Discussion on crossing two breeds purposely

Ravenwood

Ravenwood

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 November 2005
Messages
11,196
Location
Devon
Visit site
Further to the post below about Springadors it got me thinking (probably not a good thing
blush.gif
)

Some of you expressed a dislike to this practise and in some ways I can see your point - however, I really do feel that with such huge inherant diseases within pedigree dogs nowadays which isn't usually apparent in a cross breed - perhaps its a good thing to get some outside blood into your everyday general family/pet/working dogs.

I have to speak from experience - my extremely well bred lab has OCD in both elbows which is genetically inherited. Its all very well having hip and eye tests but more and more labs are being bred with elbow problems and I think the Elbow test should be much more publicised and requested. I certainly wouldn't buy another lab unless both parents had been elbow tested - its stressful, upsetting and a bloody shame on the poor dog to have to go through what Toby and I have been through
frown.gif


Phew - I can ramble on sometimes!!

Buts lets also remember that most breeds - lets take the JRT for example, was produced by crossing other pedigree dogs which you would have to do to create a breed in the first place! If Parson Jack Russell was barraged with insults for crossing two perfectly good breeds back then - we wouldn't have the JRT now (to put it simply!)

I would be perfectly happy to purchase and own a Springador (again going from my own personal perspective) as I am pretty sure I would have a very healthy, biddable working dog.

There are lots of lucher owners on here - aren't they mongrels from other breeds too?

So what do you think - why are you against crossing two breeds?
 
I am not against the principle of crossing 2 breeds, I think it was probably Guide Dogs for the blind who first started breeding labradoodles, for a purpose, to try and achieve guide dogs for allergy sufferers. Of course this is not foolproof as the resulting pups may have the moulting coat of the labrador. My beef, and I expect that of many others, is the fact that such crosses seem to be just produced for the sake of it now, and more to the point the resulting puppies are sold for ridiculous prices.
If both parents are pedigree dogs albeit different breeds there is also a chance that you may just be introducing more problems. Prospective purchasers should still do their research into breed problems, for both parents breeds.
My neighbours have recently taken on a lovely Springador. She was 10 months old and her previous owners couldn't cope with her, why, because they hoped they would get a Springer size dog with the laid back lab temperament. They got what they wanted in looks, she is jsut like a smaller, finer black labrador, unfortunately for them she also has the keenness to work etc of a Springer and was not suited to their lifestyle. Every time they let her off lead she went off hunting so they never took her out
frown.gif
Luckily with a bit of work my neighbours have now got a lovely little dog, but it could have been a different story.
Sorry rambled on a bit there, but hope you get my drift.
 
Im not really against the x'ing of 2 breeds.....Im just against breeding
smirk.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif

On a serious note, I really do not see the need, unless they were bred for a purpose(working) for example, not because they caught by accident or the owner was irresponsible, or wanted to make a quick buck, or did not want to neuter but saw no crime in letting it get caught over and over again by anything on four legs)that is not aimed at the springador post) jsut the sceanrios I often deal with,
crazy.gif
or they will bring a designer x price tag, I only own dogs, because they are rescues
grin.gif
, otherwise I would not because I would never willingly buy one.
2 crosses can still carry a bad gene from which ever dog.

Another reason I don't like the crossing of breeds willy nilly, is that a prospective owner can not be sure what it will look like in most cases, they will just buy the puppy on cuteness alone, then when it grows into a monstrosity, they(commonly) get rid, atleast with a pedigree u know exactly what it's going to look like.
Also if 2 brees are x'ed how can health tests be carried out effectivly, I know what u are saying re our lab/springer, but like u said, next time u get one from tested parents, u could still buy a sprocker who's mother suffered ocd/epilepsy/heart problems, and it could still be passed on, as they are all hereditary.
 
Ii have just had a look at the orginal thread re springadors which I had not read before. The pics of the 2 different springadors on there are very good example of people not knowing what they will get with these "designer " breeds. You could in a way say they are the same "breed" i.e. springador yet they are totally different. Incidentally Seaviews pooch is a dead ringer for my neighbours little springador.
 
My view is that often little or no checks are done on cross breeds, they are often bred due to the bitch being caught with little or no thought going to the parents.

Cross breed doesn't garentee issue free. I'll list all the family dogs for comparison. Draw your own conclusions.

1st family dogs when I was 8 - Springer X? (Pedigree bitch go out and was mated by something black). We had two from the litter one was a great family dog but was epilectic (died aged 14yrs), his brother was hyper/nervous agressive and fortunately was run over and killed chasing a deer (aged 1) as I fear he may have been PTS as was getting increasingly unpredictable.

Next Lab (unregistered, but known parents) - Trained to a gun by my teenage brother, great temp and no health issues. Now 14 still going strong.

Dad's Lab (unregistered, but known parents) - Born with congenital defects over shot jaw and twisted front limbs. Great temp and fab companion, still going strong 12yrs on.

My JRT (known parents) - Great temp, but epilectic. 7yrs now.

Brothers ESS (unregistered, but known parents) - Great temp. No health issues. 7yrs now.
 
The first thing that springs to my mind from the replies is "irresponsible owner"!

If someone is out to buy a pup for a family pet - are they that concerned with what it will look like? Surely if that were the case then they would buy a standard show breed? It must be so obvious that if you buy a mongrel its a lottery on how it will turn out.

And the same applies to temperament - I can only think again, irresponsible owner who buys a pup that is half springer but expect it to have the temperament of a lab - why didn't they just buy a lab? (there are lots of small ones bred now).

I completely agree that people who breed indescriminately are very morally wrong and I have to say that the price tag a labradoodle fetches astounds me! But I am still not against someone breeding a good dog purposely with another of a different breed for a purpose.
 
I don't know what conclusions to draw from that list of dogs PS.

All the traits you list (both health and temperament) could come from pedigree dogs too
confused.gif
 
Oh well done STR - you put it so simply!
smile.gif


We seem to get so hung up with the fact that if the dog isn't registered with the KC then it shouldn't have been bred
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what conclusions to draw from that list of dogs PS.

All the traits you list (both health and temperament) could come from pedigree dogs too
confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

That was sort of my point. People often think that crossing means no health/temp issue which IMO is not true. Guess I'm saying no garentees (either way). STR put it much better!
smile.gif
 
I know how you feel re: elbows. Even though Stella's eye loss was an accidental blow to the side of the head, I can't help but wonder if a longer snout would have resulted in a different outcome
frown.gif


The city boasts every colour and complement of dog, and it seems like health is a real crapshoot. My friend's Boston is 14-years-old and still walks four miles a day. She's never been ill a single day in her life, and you know what? She was rescued from a notorious Pennsylvania puppy mill. My neighbour's BT, on the other hand--bought at a pet store, and likely also from a puppy mill--has dry eye, epilepsy, and a luxating patella.

And I don't think crossing two breeds automatically makes a dog healthier. Crossing two genetically-tested hardy examples of two different breeds, yes, but I get the impression that the people breeding hybrids ethically are in a teensy minority.
 
Wow, I feel like I've come "home" on this topic. I'm a professional dog groomer and I can't tell you how many times I see dogs with health issues, bad temperaments, skin disorders, etc and the owners will ask if I know of a stud they can put her to or a bitch for their boy. Even if I did, I would deny all knowledge...

I have a couple who bring in two CKCS who scream constantly, have wonky back legs (both!) and the bitch has horrible skin - and guess what, they mated them, sold all but one pup to keep for themselves.

And I also groom lots and lots of cross breed designer dogs with so many of the same problems. I think a lot of it comes down to greed, irresponsibility and plain old ignorance. People think that breeding dogs is a good money spinner. Then when they realise that it costs money...well, don't want to spend THAT!

I think the concept of labradoodles at the onset was a good one. However, I too find myself rather agrieved at the type of pricetag they currently have. If the price reflected health checks and test were done and the best quality dam/sires were used, then I wouldn't ever begrudge it.

My grooming mentor has been a judge/breeder of mainly gun dogs and poodles for nearly 30 years. She's always done all the tests etc and has produced great quality dogs for both family and show ring. She tells me that her poodles, for example, get about 1/2 of what a labradoodle does in terms of price.
confused.gif
 
As always the real looser from all these fads and fashions are the dogs!

It is a myth that cross breds do not have problems, especially where dominant genes are concerned. Crossing two purebreds from different breeds simply mixes genetic problems and if bred on from to try and form a new designer breed then that breed will have two lots of problems waiting to happen as to fix the type inbreeding will take place and hey presto problems amplyfy.

However carefull outcrossing might be a consideration for some breeds with despirate problems, but how do you police careful!

There are too many dogs out there being bred from for no good reason other than the cash. Be it crossbreds or purebreds. But I blame those ready to pay stupid amounts to have a cute and cuddly puppy, they are feeding poor and iresponsible breeding when there are loads of older dogs out there despirate for a kind a loving home. THEY ARE JUST NOT CUTE AND CUDDLY ANYMORE thats their only sin - well except for those that have behaviour problems from their "loving owners" who purchased an unsuitable puppy and then lost interest or couldn't handle it when it grew up.

Sorry am totally with Cala on this one and the only dogs I have ever had are adults in need of rehoming, problems and all.
 
Im definately not against crossing breeds and am looking for a cross breed myself at the mo but Im against people breeding from (not just dogs horses aswell here) that are not a good conformed, (not totally sure thats a word) healthy animals. If you dog is a nice looking, good temperamented, and heathly then I dont see a problem so long as you pick a suitable mate. If its got defects then I dont see the point as the chances are the defects will come through on the offspring. This doesnt matter wether your cross breeding or pure breeding surely the rules should be the same.
 
SRT sorry was only skim reading and missed your post as you managed to say what I was aiming at in a lot less words which prob mad moer sense.
 
QR
Have only skim read, so apologies if this has been said before, or better.
grin.gif


No issue's at all with cross bred dogs, however what I cannot abide is "Designer Breeds" - I have nothing against LabXPoodles, however I can't stand "Labradoodles" that cost more than a Lab which HAS been Hip/Elbow/Eye scored. When they were "fashionable" they were selling for around £1000 each!!!
crazy.gif


Also I think there are Breeders who put alot of effort into producing healthy stock, reseaching the lines, knowing possible genetic defects, etc etc (The Person who bred our IWS had EVERY pup tested for a Pancreatic diesease AFTER she had sold them, because one of the litter was diagnosed with the disease).

These breeders could be breeding cross-breds or pedigree dogs, it wouldn't matter to me! But I think the people that think "Oh our bitch is pretty, lets have puppies!" or "We've got a Cocker Spaniel, I've heard Cockerpoos are the latest trend, lets breed a litter!", make a mockery of the people that do put the hard work, money and time into breeding good stock.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Another reason I don't like the crossing of breeds willy nilly, is that a prospective owner can not be sure what it will look like in most cases, they will just buy the puppy on cuteness alone, then when it grows into a monstrosity, they(commonly) get rid, atleast with a pedigree u know exactly what it's going to look like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what happened with Popple. I fell for her cute puppy pictures
frown.gif
and look at what a monstrosity she's grown into!!
shocked.gif
shocked.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Have only skim read, so apologies if this has been said before, or better.
grin.gif


No issue's at all with cross bred dogs, however what I cannot abide is "Designer Breeds" - I have nothing against LabXPoodles, however I can't stand "Labradoodles" that cost more than a Lab which HAS been Hip/Elbow/Eye scored. When they were "fashionable" they were selling for around £1000 each!!!
crazy.gif


Also I think there are Breeders who put alot of effort into producing healthy stock, reseaching the lines, knowing possible genetic defects, etc etc (The Person who bred our IWS had EVERY pup tested for a Pancreatic diesease AFTER she had sold them, because one of the litter was diagnosed with the disease).

These breeders could be breeding cross-breds or pedigree dogs, it wouldn't matter to me! But I think the people that think "Oh our bitch is pretty, lets have puppies!" or "We've got a Cocker Spaniel, I've heard Cockerpoos are the latest trend, lets breed a litter!", make a mockery of the people that do put the hard work, money and time into breeding good stock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldnt agree more with you on this Henmeister - a prime example is the bloke I work with who is a puppy farmer in his spare time
mad.gif
mad.gif
mad.gif
, who deliberately breeds these "designer" crosses and charges ridiculous amounts of money for them
mad.gif
He has been caught out big time with his latest litter which - surprise surprise with the economic situation - he now cannot sell and is giving away
crazy.gif


Lurchers are an interesting example of mongrels/crossbreds because quite frankly people cross the most peculiar breeds with a greyhound and call it a lurcher, again because it is "fashionable"
crazy.gif
crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Some of you expressed a dislike to this practise and in some ways I can see your point - however, I really do feel that with such huge inherant diseases within pedigree dogs nowadays which isn't usually apparent in a cross breed - perhaps its a good thing to get some outside blood into your everyday general family/pet/working dogs.

I have to speak from experience - my extremely well bred lab has OCD in both elbows which is genetically inherited. Its all very well having hip and eye tests but more and more labs are being bred with elbow problems and I think the Elbow test should be much more publicised and requested. I certainly wouldn't buy another lab unless both parents had been elbow tested - its stressful, upsetting and a bloody shame on the poor dog to have to go through what Toby and I have been through
frown.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you Ravenwood.

The "designer" crossing of breeds and crazy price tags that comes them I don't like. However, a sensible cross because it makes a good, proven result I don't see a problem with (such as springer x lab).

I would NEVER own a pure bred lab, despite them having many of the characteristics I'd look for, but for the same reasons you have mentioned - and your story is one I've heard far too many times before
frown.gif


When I went looking for Popple I went looking for a cross breed - and not just to save money. I saw her mother, half brother and grandmother (age about 13) who were all lovely, working spaniels and free of health problems and clearly with good temperaments. I also met her father - a real working patterdale; they were all well integrated and good with children. They'd had a litter previously of the combination which had all been very swiftly homed with terrific feeedback.

I was also made to promise that any problems, for whatever reason, then I returned her to them, NOT a rescue place. Sure, Popple hasn't turn out *quite* what I imagined. (I am still a little confused as to why she's soooo small and short in the legs - even more so than a patterdale
confused.gif
grin.gif
) but she is perfect to me; better than I could have ever imagined, I get comments from people who think the same, daily.
laugh.gif


I already have 5 definite, secure homes (names picked out, the lot
blush.gif
) wanting her puppies and she won't even be old enough for another year.... I'm sure people will disapprove of me breeding from her, but if I've secure homes/prepared to take any back/not doing it to make money I think I'm more responsible than a vast number of breeders.
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Im not really against the x'ing of 2 breeds.....Im just against breeding
smirk.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Likewise, totally against breeding for profit and these new designer dogs are just another way to tap into the market by charging huge sums for crossbreeds. Much better to keep the breeds true but breed out the physical imperfections rather than concentrate on carriage of tail and width of head
frown.gif


Lurchers were originally bred for a specific purpose which can't be said of a Dorgi or a Cockerpoo (or whatever other rubbish names they come up with
crazy.gif
) and yes there are loads of lurcher owners on here but I'll bet anything 99% of them were rescued after being dumped as unwanted so even though I love them as dogs I'd still rather see less of them being born.
 
[ QUOTE ]
When I went looking for Popple I went looking for a cross breed - and not just to save money. I saw her mother, half brother and grandmother (age about 13) who were all lovely, working spaniels and free of health problems and clearly with good temperaments. I also met her father - a real working patterdale; they were all well integrated and good with children. They'd had a litter previously of the combination which had all been very swiftly homed with terrific feeedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just using this as an example, and I am aware there are many others, I am not quite sure why Popple being a crossbred has any relevance to the above Puppy? I could tell you of a breeder of pure bred CKCS who have all the above + points for the past 15-20 generations, all dogs who have been known to me personally - so it really isnt relevant whether it is a cross breed or a pure bred, surely it is the fact that you get your dog from a reputable and responsible breeder which counts?
smile.gif
smile.gif
 
Sorry, my point was that her parents were good examples of their own breeds and worth breeding from as pure breds (which they had done, and I saw the evidence
smile.gif
) prior to them then breeding Popple's litter.
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any problems with crossbreds or purebreds, but I'd like people to assess whether their bitch, and the dog they chose, are a good match and healthy breeding stock.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! Basically the point that STR made much better than I did
grin.gif
 
Ok - people have already expressed similar opinions to mine on this - but one thing really strikes me about dog breeding... It seems complately confined to dogs... If you get a cat - most people generally get a moggy. No-one comments if people breed their own cats an sell kittens - there are no comments like 'shouldn't breed non pedigreee cats etc etc.' and the same - could be said to some extend for horses... whilst alot of people do breed for conformation/ temp - some just breed any old mare (never mind conformation etc.) and people rarely seem to comment on this...

I just find this odd... in an ideal world - you would only breed any animals that were healthy, have good confirmation (ie. no wonky legs etc.) and where you knew there was a need for the animals..
 
I'm pretty sure if you went to the Breeding forum and said you were going to breed "any old mare" just for the sake of having a foal you'd hear PLENTY about it.
wink.gif


And I do think people comment about people letting their cats breed indiscriminately (let's face it, cats hardly need human help to make more cats) because the rescues are full to bursting with the outcome of such "decisions". I'm sure if you went on a cat forum and asked the same question posted here you would get a pretty heated response too.

The problem is everyone always says they have a plan and the animals are wanted and will be cared for . . . so what are all those dogs (cats, even horses) doing in rescues?? Or worse? I think anyone involved in animals seriously sees so many horror stories they become leery of ANYONE breeding animals without a specific purpose in mind. Of course bad things happen to pedigreed animals, too (and I have two rescue lurchers so obviously not supporting the pedigree dog industry here) but - zipping up my flame suit - I think many people wonder why anyone "needs" to make more dogs.
 
Ditto the above, I have also has a few cat breeding discussions in the Soap box, I was polite with it
smirk.gif
sort of
grin.gif

also strongly disagree and rant daily in regard to cat breeding as much as dog breeding
smirk.gif
 
I agree with what you say Tarrsteps
grin.gif


But I have noticed that alot of indescrimate breeding of animals happens... and I notice people get more animated about dogs... where others are sort of ignored... Am glad people int he breeding forum would agree with that - is certainly not what I normally experience, maybe is just me but people do seem more blase about horse breeding than dog... (I know a horse that was bred from a mare with the worst legs I've ever seen... inexplicable really - but no-one that knows this ever comments on it.) Maybe is just the circles I move in...

I was kind of saying I wish people would apply this to all animals - and stop the needless breeding of any animals...
 
im affraid im a terrible owner of a crossbred puppy, she wasnt what we wanted and we would have prefered to have rescued one but as we wanted a small dog we couldnt find any in rescue centers and we simply fell in love with her. yes we spent more than we wanted to and yes im pretty sure that that was the only reason she was bred but she is lovely. no were not sure what she will look like when she is a big girl. but we will love her to bits!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top