Dilemna RE yard staff and chiffney bit

[quirky]

We have a couple of horses on our yard that have become a little lively to turn out.
The YO tells the staff to leave them and she will turn them out, even though the staff are older and experienced, she doesn't want them getting injured.

I think this is the right thing to do .

OP - I know you said you are moving yards but if you have any concerns in the future talk to the YO/YM before a small problem festers into a bigger one.
It drives my YO nuts if she finds people sniping behind her back, she'd rather they spoke to her. Not sure why they don't as she is most approachable.

 

[Tinypony]

I really don't think this is sniping behind anyone's back though, do you? No yard identified, Op has just sought some second opinions before going to deal with the situation. If nobody was allowed to do that half the threads would vanish here.

 

[quirky]

I really don't think this is sniping behind anyone's back though, do you? No yard identified, Op has just sought some second opinions before going to deal with the situation. If nobody was allowed to do that half the threads would vanish here.

Ooh, no, I wasn't implying she was sniping , what I was trying to say was that people should really voice their concerns as something small can fester into something bigger.

I think you interpreted my last sentence all wrong .

 

[Tinypony]

That's why I posted, don't worry, I thought I might have done. Reading further up I see that op has done a lot of "communicating" but it doesn't seem to do a lot of good.

 

[siennamum]

It sounds like this poor horse gets, a small amount of hay at the owners expense when he comes in, then nothing till tea time when he gets a small net and a hard feed.

I may be wrong, but if that's the case then he will be very stressed and ravenous by the morning and will inevitably be keen to get in the field to have something to eat.

The regime is not just unacceptable, it's cruel and I would want my horse out of there immediately.

The yard manager is clearly clueless, the problem could be overcome in a number of simple ways, without resorting to chifneys. For a start the horse could have a net for an hour before he goes out, or could be left out for more than a few hours.

I'd be moving straight away. tbh, a thick rug & a companion & this horse would probably be better off in a paddock somewhere out 24/7.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Thank goodness you are moving yards. Sounds terrible & very unproffessional, having young folk who dont have a clue how to handle horses working there just shows the unproffessionalism of the YO. I would get out of there ASAP & make it no secret why you are leaving, might make people think twice about taking their horses there. Good luck with new yard

 

[Natch]

Horse is kept on livery where yard staff turn out and bring in.

A while back, I had been informed second hand (through another livery client) that my TB had been demonstrating 'dangerous behaviour' when turning out ie rearing up and general exiteability. Supposedly he had been taking off and had even been told that staff were letting him go several occasions. i will add that some of the staff are quite young and not overly experienced.

As none of the actual staff had informed me themselves , I approached one of them and questioned it, and was told yes he had been quite full of himself of late. I put this down to exiteability of going out in the mornings as the horses go out around 8.30 and are in by 2pm, often earlier. Then they are often left standing in without any hay until evening feed time.


I know in the past with my horse, the only times he has ever been a bit bargy with me to lead out is when he is the last horse to go out or if his companions are being led ahead of him. I explained this to yard staff. In the past when he has been like this I would lead him out in a chiffney for a couple of days then he would be fine being lead from a headcollar. However they had been using it all the time to lead him desite him no longer playing up. I can lead him myself with no problems in just a headcollar.

Now over the weekend, I went down to see my horse and to my horror found he was standing in the stable still wearing a chiffney bit! I took my chiffney away that night, as I wasnt happy with it being used everyday when it wasnt needed, and the fact that he was left in a stable still wearing it made my blood run cold. What annoyed me more was that nobody seemed to think that much of a big deal about my horse potentially breaking his jaw!

Now yesterday, one of the yard staff asked me to bring my chiffney back to the yard. I asked why and was told that she was not happy for the girls to lead him without it. I asked if he had been misbehaving and she said no, but in the event that he might misbehave she wanted him to wear it regardless when being led around.

I explained that I did not want him wearing it when not required and the fact that they had forgotten to remove it was the final nail in the coffin. However i begrudginly left it as it wouldnt surprise me if they turned around and refused to turn him out. I just dont trust them . Luckily I am moving yards but just dont know what to do for the next few weeks

Sorry I haven't time to read through all the answers, but if Yo is away for 2 weeks they must have left someone in charge. In my opinion as long as those who use it know how it is used and how harsh it can be, the chifney is fine to be used day to day - prudent, even. It won't come into effect until the horse pulls - IF it is being used correctly.

I would ask that only the senior staff turn him out - safer for the horse, safer for the handler. I'd also come down like a ton of bricks for it being left on in the stable - maybe they had some weird reasoning that is worth finding out and sorting out a solution for.

 

[natalia]

Re- Queenbee- "Then staff are so bloody dense that they should not be employed and the yard manager must have come free with a box of cackers. It is NOT the responsibility of the owner to train the yards staff, it is the responsibility of the yard manager, and it is also the responsibility of the manager/ YO to employ staff with at least 1 brain cell"

Sorry but a lot of young inexperienced equine staff do so not only because they love horses but also because they are a bit dense! Most normal people won't get up at the crack of dawn every morning to muck out other peoples horses for less than minimum wage and the get slagged off by liveries in the process.

Your staff are what you make them. Sadly not many people will understand the dangers of leaving a chiffney on, or horse in a bridle untied, horse with reins hanging, the list goes on, until they see the consequences of doing so.

The problem with liveries thinking its "not my job" to teach staff how you would like your horse handled is that you tend to create a very "them and us" atmosphere between yourselves and the staff. A kind word and explaination of what to do will often go a very long way.

Same with the hay issue, lots of competition horses o not have ad lib hay, hence if you have a problem I would leave a small holed haynet with instructions you would like this hung up once horse is out and he is mucked out, ready for him to come in to.

If your really some sort of mute the best way round any of these problems and to make all the rules for your horse clear is to a get a small white board and marker pen and hang outside the stable with instructions on what you want done. Ie
CHIFNEY ONLY TO BE USED TO AND FROM FIELD AND REMOVED WHEN BROUGHT IN
SMALL HAYNET TO BE HUNG UP ONCE HORSE IS MUCKED OUT
any boots used for turnout, ruging instructions etc.

If I have specific instructions for my horses I leave instructions on the door for the staff, that way you know they will have seen it. Any staff out of an equine college will also be likely used to this system as its how the majority of them operate (this also serves as a written warning on horse handling/special instructions before they go in the box, thus taking away any claims that horse is bad and staff were not told).

If you have a half a brain yourself there really should be no need to get in these situations as they are all easily avoidable, mainly through communication. All horses are individuals and should be treated as so, as should all people, this includes the grooms who care for your horse!

 

[Baileyhoss]

Sorry but a lot of young inexperienced equine staff do so not only because they love horses but also because they are a bit dense! Most normal people won't get up at the crack of dawn every morning to muck out other peoples horses for less than minimum wage and the get slagged off by liveries in the process.

Rubbish - staff at yards in my experience are bright YOUNG people who work there because they are dedicated to horses!. With their inexperience and age, comes a little lack of maturity, common sense or horse sense, but very few are thick!

Your staff are what you make them. Sadly not many people will understand the dangers of leaving a chiffney on, or horse in a bridle untied, horse with reins hanging, the list goes on, until they see the consequences of doing so.

Agree that your staff are what YOU make them. It's the yard owners job to teach staff to handle horses safely. They shouldn't see the consquences of mistakes like that - being told what could happen by their BOSS should be enough!. If they see the consequences of their mistakes then they are not being trained or supervised enough!.

The problem with liveries thinking its "not my job" to teach staff how you would like your horse handled is that you tend to create a very "them and us" atmosphere between yourselves and the staff. A kind word and explaination of what to do will often go a very long way.

Sorry but, it's not their job - they pay - a bloody lot of money- to have their horses cared for and kept safe. A full livery client may not even be there every day or be that knowledgable themselves!. They are paying for the expert care!. It's up to the YO/YM to explain things to your staff. I might expect to explain to a groom that I like rugs done a certain way or my horse needs his legs stretched on girthing as he's prone to galls, but i certainly shouldn't have to explain that my horse shouldn't be left for hours without hay.

I am talking as an ex full time groom (started inexperienced, left very experienced!), a manager of staff & a full livery client.
The yard OP describes has management issues way beyond her sorting them out as a client - she should find a more responsibly managed yard!

 

[lexiedhb]

Umm to be honest, if your nag is now being a saint to lead to the field, then having a chiffney on wont do him one iota of harm for the next 2 weeks, until you move him- as long as it has been made AS CLEAR AS DAY that it is not to be left on in the stable, then i would just drop it.

The horsey world has an immense gossip machine, and you do not want to be known as the "difficult livery with the nuts TB"

 

[misst]

Having owned a big bouncy TB who could scare the ***** out of me I have sympathy with the staff. I found him very hard to turn out - my daughter didn't nor did experienced yard staff. However we left a chifney to be used at YO discresion(SP!).

I think there are 2 issues here - one is safety for the staff and for the horse himself and a chifney is a useful piece of kit in the right hands. Safety has to be the first issue.

The second is staff. Inexperienced staff must start somewhere but YO is responsible for their training and supervision and putting a chifney on a big horse does not in itself make anyone safe.

I would move yards to somewhere where there is always someone you can trust on duty to supervise junior members.

 

[coen]

I would be completely furious. How dangerous!
For one the staff who are working on the yard should be experienced enough to deal with turning a horse out easily enough. So what he gets lively on occasions all horses do its part & parcel of having horses and you are paying them. My horse can be tricky but I certainly wouldn't let anyone lead him around in a chifney. And if they aren't capable they definitely shouldn't be using a chiffney which can cause so much harm in the wrong hands.

I am glad to see your are leaving, god knows what has been happening when you haven't been there. I would try to move earlier if possible if not I would speak try to put out myself or ask another livery you trust. Surely the staff can bring him in with a headcollar.

 

[lexiedhb]

Surely the staff can bring him in with a headcollar.

Um obviously not- as this was the point. the horse has in the past been a pain in the butt without the chiffney (so the OP says). Why shouldnt they have what they feel is a bit more control over an unruly TB? and if he is being good to lead now, having the chifney in wont hurt him for the 2 weeks or so he has left at the yard!

 

[spaniel]

OP - when they are turning out and bringing in with the chifney are they using a seperate headcollar and leadrope as well??

 

[horsegirl]

Exactly - you limit grass with muzzles if need be.

If you'd given constant hay to our lamanitic ponies you would have killed them...

Most fit competition horses at top level eventing will have less hay and more corn, so they can't have constant hay.

Even double haynets doesn't slow down a really greedy equine.

Better to have frequent, regular nets that are weighed for the type of horse and the work that it is doing than constant.

And a lack of forage is what causes ulcers/cribbing etc. Most horses are not fit top level eventers! Then use a triple haynet. Giving multiple nets is an option if there is someone there to do that. Not every yard offers this option and if it is a choice between the horse standing for hours with nothing or giving a load of hay in one go I know which I would do. My horse gets as much hay as he will eat, the only reason to give hard feed on top of unlimited hay is if the horse is working too much to just manage with hay. Too may people give feeds to fatties/laminitics and only 1 wedge of hay when IMO they would be better not giving the feed and just giving more hay! The horse then has a steady trickle of food all the time rather than food for 1 hour and nothing the rest of the time.

 

[NELSON11]

I'm sorry but what a load of piffle.
It is the YM/YO's job to train the staff, end of story.
It is their job to assess each horse their staff are expected to deal with and to place those staff accordingly.
If their staff can't handle the horse safely then it wouldn't hurt them to handle it themselves, after all, they are happy enough to take the clients money, if they can't fulfil the basic needs of the horse then they should say so and then the client could make arrangements to move ASAP if they have any sense.
It's not unfair to say that it's also their job to handle horses that their staff are not experienced to handle themselves if they accept that horse as a livery.
It is not a livery clients job to tell them to feed the horse, that should be an automatic response from what you hope to be an experienced YM who has a proper understanding of safe stable management and has a proper routine.
Anything less than those basics and the YM/YO is in the wrong job as they clearly have no clue about the responsibility for other peoples horses that goes with the job.

Ditto all of the above in a decent yard imo.

 

[lochpearl]

OP I understand leaving one on in the stable would make you mad - I imagine I would explode there and then seeing that!

As to the staff being young and inexperienced, how do you mean? Could you explain how they are leading the horse in wrong with the chifney or if he has any damage?

I have 2 strapping horses, one pure ID 5 year old 16.3 and a 16.2 strapping ISH 8 year old, both come in like a steam train, never once reared or misbehaved but together there is potentially a chance for them to misbehave. I will not allow anyone on the yard to lead them without a chifney. Firstly, I do not want the handler to get hurt or my boys. I have a lovely 14 year old boy who brings them in daily, he is not the most experienced person (learning!) but he is kind and he would never abuse the chifney.

 

[skint1]

I feel for you in that the routine does not sound ideal for your horse, and really they didn't need to leave him standing in with his chifney, and I don't like any horse to be left standing in with no hay for hours on end, but I can see their point about wanting to put a chifney on him to turn out and bring in, both for his own safety and the safety of the yard workers.

My daughter spent a lot of time as a younger teen working on competition/livery yard, it is a hard and thankless job for the most part, and from my perspective, providing the staff have had proper training in using a chifney, anything done to improve their safety while at work is a reasonable compromise.

 

[Dirtymare]

How about suggesting staff use the horse's bridle to lead about in. Possibly a bit safer for both staff and horse?

 

[foxy1]

Sorry haven't read all replies but having run a livery yard myself if there was a difficult horse to lead, I would either turn it out myself or ask a capable member of staff to do so.

If I wasn't capable of handling said horse I shouldn't be running a livery yard!

If a member of staff left a chifney on a horse in the stable (heaven forbid!) then they would receive a written warning and the owner of the horse would be profusely apologised to.

Absolutely unforgivable incompetance. Get out quick!

 

[Maesfen]

Thank goodness Foxy, a livery YM/YO (even an ex one like me) that actually talks responsible sense with perspective from both sides.

 

[Queenbee]

Re- Queenbee- "Then staff are so bloody dense that they should not be employed and the yard manager must have come free with a box of cackers. It is NOT the responsibility of the owner to train the yards staff, it is the responsibility of the yard manager, and it is also the responsibility of the manager/ YO to employ staff with at least 1 brain cell"

Sorry but a lot of young inexperienced equine staff do so not only because they love horses but also because they are a bit dense! Most normal people won't get up at the crack of dawn every morning to muck out other peoples horses for less than minimum wage and the get slagged off by liveries in the process.

Your staff are what you make them. Sadly not many people will understand the dangers of leaving a chiffney on, or horse in a bridle untied, horse with reins hanging, the list goes on, until they see the consequences of doing so.

The problem with liveries thinking its "not my job" to teach staff how you would like your horse handled is that you tend to create a very "them and us" atmosphere between yourselves and the staff. A kind word and explaination of what to do will often go a very long way.

Same with the hay issue, lots of competition horses o not have ad lib hay, hence if you have a problem I would leave a small holed haynet with instructions you would like this hung up once horse is out and he is mucked out, ready for him to come in to.

If your really some sort of mute the best way round any of these problems and to make all the rules for your horse clear is to a get a small white board and marker pen and hang outside the stable with instructions on what you want done. Ie
CHIFNEY ONLY TO BE USED TO AND FROM FIELD AND REMOVED WHEN BROUGHT IN
SMALL HAYNET TO BE HUNG UP ONCE HORSE IS MUCKED OUT
any boots used for turnout, ruging instructions etc.

If I have specific instructions for my horses I leave instructions on the door for the staff, that way you know they will have seen it. Any staff out of an equine college will also be likely used to this system as its how the majority of them operate (this also serves as a written warning on horse handling/special instructions before they go in the box, thus taking away any claims that horse is bad and staff were not told).

If you have a half a brain yourself there really should be no need to get in these situations as they are all easily avoidable, mainly through communication. All horses are individuals and should be treated as so, as should all people, this includes the grooms who care for your horse!

If I had a *head-desk smiley* i would use it right now, but since I don't know where it is I will just say Arrrgh!!!!!

1. Communication is key, yes I have already agreed with this: but communication should not just come from the liveries to YM/staff etc. It should be between YM and Staff, and YM/Staff to Liveries! example:

YM to inexperienced staff: 'now then this is how we use a chiffney, we attach it like so, we NEVER yank, WE NEVER EVER leave it on horse and ONLY use it to lead horse, watch now and I will demonstrate, now staff do you have any questions?

YM to owner: I thought I would point out to you that your horse is standing for long period without hay on his current ration, you may not have noticed so I thought I would mention it to you, are you ok with this or shall I top him up for you during the day, it will cost you more though, also he is a lottle git at the moment to turn out in the field any suggestions... oh a chiffney, excellent! I wonder since it is your horse and you know how to use it, would you be kind enough to instruct *anne* who turns out your horse in the safe practice of using a chiffney, thanks ever so much!'

2. As a YM (hypothetical have been YM long time ago) I would not allow any inexperienced member of staff to use anything like a chiffney/draw reins or any other potentially serious gadget without demonstrating correct use (this is called 'teaching and passing on skills and knowledge') regardless of whether or not the livery had already given instructions.

3.As a livery I would discuss correct ways to handle/ treat my horse and how to use any 'gadgets' but would also expect a 'responsible YM to be doing the same'

4.YO/YM buck stops there. If they can't be bothered to ensure their staff are behaving appropriately, using equipment the correct way they aren't up to the job of YM. They arent just responsible for the staff and their safety, they are responsible for the horse's welfare, they endangered the safety of OP's horse, do you really think that this is because OP didn't tell the staff how to do their job?! or are you just sniffing glue today?

Quote:
Sorry but a lot of young inexperienced equine staff do so not only because they love horses but also because they are a bit dense! Most normal people won't get up at the crack of dawn every morning to muck out other peoples horses for less than minimum wage and the get slagged off by liveries in the process.
Granted: this is also known as 'passion', passionate people are wont to learn, they look to the YM who is the oracle to them and all knowing and experienced to teach them, so teach. And I am really sorry but where oh where does inexperience class as stupidity? I know a lot of inexperienced people who are not stupid! Hence the comment about employing someone with half a brain cell (also known as 'common sense') The staff at the yard in question have NO common sense! I would have no problem employing an inexperienced staff member, but NOT one who lacks common sense and would therefore be a liability and a danger.

Communication: yes

 

[teddyt]

Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things.

It is not a customers job to train the staff! If you are paying for a livery service then you expect a basic standard of care. I learnt not to leave a horse tacked up or with a headcollar on unattended when i was ten! That sort of horsemanship is appalling and really reflects badly on the quality of yard im afraid. Backed up by the fact that the horse is left in for hours without hay.

 

[Pipkin]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-

You have a big bouncy TB who has been unruley to turn out and some less experienced staff having to do day to day care jobs ie turn out. Poss on a training system. The staff are not comfortable handling your horse in a head collar (and actually if it was being naughty most sensible people won't battle on with it in just a head collar) so they use the chifney. this is for he safety of the staff who may if squished present legal action if the horse was a known pain in the back side, and also for your horse who I'm sure you would not want getting lose and ding himself some damage to which then you could also create more stress and legal action claiming negligence. Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff! Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

If staff dont know how to use a chifney and the dangers they shouldnt be bloody using it in the first place! As for having to gain experience through training, awfully sorry wouldnt let someone incompetent handle my horse!

As for the hay thing, if im paying for a service i expect there to be an actual service...leaving my horse in until tea time with nothing to eat would Pee me off!!!! Boredom often leads to injury!

Surely a YM should be ensuring their staff are competent to do a job.....an injured horse and member of staff would surely make a YM/YO liable???

OP I`d either move your horse sooner or start doing tasks yourself and taking it off your bill!!!

 

[Queenbee]

If I had a *head-desk smiley* i would use it right now, but since I don't know where it is I will just say Arrrgh!!!!!

1. Communication is key, yes I have already agreed with this: but communication should not just come from the liveries to YM/staff etc. It should be between YM and Staff, and YM/Staff to Liveries! example:

YM to inexperienced staff: 'now then this is how we use a chiffney, we attach it like so, we NEVER yank, WE NEVER EVER leave it on horse and ONLY use it to lead horse, watch now and I will demonstrate, now staff do you have any questions?

YM to owner: I thought I would point out to you that your horse is standing for long period without hay on his current ration, you may not have noticed so I thought I would mention it to you, are you ok with this or shall I top him up for you during the day, it will cost you more though, also he is a lottle git at the moment to turn out in the field any suggestions... oh a chiffney, excellent! I wonder since it is your horse and you know how to use it, would you be kind enough to instruct *anne* who turns out your horse in the safe practice of using a chiffney, thanks ever so much!'

2. As a YM (hypothetical have been YM long time ago) I would not allow any inexperienced member of staff to use anything like a chiffney/draw reins or any other potentially serious gadget without demonstrating correct use (this is called 'teaching and passing on skills and knowledge') regardless of whether or not the livery had already given instructions.

3.As a livery I would discuss correct ways to handle/ treat my horse and how to use any 'gadgets' but would also expect a 'responsible YM to be doing the same'

4.YO/YM buck stops there. If they can't be bothered to ensure their staff are behaving appropriately, using equipment the correct way they aren't up to the job of YM. They arent just responsible for the staff and their safety, they are responsible for the horse's welfare, they endangered the safety of OP's horse, do you really think that this is because OP didn't tell the staff how to do their job?! or are you just sniffing glue today?

Quote:
Sorry but a lot of young inexperienced equine staff do so not only because they love horses but also because they are a bit dense! Most normal people won't get up at the crack of dawn every morning to muck out other peoples horses for less than minimum wage and the get slagged off by liveries in the process.

Granted: this is also known as 'passion', passionate people are wont to learn, they look to the YM who is the oracle to them and all knowing and experienced to teach them, so teach. And I am really sorry but where oh where does inexperience class as stupidity? I know a lot of inexperienced people who are not stupid! Hence the comment about employing someone with half a brain cell (also known as 'common sense') The staff at the yard in question have NO common sense! I would have no problem employing an inexperienced staff member, but NOT one who lacks common sense and would therefore be a liability and a danger.

 

[mcnaughty]

Unfortunately you are partly to blame for this. You told them he could be silly and that when he was - you used a chiffney - you even left if there for them to use.

There is no excuse for it being left on him, but you can't blame them for being concerned that your horse is sometimes silly about being led, unfortunately we live in a claim society now and I suspect they are worried he is going to hurt someone and they will be sued.

You need to speak to the Manager and ask that only experience staff handle him in the last few weeks that he is there.

I agree with big red too - however, I would tell them that under NO circumstances must the chifney be left on a second longer than necessary again.