Difficult Pony & Disheartened Child Dilemma

chickeninabun

chickeninabun

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Sorry if this turns out really long....

I bought a 7 yo Welsh Section A mare in October for my little girls, aged 5 and 9. The 9yo does most of the riding.

The seller was very honest about the pony being a bit stubborn and will nap for the gate if you let her get away with it. We thought we could cope with this and it would teach my daughter to ride much better and it wasn't dangerous for her, better than something that bombed about everywhere.

Anyway, 5 months on and it's not improving, in fact some days it's even worse. We haven't been able to ride much over the winter, just weekends, which obviously hasn't helped. My daughter just hasn't the strength to get the pony going, and the damn pony knows it!

We have a 12 yo girl riding her a few times a week now (daughter of instructor at the yard who is giving daughter some lessons, or trying to!) and the pony will try it on a bit but she manages to keep her trotting. So on Saturday we went down so my daughter could watch the older girl ride and then have a go herself. The older girl didn't have to use her legs too much, mostly voice tbh, and got her going nicely, with not too much of a fight. So daughter gets on and you can immediately see the pony change. She just basically sticks two fingers up at you and says you can't make me! At one point she stopped, spread her legs a bit and just stood there, but it was the way she repositioned her legs as if to say I ain't moving again!

On the lunge pony is fine and I can get her walk, trot and cantering fine. Older girl can get her going. It's just tiny tots, she knows they can't make her do anything. She'll follow me to the ends of the earth if I walk or run beside her. Excellent lead rein pony but once I step away she just stops.

Daughter was in tears afterwards. Even though I said she'd tried her best. She has said she just doesn't like the pony. Which is harsh but if it's true...
Spoke to my husband (non horsey) and he has said that if she doesn't get on with this one then she's not having another, as we'll just go through the same thing again. He said he can't see how one person can make the pony go and another can't! Grrrrr!

She is a great little pony, who I know would be fab if we could just get past stubborn malarky.
Any tips?? Do we sell?? Persevere for the summer then re-assess??
I don't want to put my daughter off ponies, but I don't want her giving up without a bit of a fight. Ideas please
 
Swap for a similar looking pony and tell OH that its the original one.

Its supposed to be fun, if she isn't having fun she will just give up.
 
Can you lunge daughter on pony. Then they can concentrate and build a bond with the extra support on the ground as a starter?
 
lawa said:
Can you lunge daughter on pony. Then they can concentrate and build a bond with the extra support on the ground as a starter?
Click to expand...

We have done this, but pony can be a little unpredictable at times. I do need to crack the whip (quite literally!) sometimes to get her going, and she does occasionally buck or spin round. Not often but (and am being a soft mother here..) I don't want her getting too hurt. She has fallen off quite a few times and is fine at getting back on, but that might only last so long!
 
Would definitely stick to lunging for now rather than further dent her confidence but if it really isn't working out and they are not enjoying it then I would work on husband to change pony. Not easy I know - I can't convince my husband to get another smaller more suitable pony for my tiny children who love my 13.2 but can literally only sit on and potter about on LR and can't possibly learn to ride on him. My daughter has already lost interest and isn't bothered any more. He lives at home as a pet and isn't going anywhere so I am just hoping she comes round at again.
 
A problem with good lead rein ponies can be that they know they have to stick to their leader and stop if their leader is no longer there. So on those occasions pony may be doing exactly what it has been taught.

If older child is using mainly voice, successfully, then can you try a different tack with your children? Get them to each lead the other one but child on top is to sit there, no legs or any thing, possibly doing flexibility exercises (touch toes, touch nose, hands on head etc) while child leading is to tell pony to walk on, stop, turn right, turn left etc, transitions within the pace (walk slowly, walk on). You walk on other side of leading child and only correct pony if it's going badly wrong.

As the pony gets more used to your children directing it you walk further and further away, pony may well need lots of praise at this point to keep going as this may well be going against its training. Your aim is to end up inside a circle as though you were lunging (but with no involvement!). At some point when pony is obeying your children's voice commands start child on top using correct leg aids in conjunction with voice commands from leading child or alternate it so that child on top is telling pony and leading child what to do.
 
What is the older rider doing different?

Might be worth getting your RI to watch older rider and then watch daughter, then it’s a case of putting daughter on the lunge and teaching her to emulate the older rider’s actions.

If the problems are in the school, maybe spend the a few months hacking, just walking next to her so the pony gets some confidence. Pony sounds very much like my mare, she’s an ex-riding school pony that either refused to move or would turn tail and dump child. I’ve had her nearly two years and it took a good year for us to get the hang of schooling, we did this by NOT schooling and the only thing we ever did in the school was jump which she loves. Now when I school I do the bare minimum, as soon as she consistently trots a figure 8 in a forward going outline we call it a day, if that takes 5mins then so be it.

What about getting daughter out hacking in company?
 
jemima*askin said:
A problem with good lead rein ponies can be that they know they have to stick to their leader and stop if their leader is no longer there. So on those occasions pony may be doing exactly what it has been taught.
Click to expand...

I do like this reply. I had myself already written this which is on the same lines, I think: I am interested in children learning to ride, being put off etc.
When you refer to the older child, are you referring to the 12 year old test rider?
Or is it the 9 year old daughter who doesnt like the pony? Or the very little one?

9 year olds vary enormously in the amount of natural authority they can exercise to control a pony (and other things in life). As the granny of a rather meek 9 year old who loved riding but had no pony of her own, I suggested that the non-horsey parents arranged some lessons in Parelli style ground work, or any similar -natural horsemanship stuff. For safety sake, I wanted my 9 year old grandchild to have good control of the pony from the ground, and for me this involved far more than just grooming and learning how to pick up the feet, which is taught in sort of BHS style Stable management lessons.
Just thinking that your daughter might like the pony more if she had a sense of having control over it. Just with head collar and rope - moving forward, turning on minute cues, backing up. Leading the pony through a maze of poles laid out on the ground. There are many interesting things you can devise for children to do from the ground. You say the pony leads well for you. And my own experience, as an elderly rider, is that respect on the ground spills over into the riding. But through gradual steps, it has to be your daughter, not you. So that the pony doesnt have its eye on you but that eventually the child is out there alone, with you watching from the sidelines. The child is then doing the controlling all on her own. At least that is how I saw my grand daughter being taught ground work. And the RI remarked that the pony enjoyed it too.
As for being put off riding - another grand daughter who was put off by a poor RS lesson (BHS school) on the wrong pony, did come back and ask to ride again 2 years later. One tries to avoid these things, but with the best will in the world they sometimes happen.
 
jemima*askin said:
A problem with good lead rein ponies can be that they know they have to stick to their leader and stop if their leader is no longer there. So on those occasions pony may be doing exactly what it has been taught.

If older child is using mainly voice, successfully, then can you try a different tack with your children? Get them to each lead the other one but child on top is to sit there, no legs or any thing, possibly doing flexibility exercises (touch toes, touch nose, hands on head etc) while child leading is to tell pony to walk on, stop, turn right, turn left etc, transitions within the pace (walk slowly, walk on). You walk on other side of leading child and only correct pony if it's going badly wrong.

As the pony gets more used to your children directing it you walk further and further away, pony may well need lots of praise at this point to keep going as this may well be going against its training. Your aim is to end up inside a circle as though you were lunging (but with no involvement!). At some point when pony is obeying your children's voice commands start child on top using correct leg aids in conjunction with voice commands from leading child or alternate it so that child on top is telling pony and leading child what to do.
Click to expand...

I like this idea, although fear it might take a long time before we can get away from walking at the side of her, but a good way to cement the voice controls.
 
Dizzle said:
What is the older rider doing different?

Might be worth getting your RI to watch older rider and then watch daughter, then it’s a case of putting daughter on the lunge and teaching her to emulate the older rider’s actions.

If the problems are in the school, maybe spend the a few months hacking, just walking next to her so the pony gets some confidence. Pony sounds very much like my mare, she’s an ex-riding school pony that either refused to move or would turn tail and dump child. I’ve had her nearly two years and it took a good year for us to get the hang of schooling, we did this by NOT schooling and the only thing we ever did in the school was jump which she loves. Now when I school I do the bare minimum, as soon as she consistently trots a figure 8 in a forward going outline we call it a day, if that takes 5mins then so be it.

What about getting daughter out hacking in company?
Click to expand...

I couldn't honestly tell you what they are doing different. The older child does not kick very much at all, and she isn't the most confident or experienced of riders either. She does use her voice nicely, encouraging the pony and clicking. My daughter needs to practise clicking louder!

The pony is pretty good hacking. She will go out with another horse or with someone walking. I presume she would go out fine on her own but obviously we can't do that with a small child on board. She will try and turn round after a while but she doesn't whip round or do anything dangerous.
 
oohhh I feel your pain. When my 8/9 yr old started riding we didnt quite have the right pony to start on (a cheeky Welsh A mare that had gate issues too as it happens!). We sort of cracked it by a combination of long lead ropes, side reins - ours would just bend neck round keep walking - following other horses, building leg strength and confidence on hacks, keeping the work in the school interesting rather than round and round in circles and pure determination on daughters part. We made a point of never walking back to gate and dismouting and finishing, always dismounting at the other end, never having people by the gate, working at other end to gate sometimes worked. Sometimes we worked on small circles very near the gate. I do kinda wish I had bit the bullet and sold her on earlier as it did put my daughter off - she felt the pony didnt like her and she hated having to get cross with her. Sometimes little legs and arms arent strong enough to pitch against a pony but you can improve it with patience and being clever and having a sheer bit of bl**dy mindedness. Also my OH was much the same but I told him whats the point of paying out for a pony that doesnt get used because the children wont ride it when we could find another and actually enjoy it. Good luck - it so hard being the mum of a horsey child!
 
Skib said:
I do like this reply. I had myself already written this which is on the same lines, I think: I am interested in children learning to ride, being put off etc.
When you refer to the older child, are you referring to the 12 year old test rider?
Or is it the 9 year old daughter who doesnt like the pony? Or the very little one?

9 year olds vary enormously in the amount of natural authority they can exercise to control a pony (and other things in life). As the granny of a rather meek 9 year old who loved riding but had no pony of her own, I suggested that the non-horsey parents arranged some lessons in Parelli style ground work, or any similar -natural horsemanship stuff. For safety sake, I wanted my 9 year old grandchild to have good control of the pony from the ground, and for me this involved far more than just grooming and learning how to pick up the feet, which is taught in sort of BHS style Stable management lessons.
Just thinking that your daughter might like the pony more if she had a sense of having control over it. Just with head collar and rope - moving forward, turning on minute cues, backing up. Leading the pony through a maze of poles laid out on the ground. There are many interesting things you can devise for children to do from the ground. You say the pony leads well for you. And my own experience, as an elderly rider, is that respect on the ground spills over into the riding. But through gradual steps, it has to be your daughter, not you. So that the pony doesnt have its eye on you but that eventually the child is out there alone, with you watching from the sidelines. The child is then doing the controlling all on her own. At least that is how I saw my grand daughter being taught ground work. And the RI remarked that the pony enjoyed it too.
As for being put off riding - another grand daughter who was put off by a poor RS lesson (BHS school) on the wrong pony, did come back and ask to ride again 2 years later. One tries to avoid these things, but with the best will in the world they sometimes happen.
Click to expand...

The "older child" is the 12yo test rider. It is my 9yo daughter that has openly now said she doesn't like the pony and she has said she wouldn't be sad if she got sold :(.
I love love love the idea of the ground work lessons. I think that would improve her confidence no end! I can lead the pony ok but for the little ones she tends to pull them to the grass and then they can't get her to move after that! She's just a proper little ***** really!!
I will go and look up some natural horsemanship intructors in my area. I really like this idea, a lot!
 
Jericho said:
oohhh I feel your pain. When my 8/9 yr old started riding we didnt quite have the right pony to start on (a cheeky Welsh A mare that had gate issues too as it happens!). We sort of cracked it by a combination of long lead ropes, side reins - ours would just bend neck round keep walking - following other horses, building leg strength and confidence on hacks, keeping the work in the school interesting rather than round and round in circles and pure determination on daughters part. We made a point of never walking back to gate and dismouting and finishing, always dismounting at the other end, never having people by the gate, working at other end to gate sometimes worked. Sometimes we worked on small circles very near the gate. I do kinda wish I had bit the bullet and sold her on earlier as it did put my daughter off - she felt the pony didnt like her and she hated having to get cross with her. Sometimes little legs and arms arent strong enough to pitch against a pony but you can improve it with patience and being clever and having a sheer bit of bl**dy mindedness. Also my OH was much the same but I told him whats the point of paying out for a pony that doesnt get used because the children wont ride it when we could find another and actually enjoy it. Good luck - it so hard being the mum of a horsey child!
Click to expand...

You sound like my double!!! I'm glad it worked out in the end, but I will take heed of your part where you say you wish you had sold her earlier on. I think we will try a few more avenues and if she's still being a god damn pain in the a$$ then we might look for something more suitable. She's only being with us for 5 months, which isn't long.
 
chickeninabun said:
I like this idea, although fear it might take a long time before we can get away from walking at the side of her, but a good way to cement the voice controls.
Click to expand...

I think you may be surprised. If the older child can ride her without a walker she almost certainly knows that job as well, she just needs to be convinced that she's being a good girl when she has no-one walking with her. I've had to go through this twice with my own lovely lead rein pony, first with my daughter - pony was perfect lead from the ground or from another horse but would stop dead if there was no leader - and then again with a child loaner. Each time once she was convinced that she was being a good girl she was happy to be a first ridden (although the napping back to the gate happened with the child loaner).
 
sounds like a2nd pony when you need a first, can you loan her out for the summer to a slightly older child maybe linked to pony club to get her going off on her own, and look for a first pony to loan for a year
 
jemima*askin said:
I think you may be surprised. If the older child can ride her without a walker she almost certainly knows that job as well, she just needs to be convinced that she's being a good girl when she has no-one walking with her. I've had to go through this twice with my own lovely lead rein pony, first with my daughter - pony was perfect lead from the ground or from another horse but would stop dead if there was no leader - and then again with a child loaner. Each time once she was convinced that she was being a good girl she was happy to be a first ridden (although the napping back to the gate happened with the child loaner).
Click to expand...

That sounds positive. Thanks, has made me feel there is hope.
 
twiggy2 said:
sounds like a2nd pony when you need a first, can you loan her out for the summer to a slightly older child maybe linked to pony club to get her going off on her own, and look for a first pony to loan for a year
Click to expand...

Yes it certainly feels that way. It is something to think about. I just don't want to feel I am giving up on her. I have thought about sending her away to be re-schooled but she would probably end up being ridden by an adult and come back with the same problem. She just knows there's a small person on her back!!
 
Is there any difference between the 9yo and 12yo in terms of their position and rein contact?

It could be a confidence thing for your daughter - maybe with a leader she's more relaxed through her seat/hands because she knows pony will behave, but tenses up and unconsciously asks pony to stop when by herself?
 
Does your daughter carry a stick to ride with? A swift tap when pony begins to nap might help your daughter ride her forwards past it, maybe combined with a firm 'trot on' as pony seems to respond well to voice commands. It might help make pony listen and take notice of daughter a bit better, instead of daughter having to nag with her legs and potentially be ignored. I'm in no way suggesting daughter relies on a stick, just that it might be a useful aid to help her gain some confidence back.
 
Speak to hubby again ! Explain that ponies are like people, some like to please and some don't and unfortunately you have got the latter. Sell the pony and then try asking at the local PC to see if there are any of the former around that are either coming up for sale or are up for loan.

Loaning ponies is definitely best, as making a child persevere with a pony they don't get on with is a sure fire way to put them off, also loaning means you can make it clear to the child at the beginning that it isn't theirs and then you can avoid having a field full of expensive ornaments that they can't bear to part with !
 
smja said:
Is there any difference between the 9yo and 12yo in terms of their position and rein contact?

It could be a confidence thing for your daughter - maybe with a leader she's more relaxed through her seat/hands because she knows pony will behave, but tenses up and unconsciously asks pony to stop when by herself?
Click to expand...

This could be a problem. I often tell her to give more with her hands, as she does tend to tense her hands whilst kicking. It could well be that she tenses up when I'm not there without even knowing it. Good point. Will look closely into this one.
 
atropa said:
Does your daughter carry a stick to ride with? A swift tap when pony begins to nap might help your daughter ride her forwards past it, maybe combined with a firm 'trot on' as pony seems to respond well to voice commands. It might help make pony listen and take notice of daughter a bit better, instead of daughter having to nag with her legs and potentially be ignored. I'm in no way suggesting daughter relies on a stick, just that it might be a useful aid to help her gain some confidence back.
Click to expand...

She has had a stick, but pony only really responds with a buck. Which is not a big buck, just a "give up" type hump, but when daughter got given three in a row the other week, she was gracefully dumped!! So I have taken the stick off her for the time being.
 
Lizzie66 said:
Speak to hubby again ! Explain that ponies are like people, some like to please and some don't and unfortunately you have got the latter. Sell the pony and then try asking at the local PC to see if there are any of the former around that are either coming up for sale or are up for loan.

Loaning ponies is definitely best, as making a child persevere with a pony they don't get on with is a sure fire way to put them off, also loaning means you can make it clear to the child at the beginning that it isn't theirs and then you can avoid having a field full of expensive ornaments that they can't bear to part with !
Click to expand...

Will try!! I am really worried about her being put off for life! Although it would be cheaper for us!!

I think I am going to try a few things suggested here and if we're still not getting anywhere then she will have to go to someone who can enjoy her. Another problem is that if it takes two years to get that bond, not only will daughter have lost the will to live, but will also have outgrown pony, as she's only 11.2hh!!
 
Tell your husband if he values his daughters confidence and happiness then he will agree to sell the pony and get another.Wait a few weeks/months and up the budget and look for something with no issues.Take instructor with you when you go to try.Its a fallacy that children need ponies that buck,bolt rear etc. because that's the only way they will learn.All they learn is to loose confidence which is what has happened to your daughter.She expects defeat now so that's what she gets.A few weeks back at riding school having a laugh might help her a bit as well.
 
First and foremost search Redmone on here and go back and read all her early posts. Her daughters pony Dolly was VERY testing at first and her post was something similar to yours. Dolly is now the apple of their eye, has daughter mini Redmone more than anything and she had now moved up to a 14.2 pony that she rides beautifully. After you've read the posts...pm Redmone...I am sure she won't mind me saying but if anyone understands how you're feeling she will and I think she could probably write a book on the trials and tribulations of opinionated first ponies.

I would be wary of Natural Horsemanship/Parelli type handling lessons. A good instructor with common sense and empathy for both your daughter and the pony will be far better & probably cheaper. While I appreciate that for a small child it is difficult, it's not easy for ponies sometimes either. They have feelings/reactions too and like us all will test the boundaries. Changing pony will not necessarily get rid of the problem it could just transfer it. It is unrealistic to expect the pony to be an angel for a small child. Good behaviour in all species (humans included) is re taught/reinforced EVERY day through dealings & relationships.
 
Another way of looking at things? Who deals with the pony on a day to day basis? If your child does more with her on the ground they could build more of a bond that will transmit to the saddle... Does she bring her in from the field, muck out with the pony in the stable (so she has to move her round the stable to muck out), feed her, groom her, tack her up. If your daughter builds more of a bond on the ground the pony might respect her more :)
 
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