Discipline of horses.

[Flame_]

IMHO a horse is no more likely to learn to behave better from six lashes for a whip than it is from one sharp smack, and anyone out hunting who battered their horse for kicking would be doing it more out of embarrasment than for influencing their horses future behaviour patterns. My last horse kicked on the second occasion I took him hunting because he got defensive when he got uptight. I just never took him again because there would have been no amount of whipping in the universe that could have made him behave appropriately in that situation. However, I think smacking a horse at the right moment in many situations can help it to learn how to behave better in future and in the long run, lead to a happier horse who knows what the rules are.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet again, some of you are being totally ignorant.

<font color="blue"> So disagreeing with Magic-mincepie = ignorant? It could be worse, we could be rude

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I have 2 horses who are shod and 2 ponies who have gone barefoot this year. I have to say that going barefoot has changed them for the better. By choice Id love to have the other 2 barefoot but unfortunately its not practical to due to lack of grip competing.
<font color="blue"> Or it would have changed them for the better had they not been slipping all over the place when doing BSJA. I'm sure it would be successful if all barefoot horses were sound.... </font>

Quit slagging off barefoot - you have absolutely no idea about it! I cant believe you all tear the crap out of trying to keep the horse as natural as possible. And by the way, the reason I went barefoot on these 2 in the first place was due to BAD farriery.
<font color="blue"> This is an open forum, we can discuss anything we like, whether you like it or not. So are you saying that your poor Welsh D has to endure terrible farriery so you can do something as selfish and unnatural as compete him?

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There is a huge difference between one tap and beating up a horse. Those who "wallop" their horses or beat them up deserve the same done to them IMO. As someone said, horses do NOT know what is right or wrong, however neither do children to begin with - is it ok to beat the crap out of them?! IMO it just shows a total lack of respect and understanding of the horse.

One of my horses went through a phase as a youngster of trying to kick other horses at shows. I made sure he knew it was wrong however I also didnt beat the hell out of him for it because he wasn't doing it out of nastiness, he simply felt threatened when others invaded his space which is understandable, why beat up a horse when he's scared already?!
<font color="blue"> And how exactly did you 'make sure he knew it was wrong' if you don't mind us asking? Did you discuss it with him?

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He soon got used to it and the kicking attempts stopped completely. Most horses do not do things to try and piss us off, maybe some of you should sit back and think about WHY the horse bucks / kicks etc. before laying into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Nobody in this thread was suggesting that horses do things to 'pi$$ us off', however nobody can allow a horse to endanger itself, other horses, or especially humans by its behaviour so measures must be taken to modify behaviour </font>

<font color="blue"> I suspect you are quite young, from the nature of your posts, so suspect your views will mellow with time. Not everything is black and white in life (except zebras, perhaps)

S

</font>

 

[SpruceRI]

winkfieldsnowball: I completely agree.

 

[wrighty]

"seems like wrighty lit the touchpaper and ran away - maybe this isn't going quite as anticipated"
No, if you see from the time of my post it is early morning, I work nights and unable to get online at home.

I didn't start this thread to go back to the one I was having earlier, I just wanted to see what others thought about it. I don't think I put the comments out of context either I just wanted to know if the things stated were too extreme.

 

[MagicMelon]

[ QUOTE ]
So disagreeing with Magic-mincepie = ignorant? It could be worse, we could be rude

Or it would have changed them for the better had they not been slipping all over the place when doing BSJA. I'm sure it would be successful if all barefoot horses were sound....
This is an open forum, we can discuss anything we like, whether you like it or not. So are you saying that your poor Welsh D has to endure terrible farriery so you can do something as selfish and unnatural as compete him?

And how exactly did you 'make sure he knew it was wrong' if you don't mind us asking? Did you discuss it with him?

Nobody in this thread was suggesting that horses do things to 'pi$$ us off', however nobody can allow a horse to endanger itself, other horses, or especially humans by its behaviour so measures must be taken to modify behaviour
I suspect you are quite young, from the nature of your posts, so suspect your views will mellow with time. Not everything is black and white in life (except zebras, perhaps)

[/ QUOTE ]

- I said you were ignorant for slagging off something you clearly know nothing about. I couldn't give a rats ass if you disagree with me or not.
- How many horse do you know who are lame through barefoot trimming? I'm unsure which type of trimming you are thinking of... there are several different methods.
- With regard to my Welsh D: no my farrier is fine with traditional farriery - ie. I have never had any problems with his shoeing. However, when one of mine came down with laminitis last year, he decided to start neglecting her trimming telling me she should be trimmed LESS (opposite is true obviously) and shaped her feet very oddly to the point that when I got the vet out to see them, she asked if I was going to report him...
- I have never said you cannot discuss things on here. But if someone is being ignorant about something they know absolutely nothing about that I am within my rights to disagree. Is that not the point of this forum?!
- Don't be so petty, no I didnt "discuss" it with him. I simply growled extremely loudly at him and pushed him off into trot and leg yielding or whatever to get his mind off it. He soon learnt that if he began to think about kicking that he'd be asked to work hard (ie. leg yielding) suddenly and a horrid noise would be heard.
- I guess I am still young compared with yourself... I'm 25 but from the sound of you're old fashioned views, you must be rather old...

Try not to talk down to others, its really quite sad and comments about age only make yourself sound immature and petty. I have had several run-ins with you before, we clearly have totally opposite views.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]

- I said you were ignorant for slagging off something you clearly know nothing about. I couldn't give a rats ass if you disagree with me or not.
<font color="blue">And it's completely impossible that you are ever wrong? Oh, to be 25 again!

</font>
- How many horse do you know who are lame through barefoot trimming? I'm unsure which type of trimming you are thinking of... there are several different methods.
<font color="blue">You only have to join a barefoot forum to see the problems people experience trying to go 'barefoot' with horses whose breeding does not lend itself to the practice, TB's for example often have poorer quality horn. I have three horses, two of whom aren't shod as they're youngsters. Of these two, one will probably be able to work without shoes...the other may well need shoes on....time will tell. My old TB can't walk if she even loses one shoe.....
Not everything is black and white, you see. </font>
- With regard to my Welsh D: no my farrier is fine with traditional farriery - ie. I have never had any problems with his shoeing. However, when one of mine came down with laminitis last year, he decided to start neglecting her trimming telling me she should be trimmed LESS (opposite is true obviously) and shaped her feet very oddly to the point that when I got the vet out to see them, she asked if I was going to report him...
<font color="blue"> You've confused me totally here - either your farrier is fine and you've never had any problems or you're going to report him? Lost me there. Hope you're laminitic is recovering, anyway. </font>
- I have never said you cannot discuss things on here. But if someone is being ignorant about something they know absolutely nothing about that I am within my rights to disagree. Is that not the point of this forum?!
<font color="blue">Agreed - we are entitled not to entirely agree with each other...that's what makes it interesting. </font>
- Don't be so petty, no I didnt "discuss" it with him. I simply growled extremely loudly at him and pushed him off into trot and leg yielding or whatever to get his mind off it. He soon learnt that if he began to think about kicking that he'd be asked to work hard (ie. leg yielding) suddenly and a horrid noise would be heard.
<font color="blue"> So as 'negative reinforcement you kick him with your legs instead of smacking with a whip....same difference. And ditto with noise aversion. </font>
- I guess I am still young compared with yourself... I'm 25 but from the sound of you're old fashioned views, you must be rather old...
<font color="blue">Old enough to know that everyone's horses are different

...what works for one will not work for another. I agree life is much simpler (or appears to be) when you are younger.... </font>
Try not to talk down to others, its really quite sad and comments about age only make yourself sound immature and petty. I have had several run-ins with you before, we clearly have totally opposite views.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> And old enough not to resort to insults when I'm losing the argument...

Bless. I'm now confused again....am I 'old fashioned' or am I 'immature and petty'? I don't recall any 'run ins' with you...perhaps you take everything a little bit too personally? Just a thought

S</font>

 

[the watcher]

Oh do chill out. If you had taken the trouble to read Shilasdair's original post properly you would have seen that it was firmly tongue in cheek - there was no need to describe anybody as ignorant - one of the advantages of great age is the accumulation of knowledge and experience.

I am sure Shilasdair will reply in due course, at the moment I believe she is polishing her Zimmer frame

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure Shilasdair will reply in due course, at the moment I believe she is polishing her Zimmer frame

[/ QUOTE ]

My zimmerframe is duly polished and 'go faster' stripes applied. Just takes me so long to reply, what with my arthritic fingers....
S

 

[MagicMelon]

the_winter - tongue in cheek? Seemed like a pretty rude post to me!

Shilasdair - I will not quote you because it makes for a very long boring post:

1) I have never said I am right. I am saying not to slag off something which you don't know anything about. You're the one joking about it and saying it lames horses. You're totally right when you say some things work for some horses and not others - I totally agree. In which case, some horses can go barefoot happily whereas others can't. Yet, you slag barefoot off outright... I have never claimed all horses can go barefoot - I would never put one of mine barefoot because I know he wouldn't cope.
2) With regards to the farrier: As I said he shoes perfectly well, however he's not good at trimming ponies who have problems. His opinion was totally incorrect for the pony at the time which thus ruined her hooves. As a result, I have him for the 2 shod horses and the barefoot trimmer for the 2 ponies.
3) I believe that making a noise and SQUEEZING with my legs is a much kinder option than beating him with a whip... Pretty simple I believe!
4) I take nothing personally on this forum. I enjoy debates and I do have strong opinions, I don't think that's a bad thing.

PS. Try taking some Superflex for those fingers...

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
the_winter - tongue in cheek? Seemed like a pretty rude post to me!
<font color="blue">I can only aspire to the levels of decorum your posts achieve

</font>
Shilasdair - I will not quote you because it makes for a very long boring post:
<font color="blue"> Oh, go on, I'm in work avoidance mode at the moment...so anything long and time consuming works for me

</font>

1) I have never said I am right. I am saying not to slag off something which you don't know anything about. You're the one joking about it and saying it lames horses. You're totally right when you say some things work for some horses and not others - I totally agree. In which case, some horses can go barefoot happily whereas others can't. Yet, you slag barefoot off outright... I have never claimed all horses can go barefoot - I would never put one of mine barefoot because I know he wouldn't cope.
<font color="blue"> So am I slagging off barefoot, or am I joking about it - you'll have to work that one out. I can't believe you don't know people who insist their horses go barefoot when, like your one/two that you sensibly had reshod when they lost grip, they obviously don't cope in the circumstances. So perhaps I wasn't teasing barefooties per se, but the rather obsessive element... </font>
2) With regards to the farrier: As I said he shoes perfectly well, however he's not good at trimming ponies who have problems. His opinion was totally incorrect for the pony at the time which thus ruined her hooves. As a result, I have him for the 2 shod horses and the barefoot trimmer for the 2 ponies.
<font color="blue"> You must be more forgiving than I am: if my farrier couldn't trim my youngsters AND shoe my old dear, I'd be giving him his marching orders..although I know that farriers in the N of Scotland are harder to change as there are fewer of them </font>
3) I believe that making a noise and SQUEEZING with my legs is a much kinder option than beating him with a whip... Pretty simple I believe!
<font color="blue"> What would you do if your horse doesn't respond to squeeze? I'm not having a go, just curious whether you'd eventually smack...or give up riding if your horse was very lazy? </font>
4) I take nothing personally on this forum. I enjoy debates and I do have strong opinions, I don't think that's a bad thing.
<font color="blue"> Agreed. I think it's important for you to know I don't mean anything personally against you. </font>
PS. Try taking some Superflex for those fingers...

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> May try it....I think it's all that waxing of my zimmer frame to make the air glide by for aerodynamic purposes....

</font>
S

 

[MagicMelon]

1) Ok, so if it was the obsessive barefoot trimming people you're slagging off then maybe you should have stated that and not make such a sweeping comment originally.

2) You stated the exact problem with regard to farriers up here. We DID look around at the time, however ALL had huge waiting lists just to get put on their books. Everybody knows how difficult it can be to get a farrier in the first place, so unfortunately I'm in a no win situation. I have to just stick with the one I have.

3) My horses aren't very lazy so I don't have to smack them... Don't get me wrong the whip does have its place (to back up schooling aids etc.) - I am not claiming I never use one. But I think it it over-used and often used in the wrong situations. THAT has been my arguement all along.

4) That's good, ditto.

 

[wrighty]

At least I have worked one thing out from this thread, arguing and insults ruin the flow a bit. Hmmmm?

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
At the end of the day I think Rosiep hit the nail on the head. You have to be so quick to correct a horse so they know what was the negative behaviour they should not have done...otherwise the moment is lost and you may as well forget it and move on.


[/ QUOTE ]

SO true. I have a foal - 5 months - who has 'attitude' (partly his mother's fault and partly because he was born with Neonatal Maladjustment Syndrome and had a LOT of treatment to keep him alive in the first two weeks.

The other day, I put his and Mum's haylage a bit close to the fence - he went to lie down and roll in it so I reached through the fence and smacked his bum with my hand to get him up before he got stuck. He tried to double-barrel me and hit the fence post hard! THEN tried to roll in the hay again - so I smacked his bum again. He DIDN'T attempt to kick THAT time - the fence post had taught him the consequences of his actions with immediate effect.

Most people who hit a horse for doing something 'bad' do it too late - if it's not instant, it's only going to create a nervous, or possibly bad-tempered horse who doesn't understand why! A kick is an instant reaction from a horse - forgotten just as instantly. I think a horse who kicks out hunting should be hit - and hit hard - assuming the rider was awake enough to feel the kick start and hit instantly. Then the horse will learn. But a horse shouldn't be beaten to satisfy other members of the hunting field!