Difficult Converastion with old ponies owners?

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poiuytrewq

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I'm thinking I need to broach the subject of maybe not doing another winter with the little mare I look after.

This has been kind of cemented by how incredibly well she is doing right now, I know that sounds backwards but the fact is she is a different pony in warm, dry weather and when she gets some grass (not that I have much, but more than winter)
It hits home how utterly miserable and probably in pain she is otherwise.

She always eats well and I am able to get more food into her during summer as she is in during the day. She did start picking at hay being in at night in winter but dropped off weight wise again (not as bad as when i first took her in) She gets stiff, reluctant to go out in the field at all, stands out there waiting to come in all day. Is super slow (fair enough at 38) to come in/out. She would come in after rain, even rugged shivering.

Now she has a bit of spark, she trots over yelling when i go to get her in, jogs from the field to the yard for her breakfast, Is happy to go back out later in the day. A little bit stiff but sound. Its such a huge difference to how she was that its really hit home that her winter self isnt just "old pony"

I had a bit of a fight but got her on bute last winter and boswellia but it seemed to make very little difference. She would probably be happy staying in 24/7 but not alone and my own ponies definitely woudnt be happy in all the time. They are also very un bothered by rain/cold wintery weather.

She is already on 1.5 prascend a day and her levels are good, she is tested regularly so I can't improve on that. Bute, as above didnt seem to make any difference. I think she just intensely dislkes bad weather and It seems unfair or pointless to me to subject her to another 7 months of it for no real reason.

Am i right?

If so how would you go about this converrsation? The owners, Lovely but a bit clueless and I feel like it will be especially difficult for them to understand as she is ok right now.
 
I think I would say that you are loving how well she is right now, but it has brought into focus how difficult winter is for her, the cold and lack of grass being the issues. I think I would emphasise that you want her to enjoy the summer but you don't think it fair to expect her to endure another downturn in winter.

It sounds like she is their pony still? If so, it will be their decision what to do next. They can either take your view or move her to a different location. As she sounds like she is not yours, then I don't see you have any further options, if you don't want to obersee another downturn.
 
I would be kind but firm. I watched a 42 year old pony die a horrific way because the owners refused to believe that it was best for him to go whilst he was still doing relatively ok. I would approach as Red-1 suggests, from the fairness angle and that, at her age, she is enduring winter with no guarantee that she will come out of it able to enjoy the next summer and then her final months would be those spent unhappy.
 
poiuytrewq said:
I'm thinking I need to broach the subject of maybe not doing another winter with the little mare I look after.

This has been kind of cemented by how incredibly well she is doing right now, I know that sounds backwards but the fact is she is a different pony in warm, dry weather and when she gets some grass (not that I have much, but more than winter)
It hits home how utterly miserable and probably in pain she is otherwise.

She always eats well and I am able to get more food into her during summer as she is in during the day. She did start picking at hay being in at night in winter but dropped off weight wise again (not as bad as when i first took her in) She gets stiff, reluctant to go out in the field at all, stands out there waiting to come in all day. Is super slow (fair enough at 38) to come in/out. She would come in after rain, even rugged shivering.

Now she has a bit of spark, she trots over yelling when i go to get her in, jogs from the field to the yard for her breakfast, Is happy to go back out later in the day. A little bit stiff but sound. Its such a huge difference to how she was that its really hit home that her winter self isnt just "old pony"

I had a bit of a fight but got her on bute last winter and boswellia but it seemed to make very little difference. She would probably be happy staying in 24/7 but not alone and my own ponies definitely woudnt be happy in all the time. They are also very un bothered by rain/cold wintery weather.

She is already on 1.5 prascend a day and her levels are good, she is tested regularly so I can't improve on that. Bute, as above didnt seem to make any difference. I think she just intensely dislkes bad weather and It seems unfair or pointless to me to subject her to another 7 months of it for no real reason.

Am i right?

If so how would you go about this converrsation? The owners, Lovely but a bit clueless and I feel like it will be especially difficult for them to understand as she is ok right now.
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You are 100% right. End of September about as far as tolerable, and not always that.
Our weather now is far more unpredictable, and wet, cold, dragging winters are God-awful for compromised oldies. I don’t know how you’d convince hopeless owners, but I do hope you manage it, good luck.
 
I think you should explain your concerns and make a 'red line' between you, so that you both agree that when she stops trotting over, or when she starts getting cold, it will be time.

I couldn't just PTS my old mare, despite her also hating winter. I just needed a reason and for her, the red line was if she got laminitis again. As soon as she did, albeit mildly, I had the reason I needed. I could have done it while she was happy and healthy, but I think I'd have always wondered. As it was her end was swift, she wasn't suffering and there was no deliberating.
 
She is still their pony yes. I am 99.9% certain they wouldn't move her. If it came to that, in all honestly I'd keep her here and continue to keep her warm and fed as best I can. They onle see her any more as they drive past the field. I suppose if it really came to it mine could take turns at having a day in to keep her company- I used to fence off a chunk of yard outside the stable and keep the door open so they were not shin in properly.
Agree I'd not be meaning do it now a its sweet to see her moving faster than a slow walk and with a spring in her step.
Her vet is very supportive and has always said if i needed help to call him and he would be happy to speak to them/come out and advise. He always asks my opinion on her quality of life and seems genuinly interested in her.
 
I think i would just say that its obvious she's a lot happier in summer (in fact i might start to lay it on thick now "wow arent her joints better in warm weather") but you don't think she has another happy winter ahead of her.

I find drip feeding bits sometimes works better than a big conversation when its a difficult subject.

Once I got blunt though - told someone there was no point in a discounted 2 year insurance policy when the horse shouldn't be seeing next winter. Then walked away. Still doesn't talk to me...
 
I'd just tell them how it is. I had to do this with my last companion horse. I had a frank conversation with the vet and put that to the owners. Told them that it was unfair to make her do another winter and were they happy for me to decide the timing of the inevitable. They understood and I had the final say. She went on a lovely sunny day chewing on an apple. She was 32
 
poiuytrewq said:
She is still their pony yes. I am 99.9% certain they wouldn't move her. If it came to that, in all honestly I'd keep her here and continue to keep her warm and fed as best I can. They onle see her any more as they drive past the field. I suppose if it really came to it mine could take turns at having a day in to keep her company- I used to fence off a chunk of yard outside the stable and keep the door open so they were not shin in properly.
Agree I'd not be meaning do it now a its sweet to see her moving faster than a slow walk and with a spring in her step.
Her vet is very supportive and has always said if i needed help to call him and he would be happy to speak to them/come out and advise. He always asks my opinion on her quality of life and seems genuinly interested in her.
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What a throughly decent honest person you are, and how extremely lucky A the owners of pony are and B how extremely lucky pony is…
With vets backup (presumably they know and respect vet) the approach would be made when YOU think it should be made…
I wish you good luck…and remember you have in every aspect done your best…
 
Canelloni said:
Some people would have a quiet word with the vet, have him visit before the winter misery resumes, and tell the owners that they found the pony in the field one morning ‘ peacefully passed away in the night’. Perhaps a kindness all round. Not that I am recommending this course of action….
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:oops: I almost wish someone would do that for me! I don't thik they will object but.....Wouldnt it be nice to think your horse lay down, went to sleep and didnt wake up rather than having to mke the call.


Drip feeding info would be tough as we don't really speak anymore! I say neighbours but they are about half to a mile up the road and i never see them in passing or anything. I only really get in touch if there is a problem- ie. when i wanted bute and vets occasionally last winter. We are not neighbours that pass in the morning to say hello.

They very much like the vet, however he did advise it was probably kinder to pts rather than move her on to a new place before I picked her up, I didnt realise this until i met him at a visit here. He admits he was maybe wrong but said the state she was in he thought it should be the end and was amazed at how she picked up here (funny what being fed can do) So who knows, maybe they woudnt.
 
Have they given her to you, or would they sign her over to you? I suppose a little white lie such as 'her teeth have completely failed and she is struggling to eat' might be a way round it, but it depends if the owners will go and check out the story.... Would they appreciate you being honest and telling them what you have told us? She is in pain, failing badly in winter, and perhaps it is time? All credit to you for taking her on.
 
Highmileagecob said:
Have they given her to you, or would they sign her over to you? I suppose a little white lie such as 'her teeth have completely failed and she is struggling to eat' might be a way round it, but it depends if the owners will go and check out the story.... Would they appreciate you being honest and telling them what you have told us? She is in pain, failing badly in winter, and perhaps it is time? All credit to you for taking her on.
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They know her teeth are absolutely useless, thats why she couldnt eat. She now gets buckets of mash through out the day which gets hoovered up.I can't feed her in the field if shes out in winter though so its harder to get enough into her. - she takes about 45 mins to eat so fine during the day but not feasible to stand and hold her in the field several times when the days are so short anyway.

I don't think they would give her to me but in all honesty i can't afford to do that. The amount of speedibeet and mash we get through is huge, then theres the cushings meds- which my own two ponies are also on and blood testing/vet visits. I can put the time into her but not the money unfortunately, they have the money but not the time or knowledge, so i do need their input!
 
poiuytrewq said:
:oops: I almost wish someone would do that for me! I don't thik they will object but.....Wouldnt it be nice to think your horse lay down, went to sleep and didnt wake up rather than having to mke the call.


Drip feeding info would be tough as we don't really speak anymore! I say neighbours but they are about half to a mile up the road and i never see them in passing or anything. I only really get in touch if there is a problem- ie. when i wanted bute and vets occasionally last winter. We are not neighbours that pass in the morning to say hello.

They very much like the vet, however he did advise it was probably kinder to pts rather than move her on to a new place before I picked her up, I didnt realise this until i met him at a visit here. He admits he was maybe wrong but said the state she was in he thought it should be the end and was amazed at how she picked up here (funny what being fed can do) So who knows, maybe they woudnt.
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I have never had a anything euthanised where I have been asked for proof of ownership, my long term loan horse I never informed the owner as I had full responsibility, and like I have said I have had two elderly one die whilst out on loan, one I had to phone the vet and insist it was PTS as I was paying the bills and I just didn't think it was fair to put an old pony through treatment.
I am afraid I would be very direct, either they care for it or its PTS.
 
Ok so you all know the vet, which is great. Ask them that for peace of mind please can they email/write to the vet giving you permission to PTS should you feel that's the right decision. Then you can make the call whenever you think relevant.
I've given this notification to my vets for the vast majority of my yard owners over the years. Mainly in case of emergency or if I'm away etc; but with an older horse it's sensible to have it in place as a permanent agreement; which I did for my retired horses.
I also did this with one of mine out on loan and unfortunately, they did need to use it, I was relieved my horse could be treated without delay.
 
Alibear said:
Ok so you all know the vet, which is great. Ask them that for peace of mind please can they email/write to the vet giving you permission to PTS should you feel that's the right decision. Then you can make the call whenever you think relevant.
I've given this notification to my vets for the vast majority of my yard owners over the years. Mainly in case of emergency or if I'm away etc; but with an older horse it's sensible to have it in place as a permanent agreement; which I did for my retired horses.
I also did this with one of mine out on loan and unfortunately, they did need to use it, I was relieved my horse could be treated without delay.
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I have permission to call a vet and do whatever i think is needed, with their agreement. I see this to mean if it is an emergancy I can make the decision.
ponynutz said:
I would really advise against doing anything without permission and then lying about it...
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No I absolutely woudn't dream of it. Apart from anything I don't know if they would want to be present, I doubt it but that's not a decision I'd ever take away from anyone.
 
Yes, not sure when they are back off holiday, or do I wait and see if she definitly does go down hill again, I suspect she will but part of me just thinks its nicer to not let that happen. I *could be wrong of course.
 
At lease if you sow the seeds, and have a talk around the subject, you may both come up with a workable solution and also get to know what their thoughts are. It's a horrible subject, and not made any easier when the said subject is happy and bouncy and looking ten years younger. Good luck.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Yes, not sure when they are back off holiday, or do I wait and see if she definitly does go down hill again, I suspect she will but part of me just thinks its nicer to not let that happen. I *could be wrong of course.
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Better a month too soon than a day too late for me.

Definitely have a general chat with them and see what their view of quantity over quality is like - they might surprise you.
 
Talk to vet to say this is her last summer. She's done amazingly well but it's a welfare issue to keep her over winter. At that age they should be expecting that her days are numbered. If she's doing well but still skinny she can only go downhill. Sometimes the bullet needs to be bitten so to speak.
 
I looked after a pony for someone years ago…he was a companion to my ridden horse. I had minimal contact with the owners over the years; sent a few emails with photos etc.
He colicked in the January one year, vet did an internal, didn’t feel good in there so I made the decision then and there and had him pts. I emailed the owner the following week with the sad news. They were completely understanding.
 
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