Dilemma with DIY livery

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Ilovelucy

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I run a small DIY livery (12 Horses, including my own), and have done for around 20 years, with no huge problems.10 years ago, a 'resting' actress came to us(i.e not much money, often between jobs), with initially 2 horses (now 3).Over the last few years she has become increasingly depressed, so much so that she finds it difficult to deal with her animals, or even get out of bed. She has told me that the only time she is happy, is when she is with them. Twice I have been on the edge of calling welfare groups, as she has not appeared for months, then we have 6 months of her being the perfect owner. Other liveries are reluctant to help her anymore, as they all feel used, as she will swan off on holiday when she is well, and STILL require help, without paying back. I do actually believe that the horses keep her on a more even keel, and that she IS acutely depressed, and if she wasn't so broke, I would suggest she find full livery somewhere else. She has no family in this area to my knowledge. What to do? that is the question..my daughter go's to UNI this year, and my free help will have gone, so I have to make a decision now! I really don't want to tip her over the edge. Sorry to whinge in my first post, but I have found this site so helpful in the past!
 
Difficult one - but this is your business at the end if the day. Could you offer her some sort if assisted DIY package to suit you both with payment in advance just in case?
Would be wise to sort out this side of winter though!
 
Difficult one. Sounds like you feel sorry for her and want to help her but it's getting increasingly difficult when you don't actually offer additional livery services and your free help (other liveries and daughter) are no longer able to help. Have you spoken to her about it? Does she realise the resentment she has caused by not returning favours when she is well?
Maybe suggest she gets a sharer who can help out with at least one of them and maybe provide some cover for all 3 when she's going through bad patch? Are the horses in or out?
 
OP, I really don't know what to suggest re the depression as it's up to her what she chooses to do at the end of the day, but realistically if she cut back to one horse and kept it on full livery she would still have that lifeline (yes shes broke, but if she's managing to pay for 3 on DIY?) and no need to worry about putting on other people if she is unable to function properly for months at a time.
Ultimately she will do as she likes with her horses and how many she wants to keep, but you have to think of yourself as well, there are other places she could go I imagine...
 
Like you say the horses probably keep on her an even keel - the problem is when she is depressed she doesn't feel able to face the world and get to see her horses, but when she does get over that she enjoys the time with them.

Why not suggest to her that she finds sharers for her horses or find someone to loan them (but keeping them at your yard so she can still see them when she wants to) - doing this would a) bring her some extra income in and b) ensure someone is seeing the horses and caring for them on a regular basis - a win for her and a win for the horses.

You may have to be a bit tactful about how you approach her with such an idea, but you could just say "someone was asking me the other day if I knew of any horses for share and I said no but it occurred to me afterwards whether you'd consider having a sharer for yours" type of thing.
 
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It's difficult for you because you will have an conncection to the horses as you have had them a long time.
You either tell her there's no more free help say it and mean it .
Prepare a list of what to charge give her a copy and stick to it.
Or tell her your daughter has moved out her liverys are too labour intensive and serve her notice .
 
Amymay,I think the welfare issue was more of nobody 'officially' looking after them (abandonment?)We bought feed, and they were trimmed, but the farrier bill was paid late, and he was not best pleased either. At times they have looked not so good, but not quite at the stage you would call neglect, as one of us always steps in.
AshTay...never thought of a sharer! I want to suggest things when she is in a receptive mood (today is that day!) Thankyou!
And Capriole..She should get rid of at least one of them, but even with only one, she would be paying out considerably more!Any talk of price increases and there is talk (and I am sure it IS only talk) of having them PTS....She is quite dramatic! Thank you all...I was beginning not to see the wood for the tree. Will talk about a sharer!
 
I would just be upfront with her, as people have said. Tell her the situation has changed for you and offer to cover the times she isn't there for x amount of money. Or, tell her the situation has changed and you aren't able to provide DIY livery any more. It might be good policy to put it in writing for all your liveries and then she wouldn't feel singled out and your liveries wouldn't feel there wasn't a plan to deal with the situation.
 
Tell her she has to look after her horses, get a sharer or you will ask her to leave, or if you are happy to do the work, give her a list of charges for each thing that you do and charge her for it. I understand your worries about her mental health but (as a doctor who deals with mental health on a daily basis) you are not assisting her mental health by letting her shirk her responsibilities. Making her have a routine and a reason to get up will actually help her (whether she believes it or not). You are not her doctor, nor are you responsible for her and by letting her get away with this you may even be making her mental health worse.
This sounds very harsh but if you want something to change in this relationship you are going to have to change it - the softly , softly do it when you want approach hasn't worked for the last x years and so it isn't going to work in the future.
 
Capriole said:
Don't you think not turning up for months when you are on DIY livery warrants calling welfare?
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No. Because duty of care lies with the op as well as the owner. And it's incumbent on the op to ensure the welfare and care of each animal on her yard (whether they are pwned by her or not).
 
amymay said:
No. Because duty of care lies with the op as well as the owner. And it's incumbent on the op to ensure the welfare and care of each animal on her yard (whether they are pwned by her or not).
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wow, obviously very different opinions of what's acceptable, then.
 
Ilovelucy said:
And Capriole..She should get rid of at least one of them, but even with only one, she would be paying out considerably more!!
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I am surprised!

I know that when I add up the costs of 3 on DIY, stable plus bedding and forage, feed, shoeing etc., one on full livery is very achievable.
 
DIY livery owners do call welfare organisations and they do attend and assist .
The livery owner only has to provide miminal care not what we would consider good care .
Most livery owners simply serve notice on such people and get them of the yard.
 
Food for thought, Amymay,Think I will look in to that further...I sort of understood that to be if a horse was injured or ill, or was not being cared for properly, that you had a duty to do something, like report, or call a vet. (rather like child abuse, I suppose), rather than take full responsibility long term.
 
You need to sit down with her and discuss this. At the end of the day, this is your business, and she is not playing ball. Even when I am in the depths of depression, I get out of bed to sort my pony. OR I make arrangements to pay someone, yes pay someone to do it for me.

Do not fall for the sympathy card - if you **** your other liveries off by pandering to this woman, they may well leave.
 
Ilovelucy said:
Food for thought, Amymay,Think I will look in to that further...I sort of understood that to be if a horse was injured or ill, or was not being cared for properly, that you had a duty to do something, like report, or call a vet. (rather like child abuse, I suppose), rather than take full responsibility long term.
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Well it's pretty obvious really. You can still serve an abandonment notice on though. Although as they haven't been abandoned it doesn't count in this situation.
 
R
Ilovelucy said:
Food for thought, Amymay,Think I will look in to that further...I sort of understood that to be if a horse was injured or ill, or was not being cared for properly, that you had a duty to do something, like report, or call a vet. (rather like child abuse, I suppose), rather than take full responsibility long term.
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You don't need to take responsibility long term you can serve notice .
As a YO you must ensure that a minimum standard of care is given which you have been doing .
I have seen yards where YOers have ended really struggling because they are feeding the horses of bad liverys , most of the YOers I know have a zero tolerance approach and serve notice and move the problem on .
 
OP you sound really lovely. I think the idea of suggesting loaners or sharers is a really good one and if you can get her to go for it that would be great. I suppose she might be quite difficult to share with though? Otherwise I second trying to persuade her to cut back one and then offering her assisted livery.

I would say just boot her off but I think you are probably far too nice to do that. Best of luck :)
 
You come accross as a really nice YO who obviously cares a great deal about both your client and their horses. If you didn't you would have kicked them off yonks ago!!

That said, you do have to keep in mind you are a business and not a charity. Mental Illness or not, your client does have responsibilities to face up too.

I can completely see the dilemma you are facing. It may be worth calling a mental health carity helpline to get some impartial advise about how best to approach the situation with the client.

3 horses is a lot - are they 'useful' horses or are they old/lame ones? If useful, sharing is most definitely a good option to suggest. If old/lame, then although it may not be what you choose for your horse, if your client is talking PTS that is not necessarily a complete no-no given the situation.
 
Just to point out about the abandonment issue, I was chatting to an SSPCA inspector not long ago about a case where a livery yard had a horse where the owner had stopped paying livery, and disappeared. They couldn't get in contact with them, and phoned up claiming abandonment. However, like many full livery yards, there was a clause in the contract that said if livery wasn't paid by a certain time, that the horse would become the property of the YO. Therefore he didn't have a leg to stand on, and was told the horse was his and he had to look after it - whether he sold it or not was his call but the SSPCA couldn't treat it as abandonment. So check your contracts etc!
 
khalswitz said:
Just to point out about the abandonment issue, I was chatting to an SSPCA inspector not long ago about a case where a livery yard had a horse where the owner had stopped paying livery, and disappeared. They couldn't get in contact with them, and phoned up claiming abandonment. However, like many full livery yards, there was a clause in the contract that said if livery wasn't paid by a certain time, that the horse would become the property of the YO. Therefore he didn't have a leg to stand on, and was told the horse was his and he had to look after it - whether he sold it or not was his call but the SSPCA couldn't treat it as abandonment. So check your contracts etc!
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yep: my old yard had a lady who, i couldn't diagnose her! but basically she was all or nothing, would turn up and want to go out to a show, on a horse she had left in a field for a month (we would all check the horse was ok, it had water and grass) she then returned that and bought a new feisty tb all with in a week! put him on full livery and then after a few months did not tun up for 5 months!!! YO would phone and be told she was in Europe, all sorts of strange excuses. ended up getting lawyers involved to get 5 months of livery fees, which she suddenly produced and acted like there was no big deal! horse luckily went on loan to great home, but a year later she wanted it back and god knows where poor thing is now. But yes in the contract it said if fees aren't pad it would be YO's horse to sell, but this horse would no where near pay the bill of 5 months full livery, so she was very glad to finally get paid.
 
but in relation to this lady, i think you have given her sympathy for too long, just because she suffers from lows she has a responsibility to look after her horses. if she can't she has to pay you. i think you are far too nice and have to make her realize this is a business. many people have 'problems' but however hard it is they are still up every day doing their horses.
 
If the sharer option doesn't work, is there any merit in telling her that she must take responsibility for the horses as you can't any more now that your daughter's gone to uni, and if it doesn't happen, trying to gently persuade her to come to see the horses when she doesn't turn up - i.e. phoning her the first day she doesn't turn up and telling her they need feeding / checking etc. She's obviously got used to you always carrying the can so this might be a good way of keeping an eye but making her realise they are her responsibility. I appreciate it must be difficult to get on the case of someone when they're not well (and she may not respond anyway) but it might give her the impetus to get out of bed, which in turn might speed up her recovery? It will be a bit of extra hassle for you to begin with but it might improve things long term?

Best of luck with it, it's not an easy situation.
 
I'd start of by sending all liveries a letter, outlining that they are required to see to there horse and a list of charges if they want you to do services. Then stick to it.
If she can have 3 horses she needs to either do them or pay someone to. Harsh but true. If it is to much she needs to look at alternatives.
 
OP I really feel for you, it is difficult to know what to advise, but thankfully other people have, I think annagain's post is particularly good!

We had someone kind of similar to this on our yard for a short while, (I'm not YO, just a livery) The horse was turned out with mine so I felt responsible for keeping an eye on him. That went well until he was injured, his "owner" (turned out he was only on loan to her) was having a family crisis over the bank holiday weekend and then straightaway went on holiday for 3 weeks. Between us the other liveries and I managed the vets, meds, injury treatment etc during this time and it was looking ok by time she returned, but she didn't keep it up.

Then one day she just disappeared with horse, I worried for him and hope that she took him somewhere where someone consistent could keep an eye on things. But I was also relieved, I was so worried what would happen to him come the winter when the pressure was on and a lot more work required.

The bank holiday family crisis wasn't the only thing that happened, It could be that she did just have a run of incredibly bad luck that kept her from the horse for days at a time, or she really did come up at 5am to ride/care for him every day (which was what she said) or she could have been lying, it didn't really matter to the horse, and that is the trap that we fall into because even if the person was a liar and taking liberties, the horse still needed attention.

I am not generally an interferer or busy body, I have enough to do with my own but I found it hard to just sit by and do nothing when the horse needed help, whatever I though of their owner.
 
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well...we have had a long chat today, with the 'agreement' that she is going to look at options for when my daughter go's to Uni at the end of September. She really does love and care for the horses when she is here, but that is not enough. She has said that she would be better on her own away from people, so wanted to look for a field to rent. I pointed out that it may be difficult when she is ill etc,but this seems her preferred option. We looked at local stables, which actually wasn't so bad in price when it all added up and there MAY be a chance that if the 2 ponies are ok, they could be used in the school to offset costs, but she isn't keen on other people riding. The sports horse really needs restarting, I think .I also got her the number of a local 'horse sitting' person, with her price list, if she would like to stay here. I feel a bit of a cow, but strangely relieved. She is on the up at the mo, as she has a small job coming up, too.
On the other side, I'm redoing contracts etc, and rules, so this doesn't creep up on me again!
 
Good for you Ilovelucy! It sounds like you handled that very well, having a contract/clear rules is also going to hopefully prevent something like this from happening again. I can imagine you do feel bad because you seem like a kind person, and you are a lot more tolerant than many YO/YMs would have been, so imo you have absolutely no reason to feel that way.

I completely agree that she shouldn't keep the horses in a field where they would be soley reliant on her, but I guess that is her choice to make, it might actually wake her up to her responsibilities.
 
just got to keep on top of it now, skint1, and make sure we keep to it....that, I fear will be my difficulty, but as you say, the new rules will be applied to everyone, so it should make it easier!
 
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