Discussion about livery

[SantaVera]

There are a few threads on the forum about yards closing and people having to find other accommodation for their horses often with a short notice period. This is a horrible situation for people to be in. Not only the horse owners but for some of the yard owners too. Maybe some have sold for house building and having done well financially but others will be closing because it just isn't economic. Some liveries are paying little, maybe helping the yo out in exchange for use of a field. All this leads me to think that maybe the time has come for places to charge more, provide excellent facilities all have contracts and get everything on a proper profitable business footing. Coffee and hobnobs for all who have got this far. What are people's thoughts?

 

[Polos Mum]

If all YO / Farmers and casual field renters were fully insured, paid themselves and everyone else national living wage (above minimum wage) and invested in quality maintenance and made a sensible profit - say 8% return on their capital invested.
Honestly barely anyone would be able to afford livery and there would be a mass exodus of people from the horse owning world.

Unless it's the Isle of Sky - land is almost always above £10k an acre now. So just to get the same return that you would putting that money into a relatively low risk investment you'd need to charge £100 a month before any time / facilities etc. (assuming sensible space so 1.5 acres per horse)

TBH if you found 4-5 acres for £50k down south somewhere people would fight over it - they can go for 4/ 5 x that.

I don't know what the answer is because it would be such a shame for it to become really elitist. Kids are often already priced out of lessons as reputable places because they are massive and the option to hang around the yard all day 'helping' (as I'd guess many of us did as kids) isn't there any more. Parents have to cough up £100 for a days 'pony care' day in the school holidays.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think we generally need a massive rethink when it comes to how we keep and manage horses in the present day.

The whole concept of a livery yard is built around housing horses in manner that is convenient to humans. Balance for the horse can be achieved but generally at much more cost for the YO and for the owner, as they seek to offset the consequences of a fundamental mismatch between what is easy for a human and what is right for a horse.

Fewer horses per acre either reduces the revenue stream or costs more in land. Balancing colic, laminitis and ulcer risks for horses who are made to be sedentary for a large proportion of their day takes more time. Working horses almost exclusively on artificial surfaces requires careful management of those surfaces in order not to cause long term issues.

I think the problem arises in that there are so many people who are just scraping by and affording their horses at an enormous stretch.

Sometimes that actually results in management choices that suit horses better where an owner opts for a field rented somewhere rather than a livery yard. Those horses probably a nicer life even if it is less convenient and has less facilities than the human would ideally choose. And before the responses are ‘my horse doesn’t like / won’t cope with being in a field’, I am talking about horses in general as a species, and not the odd exceptions.

The issue really is that sometimes keeping horses on a budget manifests in horses being kept in livery yards with yard owners under pressure to cut costs and keep yards full to the brim which results in suboptimal upkeep.

I think we, as horse owners, need to have a shift that if we have to make choices based on financial constraints, then the needs of the horse should be prioritised above those of the owner. If one can’t afford a good livery, with good turn out and good care, then the horse should be moved to somewhere where that can be achieved. Even if that means going without a school, or good hacking, or someone to feed in the mornings and evenings. If those are things we cannot live without, and we cannot achieve them at the same time as meeting the horse’s needs, then we should sell or pts.

I think we have to get a bit tougher with ourselves about whether we really do have the set up - the funds, the lifestyle, the time, the capability - to prioritise a horse being a horse before taking what we want from it.

 

[SEL]

I have a small yard of my own and I get letters weekly from developers who have got my details from land registry - I can absolutely see why people sell up because the £££ on offer makes more sense than the hassle of running a low profit business.

I say mine is my pension fund but I'd need to give up horses to sell it so no houses yet

ETA - no arena but 2 acres (ish) per horse so they live out. Couldn't have liveries because the land is too wet for more horses. Don't miss an outdoor arena but this winter I'd have loved an indoor

 

[dougpeg]

I think we all have different views on what defines excellent facilities. A lot of yards by me have excellent facilities for the owner. One even has a conveyor belt system for the muck heap . As nice as that is though I'd rather have less facilities and better turnout options for my horses. A few years ago, small group turnout in large fields was the norm, now tiny paddocks void of shelter is often all I can find. From a business perspective its probably more profitable as you can accommodate more horses. Not how I want to keep mine though.

 

[reynold]

We were discussing this this morning. I foresee that soon livery yards will need to be licensed as riding schools are. The country is financially broke and whatever flavour government comes in they will be looking for tax £s anywhere they can get them and similarly local councils.

Horse owning is perceived to be the province of the rich - so taxing us would be popular with the 'masses'. The onerous paperwork involved in that will add extra administration to the YO's day and part/full time administrative staff will be required - at extra cost.

I've had horses at livery and at home since 1980. My first horse was on full livery with exercise, grooming and tack cleaning included in the price. In 1980 I paid £170 per month for that, which would be about £940 today. However people with the average horse would not be prepared to pay that cost.

We came to the conclusion that most small livery yards would close - many for housing - and that the remaining people who could afford the REAL cost of keeping a horse at livery and giving the YO a decent wage would need to work full time. As such talented and reliable riders for these horses during the week would be at a premium and be able to pick and choose clients.

How many times on here are people looking for a rider, mid-week, for their horse?

 

[ycbm]

It is possible to run a professional livery on huge yards with economies of scale, but then when you have 250+ horses on site there are compromises in care. Turnout has to be very restricted for 6 months of the year, and over grazed for the other six months, and never rested, otherwise to have enough land horses would have to be walked up to a mile to get to be turned out and brought in and there simply isn't time for staff to do that even if the land was available. The yard I was on had walks of 500 metres and that was bad enough.

There are 2 profitable models there. DiY was not allowed because of the problems that causes. The other models were - full service, yard manager made a lot of money on extras like exercise, show prep and training. And - base service, yard manager orders feed and bedding, staff on minimum wage do beds, feed and turn out, no other services. All the yard managers are long term and seemed to be making good money, from the vehicles they drove.

As LG says, though, that's not optimal for most of the horses, or anywhere near it, though it's a truly wonderful place for the owners.

Fees now there are around £10k a year without any extras, which immediately puts it out of many people's reach. And this is far from the most expensive part of the country. And even then, the yard is already opposite a new housing development and if the land on the other side of the road is released for housing it will be worth many, many millions, and who could blame them if they sell up?

When you add in the increasing dangers of riding on roads, I'm afraid I do think we are heading back to a very polarised horse owning situation where, for the most part, rich people have smart horses full livery in great facilities and those lucky enough to live near off road riding have a cob in a paddock.
.

 

[FlyingCircus]

This is exactly why I'm desperately trying to get a place with some land. Annoyingly our sale fell through several times last year, so we're still on livery.

The plan/hope is to get a couple of acres and sell my soul to make a large all weather space with a run-in barn type situation. I might not be able to buy acres and acres (though there will be atleast an acre per horse), but I can make it so they're not standing in mud and rain 6+ months of the year.

 

[ihatework]

This is exactly why I'm desperately trying to get a place with some land. Annoyingly our sale fell through several times last year, so we're still on livery.

The plan/hope is to get a couple of acres and sell my soul to make a large all weather space with a run-in barn type situation. I might not be able to buy acres and acres (though there will be atleast an acre per horse), but I can make it so they're not standing in mud and rain 6+ months of the year.

It’s the route I’ve gone down too. Lucky to be in a position to though.

Means that although my competition ones are on livery in the typical individual paddock type set up (unfortunately the only option round here), at least it’s not 24/7/365. They can come ‘home’ for regular mini breaks!

 

[Abacus]

There are a few threads on the forum about yards closing and people having to find other accommodation for their horses often with a short notice period. This is a horrible situation for people to be in. Not only the horse owners but for some of the yard owners too. Maybe some have sold for house building and having done well financially but others will be closing because it just isn't economic. Some liveries are paying little, maybe helping the yo out in exchange for use of a field. All this leads me to think that maybe the time has come for places to charge more, provide excellent facilities all have contracts and get everything on a proper profitable business footing. Coffee and hobnobs for all who have got this far. What are people's thoughts?

I totally agree with the issues you’ve raised but the problem, as others have said, is that to keep horses to a decent standard (for them) is uneconomic especially compared with what else you could do with the money the land would cost. To charge enough would force at least half people out of horse ownership (which is realistic rather than wrong).

It seems to me that more people compete fairly seriously than they used to, and so want significant facilities, but probably aren’t able to pay for the massive difference between these type of yards and the ‘cob in a field’ kind of set up.

 

[equinerebel]

I am, once again, glad my horse is older and my last. I don't see a future for me in horse ownership anymore.

 

[reynold]

Said the same this morning. My WHW pony who is one of the non-ridden ones will be my last.

Even on the very good wage I used to earn in IT I would struggle these days to afford to keep a horse to the standard and horse/riding facilities I would want.

I certainly wouldn't want to have a horse of mine on one of these mega-sized livery 'factories' with staff who wouldn't notice a colic or an 'off colour' horse if they fell over it.

 

[AppyLover1996]

My livery comprises of herd turnout (regardless of weather, it is always owner's choice to keep horses in and it is never forced upon us - absolutely ADORE my yard owner and manager for this!), a stable, shared communal area for feed (each livery has their own little space with the option to have more/share with friends to increase space), shared communal area for rugs and other bits and bobs, and a shared communal tack room which is padlocked at all times with a number code padlock, keyed padlock and the code changes monthly. We have no indoor or outdoor school and have a small amount of roadwork to do before getting to some lovely off road tracks, the road is a fairly busy road but nearly every user is extremely considerate and the housing estate across from us are happy for us to cut through there to avoid the road if we want to. In the summer months we can use a designated schooling field for whatever we wish, and in winter it becomes the trash field, so if keeping in but need to exercise, we can do so without compromising our grazing. We share our livery with the yard owner and yard manager's small holding which comprises of some cattle, sheep and goats. In terms of fields, we are totally spoilt as although the grazing isn't tons of acreage like some larger livery yards, it is always maintained beautifully and any issues are dealt with promptly.

The above little patch of heaven as I call it, costs me £110 per month per horse and is a fully DIY yard although everyone there is so friendly, we often help each other out as favours (also saves having to panic about trying to find a good freelancer as they're always so booked up).

I compete for fun at local shows to support small local businesses and pony clubs but primarily I hack and do trick training/ natural horsemanship with my two (19 year old veteran and yearling).

My two current boys will more than likely be my last as I'm a full time working adult (40 hour a week in finance) which pays the bills but I'm mega lucky that I have my Mum on hand for sorting my boys out in the mornings and I live at home (my own personal choice) so my outgoings apart from the usual mobile, electricity etc are fairly minimal compared to those having to pay mortgages etc in a month.

I've heard of so many livery yards closing and people having to find new yards a lot more often in these past few years, and I have noticed that most yards which have all the facilities (indoor school, outdoor school, horse walker etc) seem to appeal more to the owners and for their convenience. When I had my 19 year old at a very large yard, he became the most fowl beast I've ever known, when I moved him back to a small local yard (which we are at), he had a complete personality change and went back to my sweet boy. That for me meant more than having endless facilities etc. I understand that some people get into the sport for the competitive side and therefore they need these facilities in order to train and progress, however for the non competitive horse owner, I feel these are more luxuries than necessities. Having all the facilities etc also means having to charge more by default to cover the extra outgoings etc (which is totally understandable!) however at the same time this also pushes equestrianism closer to a sport where if you have plenty of money you'll be fine, but for those of us who are equestrians more as a hobby/passion it pushes us out of the sport.

It's a very fine line about how much to charge and when - I don't envy my yard owner and yard manager at all - when they mentioned about a small price increase, I think I was the only person who didn't really mind about the increase (as previously mentioned I have very little outgoings), but my fellow liveries who have more outgoings than me were understandably more concerned about the potential implications. Luckily my yard owner and yard manager are awesome people who care very much about us liveries and try and keep everything as affordable as possible

 

[Celtic Jewel]

Here is my unpopular opinions .

1. I think there not enough young people starting there own livery yard . most livery yard owners are 60+ and if they have kids a lot of them aren’t interested in continuing to run the yard and will sell the yard when there parents get to old Or pass away. A lot of equestrian don’t have kids so they leave them to non equestrian people and they aren’t going to continue to run a yard . Which is leading to a lot of yard shutting down and when someone is getting older they might be more tempted to sell their yard for a lot of money .

2. Yards that are more expensive can’t compete people just go to a cheap yard or rent a field for every yard owner that has an expensive yard livery there is another one that charges half of the price way below average livery price . Most of them are large and have massive waiting lists have no problem with replacing people in matters of days . So leave the expensive livery yard are haft empty and can’t fill stables because nobody will pay. It’s literally happening in my area. Which also goes into another point most people who own horses aren’t rich I say 90 percentage of equestrian are on tight budgets and have a very average salary. I don’t think people who are genuinely rich would keep horses in a very average livery yard. Most keep them on pro riders yards or keep them at home and just pay people to look after their horses .

 

[ihatework]

Here is my unpopular opinions .

1. I think there not enough young people starting there own livery yard . most livery yard owners are 60+ and if they have kids a lot of them aren’t interested in continuing to run the yard and will sell the yard when there parents get to old Or pass away. A lot of equestrian don’t have kids so they leave them to non equestrian people and they aren’t going to continue to run a yard . Which is leading to a lot of yard shutting down and when someone is getting older they might be more tempted to sell their yard for a lot of money .

2. Yards that are more expensive can’t compete people just go to a cheap yard or rent a field for every yard owner that has an expensive yard livery there is another one that charges half of the price . Most of them are large and have massive waiting lists have no problem with replacing people in matters of days . So leave the expensive livery yard are haft empty and can’t fill stables because nobody will pay. It’s literally happening in my area. Which also goes into another point most people who own horses aren’t rich I say 90 percentage of equestrian are on tight budgets and have a very average salary. I don’t think people who are genuinely rich would keep horses in a very average livery yard. Most keep them on pro riders yards or keep them at home and just pay people to look after their horses .

I think your point 2 is spot on, which is what keeps your average hobby rider livery yard priced relatively cheap.

The problem is however when those big cheap yards say they have had enough. That’s a lot of horses to rehouse with owners who realistically cannot afford a more commercial rate.

There is a really Big Crunch point looming in this area. Next 10 years or so I predict an implosion.

 

[eggs]

I'm another who won't be getting another horse when my current lot (2 (20 and 23) retired and 2 (19 and 19) still in work) go even though I keep them at home.

I haven't been at a livery yard for over 20 years and it does seem to have radically changed since then.

 

[I'm Dun]

I think your point 2 is spot on, which is what keeps your average hobby rider livery yard priced relatively cheap.

The problem is however when those big cheap yards say they have had enough. That’s a lot of horses to rehouse with owners who realistically cannot afford a more commercial rate.

There is a really Big Crunch point looming in this area. Next 10 years or so I predict an implosion.

It doesnt seem to be happening so much in Oxford, but Northampton is experiencing the same. People cant fill stables for full livery and either close or go to assisted/DIY. I think its possibly a poorer area with lots of choice still.

 

[tda]

9 years ago I had to put one of my dogs with a home boarding lady it was £9/day, so £63/week. She did it from home, dogs slept in her garage.
Most DIY horse owners (in the north) would want a field, a stable and hay & straw supplied for that!
It's not rocket science

 

[Mrs B]

I am, once again, glad my horse is older and my last. I don't see a future for me in horse ownership anymore.

I'm in the same position, but far from glad about it.
I'm devastated at the thought.

 

[blitznbobs]

Land is 20k an acre in our area, a block of 16 stables about 150k so for 16 horses with an acre and a half each that works out at approximately 600k investment (without the fencing which would probably be about 30k initially ) … so cheap livery will become a thing of the past tbh … that’s about 350 per month per stable just to get a return on investment without taking in to account maintainance and stress factor …

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I think we generally need a massive rethink when it comes to how we keep and manage horses in the present day.

The whole concept of a livery yard is built around housing horses in manner that is convenient to humans. Balance for the horse can be achieved but generally at much more cost for the YO and for the owner, as they seek to offset the consequences of a fundamental mismatch between what is easy for a human and what is right for a horse.

Fewer horses per acre either reduces the revenue stream or costs more in land. Balancing colic, laminitis and ulcer risks for horses who are made to be sedentary for a large proportion of their day takes more time. Working horses almost exclusively on artificial surfaces requires careful management of those surfaces in order not to cause long term issues.

I think the problem arises in that there are so many people who are just scraping by and affording their horses at an enormous stretch.

Sometimes that actually results in management choices that suit horses better where an owner opts for a field rented somewhere rather than a livery yard. Those horses probably a nicer life even if it is less convenient and has less facilities than the human would ideally choose. And before the responses are ‘my horse doesn’t like / won’t cope with being in a field’, I am talking about horses in general as a species, and not the odd exceptions.

The issue really is that sometimes keeping horses on a budget manifests in horses being kept in livery yards with yard owners under pressure to cut costs and keep yards full to the brim which results in suboptimal upkeep.

I think we, as horse owners, need to have a shift that if we have to make choices based on financial constraints, then the needs of the horse should be prioritised above those of the owner. If one can’t afford a good livery, with good turn out and good care, then the horse should be moved to somewhere where that can be achieved. Even if that means going without a school, or good hacking, or someone to feed in the mornings and evenings. If those are things we cannot live without, and we cannot achieve them at the same time as meeting the horse’s needs, then we should sell or pts.

I think we have to get a bit tougher with ourselves about whether we really do have the set up - the funds, the lifestyle, the time, the capability - to prioritise a horse being a horse before taking what we want from it.

Plenty of people prioritise their horses wel-being but are reliant on what livery yards deem to provide which isn’t necessarily what they need or want.

This is a very sore point for me at the moment as my yard which I’ve been at for 14yrs is closing. It isn’t a straight financial reason because the owner absolutely isn’t poor and is probably the biggest landowner in the county. It’s the second yard he has closed recently.

My pre-requisites for what I am looking for is all year turn-out on good safe grazing, a stable, good hacking and within a doable distance from home especially if I have to go twice a day. A school is a bonus. I have two horses and have found one space which fits that criteria. I’m paying for that space to reserve it whilst still paying livery for two at current yard. My youngster had to have colic surgery just 5 weeks ago so my plan to possibly sell him have gone out the window. I’m hoping something else will come up at or very near that yard. Fortunately we have been given until end September to leave but those of us still struggling to find anywhere we’re in a constant state of high anxiety and just want to be settled somewhere. It’s those of us with two horses that can’t find anywhere and part-livery is too expensive and those spaces are also few and often provide sub-standard care.

1) it’s not up to liveries to set prices but we are not going to pay more at one yard if you can get the same for less at another. Just why would you?

2) Amongst my horsey peers all year turn out is a must preferably 24/7 at least 6 months of the year. That would come above a hot wash bay/ solarium/XCcourse/horse-walker - don’t need, don’t want and certainly don’t want to pay for.

3) I would actually pay more for better grazing / lower stocking rates because not only would my horses be happier but it saves money on forage and bedding and vets fees so it evens out anyway.

4) I don’t want to pay for sub-standard care I’d rather do it myself to a good standard.

5) Paying more doesn’t necessarily mean better welfare standards. My horse and I were the least happy at the most expensive yard (part-livery) I’ve been at. The best yards I’ve been on are a bit ramshackle or on a farm without an OCD yard owner or manager.

I don’t know what the answer is but no livery amount paid is ever going to be competition for what developers can pay for land.

 

[blitznbobs]

It’s a fallacy to assume because someone is wealthy that the reason is not financial… the cost of borrowing money has gone up and equally having money in the bank gives you a better return than it has in decades … so moving money from investment to savings can make sense for some very wealthy individuals … after all most wealthy people want to stay that way

 

[equinerebel]

I'm in the same position, but far from glad about it.
I'm devastated at the thought.

Not glad that my horse is older or that I won’t own one, but that I won’t be in the position I think a lot of people will be. I can’t imagine the stress and worry.

 

[Fire sign]

It is possible to run a professional livery on huge yards with economies of scale, but then when you have 250+ horses on site there are compromises in care. Turnout has to be very restricted for 6 months of the year, and over grazed for the other six months, and never rested, otherwise to have enough land horses would have to be walked up to a mile to get to be turned out and brought in and there simply isn't time for staff to do that even if the land was available. The yard I was on had walks of 500 metres and that was bad enough.

There are 2 profitable models there. DiY was not allowed because of the problems that causes. The other models were - full service, yard manager made a lot of money on extras like exercise, show prep and training. And - base service, yard manager orders feed and bedding, staff on minimum wage do beds, feed and turn out, no other services. All the yard managers are long term and seemed to be making good money, from the vehicles they drove.

As LG says, though, that's not optimal for most of the horses, or anywhere near it, though it's a truly wonderful place for the owners.

Fees now there are around £10k a year without any extras, which immediately puts it out of many people's reach. And this is far from the most expensive part of the country. And even then, the yard is already opposite a new housing development and if the land on the other side of the road is released for housing it will be worth many, many millions, and who could blame them if they sell up?

When you add in the increasing dangers of riding on roads, I'm afraid I do think we are heading back to a very polarised horse owning situation where, for the most part, rich people have smart horses full livery in great facilities and those lucky enough to live near off road riding have a cob in a paddock.
.

Is that Somerford YCBM ? It seems so busy on there … how did you find it ?

 

[ycbm]

Is that Somerford YCBM ? It seems so busy on there … how did you find it ?

For owners it's one massive playground.
.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

It’s a fallacy to assume because someone is wealthy that the reason is not financial… the cost of borrowing money has gone up and equally having money in the bank gives you a better return than it has in decades … so moving money from investment to savings can make sense for some very wealthy individuals … after all most wealthy people want to stay that way

I said it’s not straight financial reasons not that finance has nothing to do with it. You don’t know the circumstances so it’s just conjecture on your part.

 

[teapot]

I've always said and thought the industry's biggest own goal is the lack of business management but the BHS told me I was too business minded post a job interview so... I think back to the pleas from yards, especially riding schools, four weeks into the first lockdown where they couldn't afford feed. That just shouldn't happen imho.

The sole reason the centre I was managing survived Covid, and continues to do well, was because of the business and finance set up, so it can be done!

 

[ycbm]

I certainly wouldn't want to have a horse of mine on one of these mega-sized livery 'factories' with staff who wouldn't notice a colic or an 'off colour' horse if they fell over it.

Just to clarify I wasn't talking about one of those yards. The yard I was on had about 250 permanent stables but these were split between 7 different yard managers, each running a "normal sized business. Another big centre localy had two separate livery businesses last time I enquired. I think that's a fairly typical US model for the big centres too.
.

 

[Mrs B]

Not glad that my horse is older or that I won’t own one, but that I won’t be in the position I think a lot of people will be. I can’t imagine the stress and worry.

Understood.

I just think it's sad that costs have become so huge - not DIY livery in my case (yet!) but all the associated costs of buying ... ... and keeping a horse so that it always has good turnout, deep bedding, quality forage, vet attention, saddle fitting and farriers and EDTs and physio and insurance and and and ... combined has now meant that it will be out of most people's reach to own a horse. Mine certainly.

On the buying front, my gorgeous, 15.1hh, all-rounder boy was £3,800 ten years ago, aged 10, with tack.

He'd now be about 12 to 15k. My income has barely moved as a freelance in that time, let alone kept up with that kind of inflation.

I totally realise the costs involved in breeding, keeping, and breaking a horse - I really do!

But I am still sad that all the love, experience and dedication I have for keeping horses will not allow me to keep and care for one in future.

 

[skint1]

I grew up in a coastal town not far from NYC, my house was old but behind it were newer ones, we had an old barn in our yard and my dad used it as a workshop. I found out recently the barn and land behind had been a livery yard until the mid 60s. By time I came along in the 70s and being a teen in the 80s you would never have known (I didn't) and there were no horses anywhere. Horses were for rich people, and we were not rich, my parents got me the odd lesson but we had to drive an hour out to get an affordable place. When I came to England with my mother in the 80s I was delighted to discover how affordable horses were, lessons, DIY etc. How wonderful it was to be able to give my child the gift of horses and riding. I think now in many places it's going the way of my hometown, and that makes me very sad. I have been lucky to own horses for the last 25 years, when I started out there were many decent DIY yards to choose from, with good fencing, not over stocked, nice hacking etc. Decent DIY is increasingly hard to find in my area. I get it, money needs to be made, and running a yard isn't easy. I have also noticed on Facebook and online generally the attitude to DIY liveries- YOs seem so down on us, thinking that we are all lazy, ignorant, flighty and worse. I consider myself so fortunate to have had the opportunity to have horses in my life, and to have been on the yards I've been on, I have loved every minute- but I am realistic I am getting older, the weather is getting more extreme, good DIY yards getting harder to find, finding a decent, sound horse even for decent money seems a challenge in itself, so right now unless all the stars align, my beautiful girl will be my last.