Dilemma .....

[Dougal9]

Hi

I posted on here a while ago about my riding school horse that I was/still am hoping to buy. However, for the last few weeks I haven't been able to ride him as he had already been worked. I have been riding another horse instead, who is a real sweetie with and with a bit more spark than the other one, we are getting on really well and I did my first jump on her yesterday which was brilliant !! However, she is around 19 years old - is this too old for a first horse (having said that I am 54 so we are probably on a level par !!). She is livelier, and dare I say it has a bit more about her than Dougal on the character front. Would her age cause a problem getting insurance.....! I am in a quandry, I didn't expect to like and get on so well with another horse other than Dougal (I have ridden others but none that I got on well with) - what am I going to do ?? My riding instructor said either of them would be good for me, so not much help really..... Do you think the RS have done this to 'test' my commitment - having said that I've already secured a stable in a 5* yard on 7 day livery, so I am committed to having my own horse.

I am finding it difficult to take the emotion out of it all - but then I am like that where animals are concerned (don't have the same issue with humans though - hahaha )

Any thoughts, ideas would be very welcome here

 

[Shay]

You don't say what build the older horse is - but in general terms 19 isn't too old for a horse. However you will be its last owner. Only you know if that is an issue for you or not?

Horses - as a really rough generalization - live about 25ish years and, depending on discipline etc, remain rideable for most of that time. The last 4 - 5 years or so, depending on other health concerns, they will be retired to a field if you can support that financially and they are the right temperament for it. Otherwise - sadly but responsibly - PTS. Ponies and hardy native type horses live much longer - 30+ years and stay rideable for more of it. Bear in mind this is a really broad generalization and young horses become unrideable, old horses stay rideable for longer etc. But you are absolutely right to be thinking about what happens as they age.

You can't in practical terms get insurance for anything over 15. You can get it, of course, but it is expensive and has so many limitations on it that it isn't really worth the money. You need third party liability insurance which you get with things like BHS gold membership, or donations to World Horse Welfare. but you will have to budget for your own vets fees. Personally I put the sum aside that I would have spent on insurance and effectively self insure. So far I'm on top - but it is a gamble.

What you don't want - I would have thought - is a young horse (as in under about 7). You need the experienced and maturity of a schoolmaster type. Whether you want the mare, or Dougal, or something else depends on what you want to do with them. If you are thinking along the lines of something to start with that you expect to have fun with for a while but then sell on to get a horse the next level up then a 19yr old isn't the best choice. By the time you want to sell on it will be 22/23+ and all but impossible to sell. However if you are thinking more of a companion for the rest of its life and don't mind overmuch what you do with it then a 19yr old is absolutely fine (and before you panic you'll get a good 5 - 6 years if not more as long as it is sound etc.)

I know it sounds really rough and a bit mercenary - but it is also absolutely the responsible thing to think about. These are expensive creatures and we need to consider what we are really going to do with them if / when they no longer suit. Most of us can't afford to keep an string of oldies / outgrown ones. (Speaks the mother of a teen still keeping many of the ponies...)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You certainly can get veteran insurance, but it will be slightly different to a younger horse policy so do your research to get the best one available. The right horse is the one that gives you confidence and is suitable for your needs, so as long as he/she is sound and healthy, age isn't everything.

Have you only ever ridden these horses in the school? If you will want to hack out once you own them, the seller/RS should let you hack them before deciding. Do bear in mind that with less work and moving to a new yard, they could be a bit more difficult than they are in the school environment at least to start with. Will you have experienced help and support once you buy the horse? It could be a good idea to book some lessons (for after the purchase date) on your new horse to help you.

So really you want to buy the one that you feel that you could deal with if things went a little bit wrong (which they often can do, eg pheasant spooks the horse), that gives you confidence both on the ground and in the saddle. Plus one that you will look forward to seeing.

ETA - I certainly do understand why Shay has suggested going for BHS gold and not using a veteran policy. It is something to consider. Petplan's veteran policy is here. https://www.petplanequine.co.uk/insurance/insurance-veteran-plan-details.asp You can insure for accidents up to £1k, but their 3rd party cover is quite low at only £3 million, when £10 million is advised for horse owners.

BHS Gold https://www.bhs.org.uk/membership/types-of-memberships/gold-membership

 

[Dougal9]

Hi

Thanks both for the comments - all very helpful. Lily is a x breed, a bit finer than a cob. I am hoping to have my forever horse - at my age I think that would be the most sensible option.... and I do get very attached anyway. Dougal is 9 years old, and is I guess more bomb proof than Lily, plus I am hoping that we can grow together and we will probably also end our riding days at around the same time too (hopefully) at which point we will both retire gracefully - he will not be sold. He never says no, even if I ask him incorrectly he will always try and do something for me I have hacked Dougal out and he is great, I haven't hacked Lily yet - although I am told she is more excitable on a hack. I am aiming to do a bit of everything, dressage (already done on Dougal) plus SJ and XC. The yard we will be moving to is an eventing yard. Dougal is something that I believe I could ride even when we are both very old and grey. I guess I've just sold myself on Dougal again - not that he was ever out of the picture. I think I also feel a bit sorry for Lily, as no-one has enquired about her yet, and she is such a sweetie - I really must try and think more practically !! It is difficult as I can't always ride Dougal which I can understand, I do always go and see him after my lesson though and he comes over straight away to me so I think there is a bond there already.
Thanks again, its really helped me to see things a bit more clearly

 

[BethH]

I'd go for Dougal myself - he is younger and will last longer - mercenary as that sounds. Also, I know so many horses that break once their work load reduces as they have less fitness & muscle to support any weaknesses they might have, riding school horses are going to be fitter than many privately owned happy hacks & an older horse is usually likely to have more wear & tear so may need to be kept fitter than you expect. You may find Dougal perks up once he away from a riding school environment. From personal experience my horse has had a number of issues that have given me huge vet bills and he is very sharp & spooky, it gets boring after a while, I'd thoroughly enjoy something same enough just to hack out on my own for a couple of hours. Don't underestimate the value of a horse with a sane head! Good luck & maybe try a few others too just to make sure you are making the right decision.

 

[wren123]

I would go for Dougal too as Beth says he is younger and will last longer. Also please please do have whatever horse you go for vetted by a recommended vet, not connected to the riding school. He will check their age and also pick up subtle signs of lameness that are easily missed. He will also check hearts and eyes etc.

 

[paddi22]

dougal 100%. he sounds exactly what you want.

 

[be positive]

Another vote for Dougal, buying Lily because you feel sorry for her is not a good idea, she is older, livelier, may change more once she is out of the RS and will be unlikely to give you much of a future as an allrounder, I also feel sorry for her being moved on at her age when she needs to be winding down a bit and hope the RS will keep her if no one decent comes along for her.

Do get Dougal, or any horse you buy, vetted, also try him a bit more outside a lesson/ school situation you need to ensure as far as you can that he is going to be happy working independently not all RS horses will go alone they can become rather clingy to others, if you are buying him the RS should let you try without having to pay for a lesson, show you are committed by offering a deposit subject to a satisfactory vetting and being able to have at least one relatively unsupervised session where you get him tacked up, ride, untack and put him away, ideally it should be before anyone else has ridden him that day.

 

[Dougal9]

Thanks again everyone - Yes I am going to have him 5* vetted by an independant vet, although as he is used for the RDA too he does get checked more often than maybe the other horses so I'm hoping there won't be anything too bad if at all, come out of it. He is proving to be popular too, apparently there have been quite a few enquiries, luckily I got my name on him first - price agreed and all confirmed.
I guess I was just having a bit of a wobble because I haven't ridden him for a while - hormonal probably, the menopause has a lot to answer for !!

 

[Dougal9]

Another vote for Dougal, buying Lily because you feel sorry for her is not a good idea, she is older, livelier, may change more once she is out of the RS and will be unlikely to give you much of a future as an allrounder, I also feel sorry for her being moved on at her age when she needs to be winding down a bit and hope the RS will keep her if no one decent comes along for her.

Do get Dougal, or any horse you buy, vetted, also try him a bit more outside a lesson/ school situation you need to ensure as far as you can that he is going to be happy working independently not all RS horses will go alone they can become rather clingy to others, if you are buying him the RS should let you try without having to pay for a lesson, show you are committed by offering a deposit subject to a satisfactory vetting and being able to have at least one relatively unsupervised session where you get him tacked up, ride, untack and put him away, ideally it should be before anyone else has ridden him that day.

I am having stable management lessons too and tacking/untacking every time I ride, but I always ride Dougal alone as I have private lessons. I think he will love the 1 to 1 attention that he will get

 

[Archangel]

Ooh how exciting and lucky Dougal (he sounds fab).

 

[Joanne_Stockport]

Another vote for Dougal, It's a good thing that you are on full livery to start with as you will have a lot to learn !
Things like feeding, saddle fit, rugging(or not),farriers, teeth, recognising if your horse is not well,ground work, etc..
I bought mine 2 years ago from the riding school where I was taking private riding lessons.
Mine was pretty young at five and I was pretty green (still is) after only a year of lessons ! It has took me a lot of time and effort as he was napping a lot when we were going out on our own...I think a lot of horses that comes from a riding school are like that as they normally hack in company. My friend too has bought a few horses from a riding school and they all had a problem with hacking alone (rearing, bucking,turning back, planting,etc..).
He might be quite different with only one rider so I would advise to continue having regular lessons to help you through the difficulties !
Good luck and have fun !

 

[Dougal9]

Hi Joanne

I'm trying very hard to persuade my current riding instructor to continue with our lessons at my new place on a freelance basis (she is the best of the best in my opinion - I've moved on more in the last 6 months under her tuition than I have since I came back to riding 2.5 years ago). Fortunately the new yard are OK with having outside instructors in and don't charge anything for it. They do have instructors that they recommend though. As far as hacking out alone, that will be a no no for a good while - I'm not keen on the idea anyway, I always think its safer to have at least 2 people. Dougal is fine hacking with just us and another horse, as I usually have a private hack anyway. I'm also having stable management lessons once a week. I just can't wait to get him to myself, unfortunately I'm going to have to - as although a price etc has already been agreed and he will be mine, the sale of the school won't go through until probably March but on the upside I've got plenty of time to get his new wardrobe together !!! Is it sad to enjoy horsey shopping rather than shopping for myself ..... !!

 

[Apercrumbie]

Dougal sounds like a brilliant option. Just be aware though - many riding school horses change a lot once they are no longer in a riding school and their routine has changed. He may start to really test you so it is important that you have lots of lessons and experienced help around you so it doesn't escalate. I'm sure you will be absolutely fine - it's just something that many don't tell people who buy angelic riding school ponies who turn out less angelic once in less work. You sound like you have a good yard to go to and a lovely instructor. Enjoy your lovely new horse!

 

[Dougal9]

Hi, to be honest I kind of hope he does change a bit, as he can be lazy so a bit more oomph would be nice - although obviously not too much - haha !! The yard are brilliant, I've been really lucky - there are 3 other ladies around my age there who also have recently got their first horse, so there will be lots of support and cobs aplenty ! Some of the yards in this area look down their noses at these wonderful horses ! Their loss I say

 

[Joanne_Stockport]

Hi Joanne

I'm trying very hard to persuade my current riding instructor to continue with our lessons at my new place on a freelance basis (she is the best of the best in my opinion - I've moved on more in the last 6 months under her tuition than I have since I came back to riding 2.5 years ago). Fortunately the new yard are OK with having outside instructors in and don't charge anything for it. They do have instructors that they recommend though. As far as hacking out alone, that will be a no no for a good while - I'm not keen on the idea anyway, I always think its safer to have at least 2 people. Dougal is fine hacking with just us and another horse, as I usually have a private hack anyway. I'm also having stable management lessons once a week. I just can't wait to get him to myself, unfortunately I'm going to have to - as although a price etc has already been agreed and he will be mine, the sale of the school won't go through until probably March but on the upside I've got plenty of time to get his new wardrobe together !!! Is it sad to enjoy horsey shopping rather than shopping for myself ..... !!

I know the feeling about buying horsey things...he gets more things than me ! I bought too many rugs last winter and he doesn't really need it as my vet recommended not to put anything other than a rain rug. He is a cob and he tends to balloon in the summer so she wants him to be quite trim at the end of the winter.
You seem quite prepared so that's good. I also did a stable management lesson before buying mine and it did help me. However there are still a lot I need to learn but I find that you do learn as you go. I always asks more experienced owners/riders when I'm not sure, however there is a lot of different opinions in the horsey world so sometimes you have to make your own mind !
Once you get to know your horse better make sure you notice the little things that can tell you if something is wrong. For example the original saddle I purchased (and I used a saddle fitter!) did not fit him and just little things I noticed was different (napping more, the way he was going,etc..) ..it is always better to find a problem earlier than later.
Have you had any lunging, ground work lesson so far ? if not that would be good too.
I must admit I only did ground work recently when I was out of action (after my cheeky boy threw me off when cantering in a field !) and it did make things a lot better afterwards.
Regarding hacking alone, yes in a way it's a lot safer to be with someone else but it always depends how they and their horse are like !
I am in a very small yard and I would have waiting to long (to find a buddy to hack with) so for me it is essential that I can hack on my own.
Depending how your horse is , you will find that you will be able to hack with some people and some not. What I mean is , mine for example I can get him to hack alone but it is still a real struggle to make him go in front so my hacking partner has a horse who likes to be in front and cannot be overtaken when cantering. However my horse can go in front for short period to go through scary bits.
There are some people that you will not want to hack with as their horse (or them) make it to much of a risky business !
Also people go hacking differently, my hacks are quite fast (as I train him for fun rides/endurance) so mostly trot and some canters when possible but I find a lot of people just want to plod (no cantering, little trotting) so for me it's not interesting.
The main advice is that when you decide to hack alone (but it applies to in company too) never turn back home ! Do loops and if your horse misbehave you can get off but do your route on the ground..do no turn back.

You should have a lot of fun with Dougal

 

[Dougal9]

Hi

I've had lunge lessons on him and I am planning to learn how to lunge him myself, and we do a lot of pole work (which for some reason we both love), so our flatwork is improving all the time. I've just started to jump (first one on Tuesday this week), it was amazing and definitely something I want to do more of including xc. I too like to hack with trot/canter, the only thing with Dougal is that he will always have to be at the back (which he doesn't seem to mind) as if another horse gets too close to him he will kick out. He is fine in the paddocks, its just confined spaces like the yard and hacking that he doesn't like it. He doesn't kick people, just horses !! At comps they tie a red ribbon round his tail as a warning sign

 

[Booboos]

Just a little note of caution on the fact that he kicks. If you want to school and hack it should be a manageable issue. If you want to compete or do fun rides or showing you may find you have more trouble. Some people do not notice red ribbons, others don't know what they mean and in some situations horses are just inevitably on top of each other.

 

[Dougal9]

Hi, apparently he has done quite a few comps and they've just made people aware as to what the red ribbon means and so far there have been no issues. I don't plan on doing any large one's anyway, I'm not at that level - yet ! He has also been shown, but that's not something that I'm keen on doing.

 

[applecart14]

Older horses will have more problems. Add that to a riding school environment where the horse is expected to go round in ever decreasing circles most probably unbalanced and on a less than perfect surface and its a recipe for disaster. I'd steer clear of both to be honest, sorry that might seem harsh but you have a massive choice of horse out there on the market at the moment, why compromise?

Sorry it might sound harsh but its just my opinion.

 

[Dougal9]

I hear where you are coming from - but I know and trust Dougal, which means a lot to me. He is safe, he is bomb proof (as much as any horse can be), and whilst he is a riding school horse he does have more to offer - like me, he isn't just a plodder !. As someone new to owning their own horse, I don't think I would be happy buying one from the open market I don't trust that people are being honest with some horses. Anyway, why spend hours and hours tearing around the country trying to find the right horse, when I've already (nearly) got him - give me a horse that I know and trust any day

 

[applecart14]

I hear where you are coming from - but I know and trust Dougal, which means a lot to me. He is safe, he is bomb proof (as much as any horse can be), and whilst he is a riding school horse he does have more to offer - like me, he isn't just a plodder !. As someone new to owning their own horse, I don't think I would be happy buying one from the open market I don't trust that people are being honest with some horses. Anyway, why spend hours and hours tearing around the country trying to find the right horse, when I've already (nearly) got him - give me a horse that I know and trust any day

Appreciate what you are saying with trust, etc but I think you might be looking through rose tinted spectacles a little with the naiviety that comes from being a first time owner (I do not mean that patronising or nasty, just with the very best intentions in mind). Even on the best surfaces horses will break, and being used in a riding school continuously on a less than ideal surface does not lend itself to having a sound horse suitable for a first time owner. If you are not wanting to get a vetting I would at least ask a vet to give him the once over to check he is completely sound before you buy him for the very reasons I have stated previously.

I hope the vet finds him suitable for you as you have obviously decided to buy him from the sounds of it!

 

[Dougal9]

That's OK - no offence taken, but we all have to start somewhere and I think starting with something that I know and trust is not a bad thing. He will have the 5* vetting done before any money changes hands, that was always a given.

 

[Booboos]

The transition from riding school horse to privately owned is generally a challenging one. The owner thinks the horse will be grateful for the special cuddles, the new expensive livery, the new tack, etc...the horse is more likely than not freaked out by his security blanket being removed and his work load slashed. By buying a riding school horse you are taking a risk that he will adjust to his new life and do so smoothly. If you were to buy a privately owned first horse that had been out grown you'd have less of an adjustment issue.

 

[be positive]

The transition from riding school horse to privately owned is generally a challenging one. The owner thinks the horse will be grateful for the special cuddles, the new expensive livery, the new tack, etc...the horse is more likely than not freaked out by his security blanket being removed and his work load slashed. By buying a riding school horse you are taking a risk that he will adjust to his new life and do so smoothly. If you were to buy a privately owned first horse that had been out grown you'd have less of an adjustment issue.

In this case though the OP has been able to get to know the horse, hopefully the RS will allow her to gradually do more and Dougal to do less schoolwork as they wind down with the lessons, trying to find a decent privately owned horse is like a needle in a haystack add to that a first time buyer and the odds are they will be worse off than taking the risk on one they already know even if it does change a bit she has good backup available she is not taking him home to manage alone.

A 5 stage vetting is planned so that covers applecarts concerns, he is hardly old at 9/10 by the time of purchase, as for the workload most RS horses spend a lot of time in walk with short periods of trot, canter and some jumping also hacking tends to be steady not bombing about the countryside, they are generally fitter than the average privately owned hack and should be more than able to cope with at least another 10 years or so of what in reality will be light work, I think it is far less risky than going out to look for a privately owned horse that may appear sound, fit and healthy but has been barely worked most of it's life so is far greener than expected or hammered round the roads at weekends with nothing during the week, or may well have had some issues that are not declared.

All horses have the potential to break or not cope with a new home, if the RS owners are honest they will want Dougal and the OP to be a good match and will facilitate a transition period if possible, maybe a month as a working livery would be a good idea once they have a sale date confirmed, not all RS horses are going to panic about leaving the school, if they are well educated, have been out to competitions and seen life outside it may be the making of him to have one to one attention within a well run livery yard.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

The transition from riding school horse to privately owned is generally a challenging one. The owner thinks the horse will be grateful for the special cuddles, the new expensive livery, the new tack, etc...the horse is more likely than not freaked out by his security blanket being removed and his work load slashed. By buying a riding school horse you are taking a risk that he will adjust to his new life and do so smoothly. If you were to buy a privately owned first horse that had been out grown you'd have less of an adjustment issue.

When the riding school at my old livery yard closed most of the horses were sold to clients and at substantial prices. I know at least 6 of the new owners well and not one had any significant issues. If anything the horses improved with individual attention. I know of at least 3 that are still with original buyer, two were sold on as outgrown and one belonging to a close friend of mine died of something that sounded like grass sickness a few years later.
I think it's less of a risk than buying a complete unknown but buying a horse is always a risk regardless.

 

[Dougal9]

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts/comments - they are all very much appreciated no matter how hard some of them may be to read. Dougal does no more than 2 hours a day (not every day) and that applies to all the horses at the school. My instructor (who is also the yard manager there and has been for 25 years) has known Dougal since he first arrived aged 4, and she would not have put me forward to the RS owner unless she thought we were a good match. At 2,500 incl tack, he isn't over priced, in fact I think I have a bargain based on similar horses of the same age/type/ability that are advertised on the open market - I did my research before agreeing the price !! The yard that I am moving to also has a couple of ex RS school horses, and none of the owners or horses have had any issues, hopefully Dougal and I will be the same. One of the stipulations of the sale of all the RS horses, is that none of them go on to a working livery. The owner feels that they have done their time, and believes that they all now deserve to have 1 to 1 care rather than go into another riding school environment. She is taking the older one's with her, plus a couple of her favourites but not starting up another RS school. None of the horses that are for sale will be advertised, they will only be sold to Clients, friends of Clients etc. and prospective owners are vetted too.
I do know that buying a horse new tack, extra cuddles etc will not make things right if he is unhappy, and I don't believe horses know how to feel grateful do they - that's just a human emotion that we choose to apply to them. I have worked with animals (mainly dogs) in the behaviourist field, and know that things like TTouch massage can be applied to horses to help calm them should they need it. So I'm not quite that green !! I won't be changing any of the style of tack he is used to, but will purchase like for like. However the yard that I am moving to have a process in place where he will be introduced slowly to his new companions, his daily routine will be kept as close as possible to what he has been used to including feed and the transition to new routines etc will be made very slowly. It is a small yard with only about 12 horses, so giving a new horse a bit more attention and help to settle in will not be a problem for them. I am lucky in that I will also be able to use the farrier/saddler and dentist that he has been used to also.
I don't understand why some people are against buying RS horses (a friend of mine is trying everything to stop me buying him, she has a beautiful dutch warm blood dressage horse who spooks, spins, bucks and rears at the drop of a hat) - they are in the main better trained than some of the one's on the open market and have had a good standard of care. Yes, some of them are dopey but there are a few diamonds amongst them too that shouldn't necessarily be overlooked. And yes, Dougal is one of them !!

 

[VioletFlower]

I think Dougal sounds great and I'm sure all will be well. There are indeed some great horses at riding schools. I think you are making a very sensible choice (wish I hhjad with my choice of first horse!) Sounds like you have lots of experienced help on hand if you do get any challenges.

I'd be cautious of the 19yo, I'd be concerned you'd not get many years out of her, most horses will be having some wear and tear issues by then. If you had to retire her, you'd have nothing to ride.

 

[Joanne_Stockport]

As I said before, the horsey world is full of diverging opinion so you can "listen" to all the different advice (and think about it) but it's up to you to make your own judgement (and you do not have to justify yourself).
When I bought mine I was in the same situation (and later on when trying to deal with issues) , having only been riding riding for a year and wanting to buy a RS horse. On top of it, mine was being sold because he did not adjust to being in the RS and had learn all the tricks to escape working ! So he would plant, not wanting to go in the arena , with a rider on he would push them on to the fence,etc..
Even my instructor did not recommend for me to buy it ! However one of the other instructors at the RS (who liked him) started working one to one with him and you could see that he started to behave better. So he was sold pretty cheap because of that and I though the worst case scenario is that I will have to sell him if it doesn't work. So two year later he is still with me , it has been up and down but I have learned so much ! Almost a year ago, I almost decided to sell him as we were having real problems (particularly in the arena where he did not want to move !) but with a new instructor things have improved (still need to work). He is more happy too in general. We are getting pretty good at hacking which is what I and he enjoy the most. The last year has been pretty good as we started going to fun rides (12 miles) and I came back with a few rosettes !

You seem more prepared than what I was at the time and you probably know more about horses than I did 2 years ago.
I think people who are giving their advices against buying RS horses do it because they know people who have had issues with them.
Either they bought them thinking they will be the same as they were at the riding school or not doing a vetting before and having problems later.

I always listen to advice, particularly if it comes from experienced riders/horse owners but at the end of the day they are not always right (for your particular situation). I know my horse and what works (or not) and with make a decision based on that.
I say go for it !!

 

[Dougal9]

Thanks Joanne, really appreciate your comments. I am going with my gut instinct, its never let me down before, but I'm still trying to take what I can from people's advice too - it can be a difficult blend sometimes ...
I'm not someone who gives up easily, and so if things are difficult when we first move I've got people around me in the yard to help and my instructor will always be on hand, if not to teach then to definitely give advice.