership - for a lot of dogs, being in that role as a leader, which they feel 'forced' to slot into because their handler is weak and ambiguous in their messages (as I used to be) it is incrediby stressful and puts a lot of pressure on the dog, it is not enjoyable for them, constantly on their toes looking for the next perceived danger or threat they have to protect their owner from.
That makes the owner nervous and fearful, a vicious cycle, and the dog develops seperate strands of what we would deem 'bad' behaviour to deal with the pressure it is under.
Click to expand...

C_C,

you're entirely right. The trick, is to be able to recognise and evaluate the levels of stress, which we expect our dogs to either enjoy, or endure.

A first class post, of yours. Well said.

Alec.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top