Discipline?

[BeBopTalulah]

I read an article in Horse and Rider online about what to do if your horse rears-up with you. I was quite astonished and I quote "...when he comes down give him a pat and say 'good'." Now I know he's aiming to praise all four feet being on the ground, but.......that's not what I was taught. In fact, I'm afraid to post what I was taught to do! Has discipline changed, or am I just out-of-date? I don't think I'm an aggressive person, but if a horse bit, kicked, breenged or showed any avoidable dangerous behaviour I'd wallop him. No? I understand that a route cause needs to be found for nearly all behaviours, but surely in that split second before you've worked it out it needs to be nipped in the bud?

What are your attitudes to discipline and how much success have you had?

P.S I've had a lot of mares

 

[dianchi]

Personally ive always nipped bad behaviour in the bud!
Short sharp reminder has always been my view. Even with my naughty mare

 

[TrasaM]

I was on a hack a while back with someone who whacked her horse for rearing. It just made her worse and she added some bucks in for good measure. In this particular instance it made things worse. My instinct would be to reassure not punish.

 

[Emilieu]

My boy doesn't rear but he does take off. I stop him and praise him when he stops. Seems very little point in punishing him once the bad behaviour has ceased which I imagine that would prompt him to take off again. I suppose rearing is slightly different in that you could probably manage to punish while the bahviour was still happening... i thinki'd be too busy hanging on for dear life however!

 

[Brightbay]

"dis·ci·pline


noun
1.
training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.
2.
activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.
3.
punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.
4.
the rigor or training effect of experience, adversity, etc.: the harsh discipline of poverty.
5.
behavior in accord with rules of conduct; behavior and order maintained by training and control: good discipline in an army. "

Number 1 above, yes - I spend a lot of time training my horse to respond to my cues. I use learning by association, repetition, reward and some pressure and release (negative reinforcement).
Number 2 above, yes, I try to spend some time training both of us every day.
Number 3 above, no, I don't use this. I'm a psychologist and I know that using active punishment or correction has two undesirable effects - first, it suppresses the behaviour, but does not extinguish it: if the circumstances are bad enough, the horse will still rear even if you have whacked it in the past. Second, unpleasant things are associated not just with the behaviour, but with the situation: so your horse rears and you whack him - he learns that he gets whacked when he rears, and also that the place and person associated with the pain are also not to be trusted. There is a third aspect, which is that the rear is a communication from the horse. If you suppress it, next time instead of a rear, you may get something you like even less. Shutting down communications (from both horses and humans) leads to bottling up and explosions. At which point of course we say "I have no idea what happened: he bolted/bucked/attacked me completely out of the blue".

Number 4 above - I would rather training was an enjoyable experience for both myself and my horse, as otherwise I don't really see the point in having a horse
Number 5 above- to some extent, but it's up to me to train so that the horse understands my cues, since he has no mental concept of "rules".

So yes, I try to be relatively disciplined, but not in all senses of the word

 

[Love]

I think once you know your horse you can tell if their behaviour is down to something causing discomfort or something that has spooked them or wether they are being just plain naughty. You can then react accordingly. We are only human and are bound to misjudge occasionally, but what more can we do?

 

[TrasaM]

Discipline. Sounds so much better than Punish.

 

[blitznbobs]

I clobber their nose if they nip, smack em if they kick but I don't hit a horse on board... I ignore bad and praise the good... Seems to work for me. If I punish a horse on board it just seems to add to the tension I'm trying to get rid of...

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

I clobber their nose if they nip, smack em if they kick but I don't hit a horse on board... I ignore bad and praise the good... Seems to work for me. If I punish a horse on board it just seems to add to the tension I'm trying to get rid of...

^^^^^agree with the above

 

[BeBopTalulah]

Discipline. Sounds so much better than Punish.

It does doesn't it? :-D

Well, I've never had to practice this but I was taught by a good old 'horse wuman' that if he rears up, you grab on tight and rattle the bit in his mouth. Any thing to make it the worst decision he's ever made. However, in that situation I think I'd be more interested in the 'hanging on' part. So, grumpy old riding school instructor (who came very highly recommended btw) or a more modern psychological approach.....

I once waited at a quiet little bridge on a country lane for an hour until we decided there was nothing with french tastes living underneath it. Battle of wills at times I think.

 

[khalswitz]

I was always taught that when a horse rears, to hit it with your hand between the ears. This makes them feel like they've hit into something as they go up, and puts them off rearing so high next time. It doesn't solve the actual problem, of course, and you need to treat the cause not just the symptoms, but as long as you are working to treat the cause then I think telling them that a behaviour is unacceptable is fair play. I've worked with a couple of horse who had learned to rear to get out of work. In that circumstance you do have to ride it out and make a point of both telling them that rearing is unacceptable, and praising them the minute they move forward and work.

 

[paddi22]

It does doesn't it? :-D

Well, I've never had to practice this but I was taught by a good old 'horse wuman' that if he rears up, you grab on tight and rattle the bit in his mouth. Any thing to make it the worst decision he's ever made.

I'd be afraid that would pull the horse back on top of me! I can't see how someone would manage that with a full on vertical rear

 

[Clodagh]

I'd be afraid that would pull the horse back on top of me! I can't see how someone would manage that with a full on vertical rear

I think that was from the ground.
I would try to preempt the rear, not much point hitting them when it is over. You should be able to see it coming - wallop them then!! (Or spin in a circle, or whatever).

 

[Clodagh]

I was always taught that when a horse rears, to hit it with your hand between the ears. This makes them feel like they've hit into something as they go up, and puts them off rearing so high next time. It doesn't solve the actual problem, of course, and you need to treat the cause not just the symptoms, but as long as you are working to treat the cause then I think telling them that a behaviour is unacceptable is fair play. I've worked with a couple of horse who had learned to rear to get out of work. In that circumstance you do have to ride it out and make a point of both telling them that rearing is unacceptable, and praising them the minute they move forward and work.

I would truly admire anyone coordinated enough to do that! Although I admit with my last mare, who spent more time on her hind legs than all four, out hunting she did get the odd good clunk with the hunting whip. If nothing else she then reared while ducking her head.

 

[fburton]

you need to treat the cause not just the symptoms

Agree completely with this.

, but as long as you are working to treat the cause then I think telling them that a behaviour is unacceptable is fair play.

It's interesting how the response to bad (i.e. unwanted) behaviour is described in more or less personal terms. I prefer to think in terms of punishing (or rewarding) behaviours rather than the horse himself. So for me there is no "telling", only an action chosen and calculated to make the unwanted behaviour less likely to recur, or a wanted one more likely. Yes, there is thought and intention behind every action, maybe even emotion too, but I believe it is primarily the action and how it's received by the horse that makes the difference in changing behaviours.

Does this distinction affect our responses to unwanted behaviour? I'm not sure! However, I think it's the reason I don't find the word 'discipline' particularly useful in describing what I do.

 

[fburton]

Discipline. Sounds so much better than Punish.

Or, even better, Correct! :cool3:

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I once attended a course about working with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. I will always remember the speaker saying "All behaviour is in the service of the reduction of tension".

When I feel myself getting cross/impatient with anyone, child, adult or animal, I ask myself why they are behaving the way they are and try to diffuse the situation. I find that praise and reward tend to change behaviour rather than punishment and certainly wouldn't punish a horse for doing what I've just asked it to do, i.e. bring all four hooves back onto the ground, what would be the point of that?

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

I would never yank a rear-er in the mouth!!! I think that is the devils advocate there!!!! Half the reason (maybe over exaggeration) why horses do rear is because they've been constantly jabbed in the "gob"

As said earlier, I would personally usually ignore it, however if it was a nappy little sod I would prob push all by body weight against its front end and kick it forward. I guess it depends on the horse. You certainly wouldn't want to be physically reprimanding a nervous/flighty rearer!

 

[Cortez]

If my horses need a wallop they get it, but they rarely do nowadays (quite possibly because of the aforementioned....). Horses respond quite poorly to all of the currently fashionable fluffy stuff if the behaviour of many horses that I meet is anything to go by, but that is the owners fault, not the horses. I wouldn't hit a rearing horse, but since rearing is most always the ultimate "I won't go" I would quite likely have made it go forwards quite forcefully before it even thought about going up, so it didn't (does that make any sense whatsoever? Probably not).

 

[Cortez]

Oh, and if a horse rears (I mean really rear, not just hop up a bit), I generally pull it round to the side and give it a kick up the a**se.

 

[Annagain]

I agree it's all about the reason why he's rearing - if a horse is rearing because he's frightened of something, I'd be more likely to reassure once it's over.

If, like my old boy, it's down to "LET ME AT 'EM" ignoring is the best thing to do. If I'd taken a hand off the reins to pat him we'd have been off and if I'd hit him, god knows where we'd have ended up! He was always in control though and never went so high as to go over backwards. He just had so much energy, if he couldn't go forward, he'd have to go somewhere and up it was, unless he did his other trick where his back feet would go backwards but his front feet would be planted so he'd end up almost lying on the floor! I just used to sit it out until he was allowed to go (normally he'd rear when we were waiting for the bell to start a SJ round)

A napper - provided it is pure napping and there's no other issues (which is a long shot in itself) would be best sent forward with a good smack or pony club kick.

 

[Goldenstar]

[SUB][/SUB]Horses rear for lots of different reasons , why it's happened dictates how you deal with it.
For instance my best horse would rear in the warm up for the XC she always did it it was because she wanted to go but could not so up went the energy she did it all her ridden career with us in the ten minute box all she had to do was see me look like I was ready to get on all she needed was a pat.
Thats completely different to an older horse rearing and refusing to walk down the road .

 

[amandap]

I too believe you need to look at why? Often that means at ourselves along with physical possibilities etc.

Isn't the effectiveness (or not) of discipline/correction/punishment/a good belt, all to do with timing of the punishment?

I'm leaving controlling by generalized fear aside.

 

[NellRosk]

I really think it depends on the situation. My mare only ever goes up when she's highly distressed or anxious so a 'wallop' would make her so much worse. When she goes up I reassure her and talk to her and she's usually fine after that. However when she's being a stubborn cow then she gets a whack!

 

[fburton]

Isn't the effectiveness (or not) of discipline/correction/punishment/a good belt, all to do with timing of the punishment?

Timing is crucial, yes - but also getting the severity/strength right. Too severe and you risk creating fear and/or resentment; not strong enough and the message doesn't get through or is ignored. That is something that has to be judged in the moment, based on past experience and knowing the horse you are dealing with.

Punishment is easier to get wrong than reward, e.g. it's hard to overdo praise.

I think a lot of the bad behaviour one sees these days (and used to see) is down to poor timing and/or inconsistent application of reward, release and punishment, rather than how much of each of these is used.

 

[Patterdale]

If my horses need a wallop they get it, but they rarely do nowadays (quite possibly because of the aforementioned....). Horses respond quite poorly to all of the currently fashionable fluffy stuff if the behaviour of many horses that I meet is anything to go by, but that is the owners fault, not the horses.

Oh, and if a horse rears (I mean really rear, not just hop up a bit), I generally pull it round to the side and give it a kick up the a**se.

Totally agree! Particularly the first part.

 

[asommerville]

well the first time my youngster reared was at a genuine fright in a collecting ring....i hung on and ignored it, the next day he tried again - for nothing and just because he did it the day before, thrn he got a sore bottom.and hasnt done it since - sounds fair to me

 

[fburton]

As a matter of interest, what is this "currently fashionable fluffy stuff " and where does it come from? I don't read horse magazines these days (apart from H&H, obviously! ).

 

[babymare]

I agree with horses understanding the "rules" but thereis a reasin for behaviour. my "dangerous"mare reared before i bought and got battered. i went back to basics won her trust. But she was unbekniwn to previous owner who prefered whip she was starting to go blind and was reacting to bad sight. hitting her reinforced her fear. she never reared with me schooling hacking jumping. Sometimes every avenue needs exploring

 

[Bantry]

I wouldn't hit a rearing horse, but since rearing is most always the ultimate "I won't go" I would quite likely have made it go forwards quite forcefully before it even thought about going up, so it didn't (does that make any sense whatsoever? Probably not).

This is what I was going to say. While the horse is rearing I'd only be concerned with staying balanced and ensuring I didn't pull the horse over!. Once all 4 feet are on the ground, sent forward immediately with a strong leg aid! Horse will hopefully associate rearing with extra work.