Dipping our toes into classical...

[Lauren_abigail]

So I have had my first classical dressage lesson recently. I wanted to improve my geldings way of going and teach more lightness of aids, which we worked toawrds in my lesson.

However, as it is a totally different way of riding to what I am used to, Jack didn't go as round as he would normally.

I was expecting this as he is using different muscles to hold himself properly etc and I know it will take a little time to get back to where we need to be.

Does anyone have any advice on totally restarting education to flatwork?

We were doing really well, and I want this to continue but in a classically trained way. I know I'm impatient and I shouldn't be really.

I had planned myself in for a few dressage tests over the next couple of months, but now I'm wondering if it's worth just not bothering until I am in a better place with his schooling?

 

[Cortez]

Ummm, I think you'll find that changing your way of riding and training will be akin to unravelling an old sweater and knitting it up again - a rather long process that will be a bit messy in the middle. Classical dressage and competitive dressage also tend to have rather different goals that often are mustually exclusive. Good luck; I know which path I prefer (classical); I couldn't be bothered with competing these days.

 

[Wheels]

Ha, I started taking an interest in classical riding about 6 years ago and I'm still only toe deep lol

As Cortez says it is a long process, sit back and enjoy it. Compete if you want but the beauty for me is in the training

 

[tristar]

just let go, as soon as you start to ride in this way your horse should improve and just give the muscles time to remodel, horses seem to understand the language of classical because its their language

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Ummm, I think you'll find that changing your way of riding and training will be akin to unravelling an old sweater and knitting it up again - a rather long process that will be a bit messy in the middle.

From what I have been reading up on, I had expected this sort of scenario!

I find it all fascinating, does anyone have any recommendations on good stuff to read up on?

 

[Pigeon]

Do you think it is possible to follow classical principles and still be competitive in modern dressage?

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Do you think it is possible to follow classical principles and still be competitive in modern dressage?

I had hoped so! Although as I said, I am very much a newbie to the classical side of things.

Do you not think so?

 

[Pigeon]

I don't know enough about classical to say! Was wondering if anyone here rode classical and still competed? The principles all sound great to me (patience, lightness etc etc) and it would be a shame if it wasn't marked as well.

 

[DirectorFury]

Do you think it is possible to follow classical principles and still be competitive in modern dressage?

Carl Hester and Charlotte DJ both claim to train classically. Mr Hester is usually present on the Classical Riding Club facebook page and will weigh in on certain subjects .

 

[Lauren_abigail]

Carl Hester and Charlotte DJ both claim to train classically. Mr Hester is usually present on the Classical Riding Club facebook page and will weigh in on certain subjects .

Wonderful, I am now off to stalk Mr Hester on facebook! :lol:

 

[Elbie]

I don't know enough about classical to say! Was wondering if anyone here rode classical and still competed? The principles all sound great to me (patience, lightness etc etc) and it would be a shame if it wasn't marked as well.

We started training with a classical trainer about 3 years ago. I still have a long way to go but still compete unaff dressage under BD rules. I think the differences in BD and classical comps is that classical will place the way the horse is going over the accuracy. So if you had to walk at A, if you did it just after but did a lovely balanced transition you would score higher than someone who did a mediocre transition bang on A.

It is a long process - I was practically demolished and am still being rebuilt! But the horse has definitely improved and does carry herself better now

 

[chestnut cob]

Yes I think it is possible to train classically and compete. A correctly trained horse is a correctly trained horse, whichever method you follow, surely? I've seen badly trained "modern" school horses and badly trained "classical" horses. And I've seen plenty of good in both too. If the horse is correct and accurate then it should score appropriately.

 

[Cortez]

While I agree that in theory a classically presented horse is competitive against a horse trained in the "modern" way, in practise the odds are stacked against a classically trained combination as the way of going is quite different. There are some movements required in dressage tests that are not present at all in the classical repetoire (1 X changes, fully extended paces, etc.), and at the lower levels the classical way of going is a positive no-no, i.e. shorter, rounder, softer and ultimately slower than what judges are accustomed (and trained) to see.

 

[tallyho!]

I don't know enough about classical to say! Was wondering if anyone here rode classical and still competed? The principles all sound great to me (patience, lightness etc etc) and it would be a shame if it wasn't marked as well.

Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin compete on horses that have trained based on classical principles and CH is a CRC member and lecturer as far as I know.

 

[ajn1610]

I've recently started working with a Classical Trainer and having a lesson every couple of months for about a year and a half. We've done a lot of in hand work which has really helped so maybe ask if your trainer can show you some of those techniques. I've found it quite complimentary to my existing training TBH, it is a slightly different path to the same goal and I can cherry pick and utilise what I find helpful in my everyday work. If you are finding this isn't the case perhaps you should revaluate what you are doing as it is likely to be confusing for both you and the horse. For myself I wouldn't like to work in that way constantly and wouldn't want my horse to work the way you see a lot of classical horses presented. It wouldn't suit us but I have found lots of it really informative.

 

[Elbie]

I have enjoyed my classical lessons and no way will go back now! I used to ride quite short. My toes turned out and I was just a bit 'pinchy'. We always struggled getting impulsion and the horse working round. No instructor ever pointed to issues with my riding. The solution was always hands low and wide and force the head down "into an outline".

Started lessons with classical instructor. She looked at me and said "let's have a look at you first, then we'll look at the horse". Queue many months of riding with stirrups long enough so my foot just rested in it to loosen me up. We're now at a stage where we can get alignment, impulsion and topline (although not consistently, and not always at the same time!). Instructor hates the word 'position' and is always reminding me to MOVE! She said she's not teaching me one way to sit or ride, she's giving me a tool box of techniques

 

[chestnut cob]

I have enjoyed my classical lessons and no way will go back now! I used to ride quite short. My toes turned out and I was just a bit 'pinchy'. We always struggled getting impulsion and the horse working round. No instructor ever pointed to issues with my riding. The solution was always hands low and wide and force the head down "into an outline".

Started lessons with classical instructor. She looked at me and said "let's have a look at you first, then we'll look at the horse". Queue many months of riding with stirrups long enough so my foot just rested in it to loosen me up. We're now at a stage where we can get alignment, impulsion and topline (although not consistently, and not always at the same time!). Instructor hates the word 'position' and is always reminding me to MOVE! She said she's not teaching me one way to sit or ride, she's giving me a tool box of techniques

This is not exclusive to classical though, you've just found a good instructor. A good instructor in any camp should be doing all of this. I've known good and bad in both.

 

[Wheels]

Well yes chestnut cob - it should be at the forefront of every instructor! But in all honesty I'm yet to come across a non-classical instructor that REALLY gets to the bottom of rider posture.

I'm sure there are some out there but the ones I've personally had lessons with might keep reminding me to keep my heels down or put my shoulders slightly further back, tell me to keep my toes pointing forwards or whatever other problems there might be at the time but have done little to help me improve my seat which is really a skill in itself - skill for the instructor to firstly know what is wrong with the seat and then to be able to explain how to make it better.

My trainer sorted out my seat over a period of time & everything else has pretty much fallen into place where previous non-classical instructors have left me feeling contorted and stiff looking in the saddle

I don't think there is enough emphasis on that in any of the teaching programmes TBH

 

[Cortez]

What's wrong with most riders' seats is..............they don't have one. And what's wrong with most teaching is that there is no longer an emphasis in getting the rider to develop a seat BEFORE they are let loose (literally) on the further business of actually riding and operating the horse at faster paces, over jumps, etc. How many people nowadays were started off on the lunge, I wonder?

 

[Lauren_abigail]

What's wrong with most riders' seats is..............they don't have one. And what's wrong with most teaching is that there is no longer an emphasis in getting the rider to develop a seat BEFORE they are let loose (literally) on the further business of actually riding and operating the horse at faster paces, over jumps, etc. How many people nowadays were started off on the lunge, I wonder?

Not very many I'm guessing!

I had a couple of lunge lessons at the start of this year (so by no means at the start of my riding education!) and it made me think that they should be part of a learners lessons.

I learnt so much from having 3 or 4 quality lunge lessons, that you just can't teach while having to faff around with reins at the same time!

My seat is nowhere near as established as it needs to be, and I will continue to have a lunge lesson every couple of months to keep me going.

Interestingly, a lot of the girls at the yard (who are a fan of strapping the horse into an outline) scoffed at me when I told them I was having a lunge lesson...

 

[Cortez]

I am quite old (heading for 60, yikes!), started riding quite young by being thrown on and falling off a lot (standard practice over here), then had the inestimable good fortune to go to the continent at 14 and was put on the lunge. I spent 6 MONTHS on a lungeline before I was deemed fit to control a horse on my own; best thing that ever happened and I will be grateful 'til my last riding day. The majority of riders that I see nowadays, even the 'professional' ones, make me weep - for the horse.

 

[Lauren_abigail]

I wish I had the opportunity to do 6 months on a lungeline I hate doing my office job, I often think about how my riding would progress if I could do nothing but ride and be taught everyday - Oh to dream!!

Yes I totally agree, it astounds me the amount of sellers that are about that quite clearly don't have a clue.

 

[Simon Battram]

There are some movements required in dressage tests that are not present at all in the classical repetoire (1 X changes, fully extended paces, etc.), .

I have to disagree with this. 1 tempi changes are practiced by all of the Classical schools and full extensions by some.

The French trainer, Francois Baucher, 'invented' or maybe better 'discovered' the 1 tempis and yes there was a great degree of debate at the Spanish Riding School as to whether they should be included and in the end it was decided they should be.

As for whether classical and competition mix well yes, definitely. I ride, teach and competed all under the same banner and it worked for me. As a little bit of gossip, to be confirmed (read it on FaceBook): Florian Bacher, the rider from the Spanish Riding School who presented the in-hand section at Carl and Richards Dressage Convention last year is said to be going to base himself with Carl this July to then compete his horse at Hickstead and Hartpury - classical doing competition!!
Simon

 

[Cortez]

I have to disagree with this. 1 tempi changes are practiced by all of the Classical schools and full extensions by some.

The French trainer, Francois Baucher, 'invented' or maybe better 'discovered' the 1 tempis and yes there was a great degree of debate at the Spanish Riding School as to whether they should be included and in the end it was decided they should be.

As for whether classical and competition mix well yes, definitely. I ride, teach and competed all under the same banner and it worked for me. As a little bit of gossip, to be confirmed (read it on FaceBook): Florian Bacher, the rider from the Spanish Riding School who presented the in-hand section at Carl and Richards Dressage Convention last year is said to be going to base himself with Carl this July to then compete his horse at Hickstead and Hartpury - classical doing competition!!
Simon

Well, I'd debate whether Baucher is a classical source - then we'd be back to the old "what is classical?" elliptical argument, and I don't want to get started at that! The SRS (also the Jerez school and the Portuguese) base their training on de la Guerniniére, and all schools have riders who compete with considerable success, some up to Olympic level.

 

[Simon Battram]

Well, I'd debate whether Baucher is a classical source - then we'd be back to the old "what is classical?" elliptical argument, and I don't want to get started at that! The SRS (also the Jerez school and the Portuguese) base their training on de la Guerniniére, and all schools have riders who compete with considerable success, some up to Olympic level.

You cannot pick and choose who is and who is not a classical master of old. Classical simply refers to the masters of old of which Baucher was one. Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of his but simply stating the fact re the one tempi's.

The SRS and the Cadre Noir do indeed base there writings on the work by Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere. The interesting fact is that both having done this and ended up with a completely different system of training the horse. The French obtain lightness before movement; the SRS obtain lightness through movement, a totally different approach. All interesting stuff.
Simon

 

[siennamum]

I had an interesting weekend, very unusually for me, doing dressage on both Saturday and Sunday.

Both days I watched people who had clearly been taught that you must first get the head down and in & then ride strongly to keep the horse forward.

One lady, who clearly loved her horse was parked next to me and was demoralised when she came back to her trailer as her horse went dead on her in the test. I could see when she warmed up that the horse was in a complete stranglehold and surmised it had lost the will to live, as well as potentially suffering from a lack of oxygen.

On Sunday, we went eventing where things are worse IMO because there are so many fine types with long necks which were winched in and often broken at the 3rd v.

What really struck me was that these people did no good! I know we do see incorrect training rewarded, but generally judges are rewarding correct (more classical) riding.

I think we see this when there are so many people who moan about the judge being harsh or judges being erratic. It's a lack of education is all, & bad training. I think classical riding from people like CH is starting to change perceptions and in my limited experience, following classical principles will result in a good score at a mainstream event.

I rode an iberian type with major contact issues. After a winter of walking the lanes & working in hand to address crookedness, we focussed only on rythym & softness/calmness & he scored 65%, so judges do reward old fashioned riding. I'm from a generation where the first lesson taught was ear, shoulder, hip, heel! We've just moved away from it in recent years, thankfully the tide is turning.

 

[Lauren_abigail]

I had an interesting weekend, very unusually for me, doing dressage on both Saturday and Sunday.


What really struck me was that these people did no good! I know we do see incorrect training rewarded, but generally judges are rewarding correct (more classical) riding.

That's quite interesting Siennamum, what level was the dressage you are referring to?

I find that where I compete locally, it is the opposite (however I am talking unaffiliated tests with unaffiliated judges so perhaps that is why)

A friend of mine has just started taking her new horse out, and has been concentrating on good rhythm rather than squashing the horses head and neck into an 'outline'. She went out and did a lovely intro test last weekend, the horse was working correctly, rhythmically and accurately, but she got slated by the judges because the horse wasn't in a consistent outline.

Now aside from the fact that it was an intro test and at that level an outline isn't required, it did make me think that a lot of 'judges' are completely clueless!

I know that equally there are fantastic judges. I was quite disappointed in the whole event, my friend was really demoralized and she really shouldn't have been.

 

[siennamum]

tbh, I expected my horse to get slated. If you think about pulling back on the reins he throws his head, crosses his jaw, grinds his teeth. It's very good discipline as a rider haha.

In any school, or at any competition if I am honest, I would expect the judge to harshly mark a horse who was evidently unsteady in the contact - aside from baby, lack of balance wobbles.

My test was also just aiming for rythym and calmness, but the horse's head is always pretty much in the 'right place' and he overtracks by half a mile - he will score ok, so long as you do all the right things in all the right places tbh.

My firt test was a local EC, we only scored 58%, but were still 2nd. Very fair score tbh & an outing to get the horse to work in boards (our first ever test), 2nd test was RC areas & the judge was very fair, list 6, but everything she said was pretty much spot on.

 

[wingedhorse]

In any school, or at any competition if I am honest, I would expect the judge to harshly mark a horse who was evidently unsteady in the contact - aside from baby, lack of balance wobbles.

Echo this. And some riders ride with an emphasis on keeping horse round and consistent to the contact, as their key focus - which done well scores most marks, assuming all else is equal.

Others ride in a more open and freer frame, but risk the horses coming off hte bridle, if there is a focus or rhythm blip.

That as I see it is a key difference between some more competition focused versus some more classical riders competing.

 

[tristar]

sounds great siennamum, what you did with your horse`s prep to improve ,i find Iberian horses can really back off to the too forwards strong leg and contact thing, they just need to be ridden classically!