Difficult decision - literally any suggestions welcome!

[DifficultTimes]

My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.
NB Whilst I don't practice NH, I have absolutely nothing against the techniques done properly, in fact many of them are very similar to the traditional methods I use, when used by an expert. But in the hands of amateurs, they just confuse the horse.
So IMO you have 3 options
1. investigate the sacro-iliac problem thoroughly. Have you tried a bute trial?
2. Investigate whether a change of diet to a completely forage-based diet helps (if not already done)
3. PTS, whatever else happens please don't pass him on.

Thank you, I have wondered if there is some pain there but for various reasons it does come across as though it's a dominant, testing you thing. He's had 2 Bute trials and it doesn't seem to make any difference really hence my thoughts it might not be pain related.

I haven't tried a forage only diet. He is currently in full work 6 days a week and turned out for one and I leave it to the yard to feed what he requires for this but will discuss with them moving to forage only.

Don't worry, I'd never pass him on to all those that have said. I couldn't for his sake and because it would totally go against my morals, especially considering that's what happened to me. The charity option isn't a go-er as I found out they would probably (understandably) PTS anyway as there are others that are easier to rehome.

 

[DifficultTimes]

Totally different. A qualified behaviourist is someone who works alongside a vet in the same way as a physio. They specialise in working with problem behaviours, and because they work only under veterinary referral, they liaise with the vet in terms of whether behaviours observed may or may not be due to pain or illness.

They do not need to see the horse performing the problem behaviours in order to treat, but they do need to meet you, the horse, examine the horse's management, training and living conditions in detail. Basically the equine version of a human psychologist (which is what I am - my friends who went a different route post training are equine behaviourists).

If you want to PM me with an approximate location, I can most likely recommend someone near you. The key way to differentiate between someone who says they're "a behaviourist" and someone who actually is qualified is that only the qualified ones will mention veterinary referral. Just as with qualified physios and "back people"

This article explains some of it (and some of the people involved in the website are behaviourists, some are not). http://www.ebta.co.uk/faq-behaviourist.html

Thanks Brightbay, will drop you a PM

 

[DifficultTimes]

How big is he? Is he good with vets and needles? If so, the blood bank could be an option for him.

I'm assuming he has had a full lameness work up, spine xrays etc? Has he been checked for ulcers?

Someone did suggest checking for ulcers but vet said was quite invasive and at the time it was turned down as n option. He does exhibit some signs but then really doesn't in other ways.

He has had a full lameness work up and has had a full set on bone scans also with x-rays.

 

[DifficultTimes]

How big is he? Is he good with vets and needles? If so, the blood bank could be an option for him.

Sorry, missed this bit, he's 16.1hh warmblood, fine type not chunky

 

[DifficultTimes]

IMO it depends on how much more you have to spend/want to spend on the horse. If he has cleaned your bank accounts out, or you do not want to spend any more, have him PTS. If you look up Yasandcrystal (I think that's her name), she had a horse with numerous problems.

If he was my horse, the first thing I would try is an animal communicator. They are relatively cheap, about £50, and I have used two with accurate results: Ann Dee and Jackie Weaver. This could just help you identify where any problems lay.

Do you have any insurance left on the horse? If not, if you have someone local to you, TI should be able to do a whole scan of the horse from anywhere between £60 - £100. Should show up any potential problematic areas.

Yasandcrystal had used an iridologist for their horse. I have also used one before on mine - the results were interesting, but was more out of interest than for any other problem.

You can get a "bio-energetic hair test" done. People on here will probably rubbish them, but one I had done by Crossgates Bioenergetics accurately showed up problems in my horse. Never got chance to try their remedy on my horse though, so cannot comment on it's effectiveness. Crossgates is about £80, and you have the results back in a few days. There is a chap on facebook called "The Natural Medicine Man", and his hair tests are £30, but take a month for the results to come back. I have had one done out of interest for my new horse, so see if his remedy does anything!

Yasandcrystal sent her horse to Donna Blinman (or similar name) vet in Newmarket. If you are willing to spend money, this may be an option. As another poster has said, your horse could have ulcers. Has he been xrayed for kissing spine at all? Bone scan would not show up KS, unless it was "active".

Finally, the last thing to do, after veterinary checking would be to send away to Jason Webb or similar.

Wow, I really am SO clueless and so glad I posted on here. I also didn't realise bone scans wouldn't show up kissing spine unless active. Thank you for that, I think it definitely calls for a chat with the vet again about some of this stuff...wondering why it wasn't part of the discussion of possibilities before (hmmm!)

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

It really depends how much further you want to go in terms of time, love, money or heartache. My first reaction is that I'd call it a day. I assume this is your hobby and therefore it's supposed to be fun!!!

My friend and I had a series of tricky ponies last year. One a 2yo colt that turned into a aggressive virtually unhandable pony who I refused to deal with anymore after nearly getting kicked in the head. She had a NH person out who worked with him and he was then able to be gelded. IMO she spent more money than I would have done. I would have called the hunt out. The second was my son's loan pony. Her behaviour started to change and she raced at my children in the field with teeth barred. Had blood tests done and her level of cortisol was 678 (normal 29 and under) so high cushiod sufferer, she was PTS. My friend had another pony who was very nervous and we've spent a number of hours in a round pen getting her used to human touch.

It does sound like you know in your heart that it can't go on too much longer. I hope that you are able to come to a decision. You've had lots of good advice and support here.

 

[DifficultTimes]

Hi, i have not read all the posts, but just wanted to try and offer a different perspective on this.

What is he like with other horses, particularly ponies?
I am just thinking of what a few people around me have done with young horses that have got a bit too big for their boots and started biting or kicking and generally being a pain to people and other horses. The answer we have found was to find a smallish (about 12hh) native pony usually of some age but still active and mobile. My pony was used once and she was a 12hh dartmoor mare. The pony must be easily manageable but with attitude is the best way to describe them. We put just the two of them together in a field and wait. Usually the large horse tries to boss the smaller pony, but the smaller one being usually more agile and with attitude puts the horse in its place and then the pony becomes boss. However this is the important bit is you can then work with the pony and the horse sees the pony respecting you and therefore they start to respect you, along with reinforcing good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour.

Just my thoughts, might not work but since he is young it might be worth a try.

It was suggested to me to put him with a feisty broodmare a while ago, no volunteers unfortunately though. He's 'alright' with other horses so I don't think anyone would get hurt but he tends to round them up away from people (even though he's perfectly fine to catch when alone) which the yard found difficult to manage and therefore separated him. Where we are at the moment, the horses are all turned out individually so not really possible but if I can find a way of working this out we will be moving anyway so perhaps I can find a 'guinea pig' at the new yard!

 

[DifficultTimes]

OP I have been thinking about your horse all day! I notice you have had the usual checks done including X rays, but have you had a check for ulcers? Lots and lots of horses have ulcers. It is very painful and several horses have been transformed once the cause of their discomfort was found.

Thanks Orangehorse, I think I will start looking into this again, it has been suggested by a friend before so definitely worth a shot. He doesn't display all the signs but definitely matches up with some of them

 

[DifficultTimes]

^^ This exactly. My WB was a dangerous most aggressive horse until I finally got him diagnosed with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction. His SI showed NO hotspot on the bone scan as it was an old and chronic injury. I got LOU for my horse. He has been undergoing rehab for the last 18 months and he would never dream of biting or attacking me know. Not so long ago he could easily have killed me. My horse wasonly diagnosed through nerve blocking. SI problems are very painful. Has he also got ulcers from the stress?
I would be sending him to a holistic vet to get to the root cause and treat him - my holistic vet is also an osteopath and she mobilised my horse's sacrum. Agressive behaviour is NOT normal - he is in pain.

Thanks wench - she has referred to my now lovely boy Tim. Yes I used alternative therapies to diagnose my horse and my wonderful vet believed me I was so passionate about the outcomes from these - an iridology report, a shiatsu therapist session (she cried when she touched my horse) and a communication. They all said r/h upper hind injury. I got my referral to Newmarket and Sue Dyson's clinic and lo and behold he was diagnosed with his SI dyfunction r/h side. Even his hoof capsule was slightly smaller that side (grown now! he is moving better) and he plaited behind. He passed a 5 stage vetting and the vet even said he was the best horse he had passed in a long time.

Honestly my horse was that bad - I am not saying it is for everyone to follow up and get to teh bottom of a problem, but a problem I can guarantee there will be.

Do feel free to pm me I am happy to talk to you about all the things I did and help where I can.

Fab, about to run out of battery and charger is at work but will PM you tomorrow!

 

[smellsofhorse]

Please keep us updated,

We would all like to hear you have found out something from the suggestions you have been given.
Hopefully you can sort it and will have a changed horse.

If not though putting to sleep is totally understandable if you have exhausted all options.

 

[maccachic]

It was suggested to me to put him with a feisty broodmare a while ago, no volunteers unfortunately though. He's 'alright' with other horses so I don't think anyone would get hurt but he tends to round them up away from people (even though he's perfectly fine to catch when alone) which the yard found difficult to manage and therefore separated him. Where we are at the moment, the horses are all turned out individually so not really possible but if I can find a way of working this out we will be moving anyway so perhaps I can find a 'guinea pig' at the new yard!

Has he always been turned out on his own? My 2 year old (17hh) was scary kept trying to play with me - whips didn't make a difference he would rear and kick, I stuck him in with my gelding and he had someone to play with and the behavior was gone.

 

[sidewaysonacob]

PM MrsB - she was in a very similar situation to you 18 months ago. Eventually she decided that the blood bank was the right place for her troubled boy, but she explored every possibility so should be a wealth of info. If you can't find her (I think there are two MrsBs on here so it can get confusing) she set up Epona Stars on Facebook to help stop dodgy dealers so can be contacted there.

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry, missed this bit, he's 16.1hh warmblood, fine type not chunky

From all that you have said, I do firmly believe your horse is in pain. Bute trials are only useful with some types of pain. They have no effect on kissing spine, sacroiliac problems, ulcers, PSD (which can only be found with ultrasound) and a whole host of other disorders.

My boy had the worst case of KS the vet had ever seen. A bute trial had no effect. It was only found because I insisted his back was xrayed. My vet specifically said that she didn't think he had it, and he had also been checked by a chiropractor and a sports physiotherapist and it was not found. But the xray showed a major problem with the spine. Sadly, despite having an operation to remove five spinal processes, his issues with being saddled remained. He has been retired here for two years. Sadly, this winter, stabling has caused his arthritis (also in is neck and hocks) to flare up massively. He is fine when out 24/7, even without bute. But my facilities cannot support 24/7 turnout all winter. He is so bad I have a choice between sending him to the blood bank or PTS. I have had a long chat with the blood bank and have decided to send him there as he will have 24/7 TO all summer and be kept in a large free range barn with the rest of his group in the winter. I am sure that this will return him to his comfortable self. Most of the horses there are aged between 25 and 30 years old. They keep them for as long as they are having a good quality of life. If they sustain a bad injury, or old age causes their quality of life to be compromised, they are PTS on site. They are never passed on. They never leave the premises. And no one will try to ride them.

They take on horses that are 16hh or over and up to 15 years of age. They must be good with needles obviously. If the reason for your boy's behaviour is pain related, then riding him will aggravate this. It could be that his bad behaviour will disappear once he is retired and has adequate turnout.

 

[shmoo]

Hiya, It sounds like you have gone far further than most would in this situation. I have nothing really to add to the other wonderful advice you have received but to say it may be time to stop. No one will blame you for the PTS option which will in the short term hurt, but the long term bring you peace of mind. I can't agree more with all the other OP's about selling/passing him on.

You know your horse, is he a project or dangerous? Theres a wonderful woman who works for homes for horses called Joanne Wheeler, I would talk to her she can advise you wether a rehome is likely to be sucessful which may in itself make the decision for you.

Very interesting the put him in a field with a more dominant horse angle. In a similar vein my friends fathers PTP gelding was unbeaten, he was a really nasty piece of work but always won. The day he lost a race he almost collapsed. Became so depressed he refused to leave his stable for a week. It took a lot of gentle persuasion and a very soft touch to get him back. He never won again but was a much nicer easier horse to handle. So being told you aren't the boss by another horse might be a help with yours?

You aren't the only person who has or will have this kind of problem, you really aren't alone and I would support you in anything you do from here wholeheartedly based on what you've told us all.

 

[Juni141]

I would PTS. You have done everything you realistically can by this horse and it sounds like he was lucky to fall into your hands. I know it is a tough approach but there is a very valid saying about throwing good money after bad... If you aren't happy and the horse is obviously unhappy (despite the huge efforts you've made in terms of time, money and opportunities) you have to draw the line somewhere, however hard that decision is.

I had to make this decision three years ago with an eventer I had, I spent several years trying to get him right, spent large sums of money and time but in the end I made the choice that he wasn't having any quality of life, neither was I and he was dangerous to have around so I sent him to the kennels. My deciding factor was thinking about how I'd feel if I had let him go as a 'project' and he had gone on to seriously hurt someone or worse.

It is a heart wrenching decision but we as horse owners have a responsibility. At the end of the day there are 1000's of horses out there would love and deserve the opportunity to be loved and cared for by a wonderful owner like you!

Good luck whatever you decide to do xx

 

[wench]

Unless you decide to PTS; I'd honestly go with the AC first. Its cheap(ish), and easy as it doesn't involve travelling the horse anywhere. I'd also look at booking a thermal imaging person, if there is one local to you, and they don't charge too much. Max I'd pay for a scan is £100.

 

[FfionWinnie]

There's nothing wrong with putting such a horse to sleep.
You are expended a lot of money time and emotional energy on this horse , having a horse is supposed to be fun and you have certainly gone the extra miles for this one with very little pay back.

Exactly. Definitely wouldn't put the burden of him on a charity.