Distances in combinations, let's get technical...

[kerilli]

Right, the Tim Stockdale lect/demo got me thinking. He put lots of emphasis on the stride length always being uniform, on a horse of any size getting used to the 12' distance, because that is what course designers use etc etc.
Sooo... I was taught that you alter the distances slightly at home, and especially with a green/learning horse, according to size of fences and whether it's a spread to an upright or vice-versa. (e.g. slightly longer distance between the elements if it's a spread in, because horse will land further in from that.)
So, the distance between, say, a 3'3" parallel to an upright would be longer than if it was the other way around.
And, at home, the distance I'd build between a double at 3'" would be shorter than between the same fences put up to, say, 4'3".
BUT
I got the impression from Tim that he would probably (and unfortunately we weren't allowed to shout out questions, or I'd have asked for clarification) have kept the distances the same all the time, so the horse's stride stayed uniform, and when the fences got bigger, it would have just been a bit closer and made more effort...
but, if the distances are therefore long with smaller fences, isn't this teaching a young horse to take off from further away and to have a flatter trajectory?
So:
Do you do a set distance at home, always, or do you vary it according to size of fences, or what type of fences they are?
Please help clear my confusion! Thankyou.

 

[TarrSteps]

But distances in the ring aren't "standard" in that way, designers do adjust them depending on the situation. (I used to have a table of all the FEI "recommended" distances, vertical to vertical, oxer to oxer, oxer to vertical etc. so worth a search on line.)

I think what he's saying is you build for a 12 foot stride (with adjustments for fence height, spread etc) from the start so horses and riders get used to it. I'm sure he would pull it in for a young horse (although he probably wouldn't keep a horse that continued to struggle with the striding because it's likely not going to be a top prospect) the first couple of times and no doubt would adjust distances for grids, schooling purposes etc.

I think he's got a point. It's quite common for people to build a bit short at home, or not even really jump related distances, then struggle in the ring.

(Bias alert. This is a much bigger deal in North America because show hunter courses are built on specific striding - smaller for ponies, slightly pulled out as the fences go up but basically 12' every time - and part of the test is to make any adjustments invisible. So lots of time is spent teaching horses and riders to go on 12' striding as a default.)

 

[KatB]

If I'm jumping smaller fences, I normally jump with lots of poles on the floor anyway, so babies get a pole to a fence, so they still get a "close" take off point anyway (unless you get a bold one who clears the whole lot )

If you ride a combination at a competition, regardless of the height, the length of the combinations is always based on 8yrds for a one stride combination, 12 for 2, etc etc... so I guess the horse has to get used to that although still be adjustable if you've got a big oxer to an upright, as that would ride shorter?!

If you are working on something specifically at home, and your not in the TS league so can't use larger fences to improve technique, then building them shorter I guess would be acceptable as long as it's not what the horse gets used to, as you would then be creating a new problem.

 

[Saratoga]

I always vary distances, because that is what they'll come across in a course. Take for example the SJ course i jumped at the weekend. The final line was a one stride double on 8 yds (standard), parallel in and upright out, but then on a related to a set of planks set on 22 yds. I saw lots of combinations going down it on 4 and flattening and having the planks down, and again a lot of combinations going down it on 5 and getting too close and having awkward jumps or going through the planks.

If we always trained a horse to have an exact stride length, how would they be able to alter to something like this?

My horse is a big rangy horse who has always been too forward to fences and flattened, so we have done a lot of work with him jumping through tight distances to get him to learn to shorten his frame without me having to fight him about it (one stride distances set on 6.5/7 yds for example). He is learning how to shorten (slowly but we're getting there!), so although it was tight for him at the weekend i had no worries in riding the distance on 5 and know he wouldn't panic about being short to the final element.

 

[AutumnRose]

I try and build full up distances at home because B has struggled with making up distance in combinations. To begin with in his education we built shorter so that he became confident in combinations, and believed he could make the second part. We then moved them out gradually as well as using poles on the floor in various exercises to make sure he was making up the ground.
This is paying off and he will now, mostly make up the distance easily.
My mare used to make up way way too much ground in combinations and we spent a lot of time on grid work and shorted distances in relateds etc to teach her to sit on her bum.

In non-specific cases i have always been taught to build slightly short at home but have never changed things depending on type of fence unless working on a specific problem.

 

[TarrSteps]

It's not about jumping always on one stride length, it is actually about adjustability. So if 12' is the "default" and the rider and horse know what that feels like, then the rider knows how to adjust for something different. Obviously the individual horse would reflect whether or not the rider choses to add or move up as a first choice but really, any horse jumping in its comfort zone should be able to do either on command, depending on what comes next etc.

Do they really just build BS on one length for all related distances regardless of fences construction, height etc? Then why would anyone ever walk a course?

 

[Saratoga]

Do they really just build BS on one length for all related distances regardless of fences construction, height etc? Then why would anyone ever walk a course?

IME very rarely! Half distances, or distances a yd short or long are very common.

 

[KatB]

They're always "based" on the same distances Sorry, I was being non specific and not really making sense as am typing whilst at work!!

A course builder will build around a horse having 12ft stride. As you say, adjustability is the key, as although 1/2/3 stride distances will be pretty standard, anything above that can be built slightly short or slightly longer. Also, different lines may give you slightly different distances.

However, if your horse can't make the 12ft standard distance, which is the "standard" distance around courses in the first place, they are going to struggle, unless the whole course is designed around a shorted distance?!
They are always going to be "adjusting" to be striding longer just to meet the standard, so therefore if anything is built to ride slightly longer, or a combination with a large oxer out, they are going to struggle.

Therefore, obviously you should be teaching horses to be adjustable, but I would always aim to jump combinations at home on a standard distance. Grids etc can be used to help with the adjustablility, but schooling over courses etc should always work with "true" combination distances IMO?!

Sorry, I'm not getting myself across very well

 

[Baydale]

I'm now being taught that if you can add a stride in a related distance then you will always be able to go on the "normal" stride and do that well - I understand that as being a method for learning how to contain power therefore making the horse make a good shape over a fence. If you only ever rode a 20yd related distance on four strides you wouldn't develop the adjustablity, nor rideability, that you'd need when there was a tricky distance, nor would you teach the horse to make a good shape.

TS, I think what KatB is saying about distances always being the same is referring to combinations, not related distances. Over smaller fences, say 90cm-1m, those regular distances in a combo would feel very long on any horse, I'd think, so I'd always shorten them by a yard or two. I doubt Tim Stockdale ever jumps anything round a track of 1m, do you?

 

[dieseldog]

(e.g. slightly longer distance between the elements if it's a spread in, because horse will land further in from that.)

It is actually the other way around. Horses land closer after jumping a spread. It is all to do with where the centre of a fence is. If you think of a horse making an arc over a fence with the top of the arc being in the centre of the fence. With a spread the top would be halfway between the 2 poles, with an upright it is directly over the pole. Horses therfore land further away from an upright than they would a spread.

You aren't talking about a massive difference, just half the width of the spread.

I have got some illustrations that demonstrate this at home.

 

[kerilli]

Really dieseldog? Oh dear, I think I must have seen more flyers to big parallels than I realised, then, because I'm 99.9% positive that my horses usually land further in after a spread! I can see what you mean though. Hmm.
I think KatB's wrong, combinations at BS and BE are not always 8 yards. (well, unless they've changed in the year or so since I've been away!)
I did a BE novice years ago which had the final downhill treble as a pretty long distance to the 2nd element, then a very short distance to the third element. Loads of horses had the third part down. I'd walked it really carefully (18hh wb to waggon around) and managed, somehow, to get him through clear. If I'd ridden it as "2 perfect distances based on a 12' stride" there's no way he'd have cleared it.
TS, that makes perfect sense, thankyou. I think I'm overthinking it. (Moi?)
Thanks BD, that's what I thought.

 

[siennamum]

I have an old fashioned SJ trainer and he focussed first of all on opening the canter out (in the case of my mare) to a proper SJ Canter. He bemoans some local course builders who build for eventers as the distances aren't correct for true SJ. Certainly, my horse is always having to work at regular stride lengths which start out really tough, then get easier as you start really riding forward.
He is absolutely implacable about distances, they have to be precise and related every time.

 

[millitiger]

i don't always set distances at a 12yd stride.

Pilfer used to struggle to make the distance in doubles so we actually made it slightly longer for him so i could really push him through (very careful so you could press right to the fence).
i used to work him on 8.25 or 8.5 of my strides instead of standard 8 and it worked a treat as he got to the comps and found the striding just right.

Millie makes up a huge amount of distance in related distances so we set them short for her- doubles can be put as short as 6.5 of my strides so teach her to back herself off the 2nd element naturally.
has worked really well and she has jumped doubles really well at comps this year.

however, i am lucky that we have a full sj set on grass at home so when i set a proper course out there i set 'true competition' striding and do my 'special' striding in the arena down grids etc.

 

[KatB]

Right, I am going to symplify and write my thought process I said they are always BASED on an 8yard distance. Therefore, a one stride distance is only ever going to be out by a yard one way or another.

Over 3 strides, you can start to get half stride distances, as mentioned by saratoga.

However, if you haven't educated your horse to make a standard distance based on a 12ft stride, you are going to have to "adjust" to make a standard distance, therefore you will struggle when they get more complicated, eg half strides, longer distances, shorter distances etc.

I think of things as "training and education", and "competition prep". I know they are basically the same, but the difference is in my mind:

Training is teaching the horse things to make them more rideable, adjustable and able to "deal" with different things.

Competition prep is doing the same as what they would see at a competition. This is schooling around courses, doing jump off turns, etc etc. So the kind of "test" to whether your training is on the right lines and whether a horse is ready to go out competing and putting it into practise.

The training side, you work on first of all getting your horse to have the 12ft stride as their "standard" stride length. this makes all the "basic" stuff easy. You would then work on making the canter adjustable, so shortening, lengthening etc. Basically teaching them to be rideable so you have tools for every eventuality. This can be building grids on shorter/longer distances depending on what you need to work on to get the horse to be able to take and deal with a "standard" distance, and be athletic enough to cope with being closer to a fence/further away etc.

The schooling over combinations etc at home, I would always base on the "standard" distances. This is because that is the "Norm" at competitions, and if your horse can't deal with that, IMO they probably aren't ready to start playing with shorter/longer distances.

Grids are different IMO as they very rarely have the same size fence in as you do out, so therefore you are asking the horse to "pop" in and will adjust the distance accordingly. They are your tools to teach your horse to be able to be adjustable, based around the standard being a 12ft stride....

 

[Navalgem]

I wa sat a Susie Gibson clinic and she had 2 horses (more advanced say competing up to 1.10) coming down a line of two verticals both at 1m, she asked the riders to ride the distance on 4 strides, then 5, she didn't alter a thing ie height of fence or distance.

What I'm saying is that I think Tim is right in that is important for the horse to have a regular, natural rhythm on 12 strides but I think that it is also important to practise related distances too. I have tried Suzies method and it's helped enormously with riding distances in the ring, even at BN level, I've found that most are either short or long, of three distances i rode recently, one was short, one long and one even, though that was in a Discovery, in the BN i think there was a short and 2 evens. Though I have seen longer distances in Bn, I usually try and add a stride and get the horse to use itself more, rather than press and risk them flattening.

 

[deskbound]

Interesting post. Just to throw one more variable into the mix, sometimes build distance relates to technique training too -- by way of eg, as a pre-comp warm up to get up in the air properly, jumping through a 2 stride double which is on 11 (RT 12) with square gappy parallels. Horse not allowed to waiver & find more space, you just all work that bit harder & encourages sharp front ends, which I like XC

 

[Birker2020]

Right, the Tim Stockdale lect/demo got me thinking. He put lots of emphasis on the stride length always being uniform, on a horse of any size getting used to the 12' distance, because that is what course designers use etc etc.
Sooo... I was taught that you alter the distances slightly at home, and especially with a green/learning horse, according to size of fences and whether it's a spread to an upright or vice-versa. (e.g. slightly longer distance between the elements if it's a spread in, because horse will land further in from that.)
So, the distance between, say, a 3'3" parallel to an upright would be longer than if it was the other way around.
And, at home, the distance I'd build between a double at 3'" would be shorter than between the same fences put up to, say, 4'3".
BUT
I got the impression from Tim that he would probably (and unfortunately we weren't allowed to shout out questions, or I'd have asked for clarification) have kept the distances the same all the time, so the horse's stride stayed uniform, and when the fences got bigger, it would have just been a bit closer and made more effort...
but, if the distances are therefore long with smaller fences, isn't this teaching a young horse to take off from further away and to have a flatter trajectory?
So:
Do you do a set distance at home, always, or do you vary it according to size of fences, or what type of fences they are?
Please help clear my confusion! Thankyou.

I do a lot of grid work at home and I have been told to shorten my distances to encourage the horse to use his shoulders more. So I make my doubles on seven of my strides i.e instead of 24ft its probably nearer 20 ft or maybe even less. This works fine and the horse is basculing away quite happily at home. But then when you get to a competition its a total nightmare as you really have to push on to make the distance up.

I can clearly remember a day about five years ago when Giovanni Losito who is a Median Course Builder appointed by the BSJA (or BS as it is now known) built a discovery track outdoors at Solihull. It was an upright (planks if I remember) to a two non jumping stride double (the first part was an oxer). It was slightly down hill. You could put in two really long strides from the planks to the first part of the double or three short strides. It was down hill so the distance was catching everybody out. It was a really unique combination. It caught loads of people out. I first attempted it in the British Novice and put in two long strides and in the Discovery put in three really short strides and had the oxer down both times! It was very clever. My other half works for Solihull Riding Club as a groundsman and he is responsible on ocassions for building sj tracks for unaffiliated shows and he has taught me quite a bit about how to build tracks, it is amazing how much hard work and thought goes into designing a course. He spends hours sat at his computer working out new courses and distances, optimum times, etc. The coursebuilders use standard distances, ie for a horse or for a pony, and standard times i.e 325 or 350mpm when indoors, but its when jumps are off corners, or on slopes, etc that the distances might change, and this is when it really pays to know your striding and that of your horse. This is when a clever course builder comes into his or her own. Fascinating stuff.

 

[kerilli]

Interesting post. Just to throw one more variable into the mix, sometimes build distance relates to technique training too -- by way of eg, as a pre-comp warm up to get up in the air properly, jumping through a 2 stride double which is on 11 (RT 12) with square gappy parallels. Horse not allowed to waiver & find more space, you just all work that bit harder & encourages sharp front ends, which I like XC

Yes, exactly, this is the sort of thing I do, vary the distances to develop adjustability etc etc.
I think maybe he must have simplified it for the audience.

KatB wrote:
"Right, I am going to symplify and write my thought process I said they are always BASED on an 8yard distance. Therefore, a one stride distance is only ever going to be out by a yard one way or another."

Umm, okay, but does that therefore mean that you're saying a 1-stride distance could be anything between 7 and 9 yards? Because I don't think I've EVER seen a 9 yard distance for 1 stride in SJ. I think 8 yards is the maximum (okay, i've never walked a really seriously huge SJ track though.)

 

[KatB]

I'm not going to get pedantic over the distances, as I don't think they are relevant to what I was saying in regards to training around the 12ft stride, which is what the original question was

BUT I have come across a 8.5yrd 1 stride distance which for arguements sake is within 1yrd either way

 

[kerilli]

Okay, fair enough.

 

[Saratoga]

A 9yd single stride double would be pretty dangerous IMO.

Every single horse is different, so although yes in principal all horses should have a 12ft stride, the reality is most don't. They either have shorter strides that need pushing on, or big ground covering strides that need shortening.

I think the 12ft stride comes as a uniform length that builders work to, to accomodate all types of horses? It is then our job as riders to be able to adjust the stride accordingly, not only to reach the ideal 12ft in length, but also to shorten or lengthen it when jumping half strides/differing distances.

 

[ArcticFox]

In the past when I competed BSJA, I walked all related distances, doubles/trebles/anything up to 6 strides with 2 of my strides of landing and 2 for take off & 4 strides to one horse stride.

I have seen course builders build related distances over 3 strides in length and put in a half stride, giving the rider more work to do between fences. It is a good rider who can land from a fence, make a single adjustment and ride the next fence.

Related distances are built to be ridden accurately, if you get deep into the first fence, regardless of it being a spread or upright, the horse will land short and may need to be pushed on to get the stride or held back to get another stride in. If you see a long stride then you will land further so will need to ride the line differently.

I haven't seen many one striding doubles be more than my 8 human strides and if i have they are at riding club where the double is designed for ponies to put two in and big horses one. I personally don't like those doubles as I think it asks for the horse to put a 'little one' in.

At home I school over 8 or 12 human striding doubles, if I am teaching a young horse to make distances, I will jump them over a shorter one - say a cross pole in with 6 human strides to a spread out - I am likely to be trotting into this fence though. Once in canter it would be hard to get a good one stride in without lengthening the double.

 

[mystiandsunny]

I've seen many demos by many different SJers, all who advocated training for the 12ft stride at home, then adding in adjustability once their canter was automatically that length. It must work!

 

[kerilli]

I've seen many demos by many different SJers, all who advocated training for the 12ft stride at home, then adding in adjustability once their canter was automatically that length. It must work!

I think this is it in a nutshell, yes. Thankyou.

 

[Gamebird]

A few points (in no particular order):
- I once mentioned in discussion with a BSJA course builder a distance built on a 'half stride'. He said in no uncertain terms that they didn't use half strides - never ever at the lower levels and very, very rarely at the top end.
- I can't remember the last time I walked a lower level BE/BSJA track and found the distance in a double to be anything other than the bog-standard 8/11 human strides.
- When you are jumping 1.50 tracks are doubles still built on 8 yards? I have never worked out how that works as surely a horse must land further in over a fence of the height or the parabola of the jump would have to be virtually vertical.
- I was jumping a 3 stride distance last night on 14.5-ish yards. It absolutely amazed me how much (from the same canter every time) the jump in influenced the distance. Get deep to the first part and I had to really push for the three strides, stand off the first part and I had to sit up and really hold so as not to get 2 strides. Same horse, same canter but a world of difference to the distance.
- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?

 

[AutumnRose]

A few points (in no particular order):

- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?

I'm not sure but at keysoe the intro double was an upright in and oxer out, which i didn't think was allowed. First time i've seen that, usually up to PN its oxer to upright or two uprights (my personal fave )

 

[kerilli]

A few points (in no particular order):
- When you are jumping 1.50 tracks are doubles still built on 8 yards? I have never worked out how that works as surely a horse must land further in over a fence of the height or the parabola of the jump would have to be virtually vertical.
- I was jumping a 3 stride distance last night on 14.5-ish yards. It absolutely amazed me how much (from the same canter every time) the jump in influenced the distance. Get deep to the first part and I had to really push for the three strides, stand off the first part and I had to sit up and really hold so as not to get 2 strides. Same horse, same canter but a world of difference to the distance.
- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?

That's exactly what I'm wondering about the distances between huge fences. Maybe the parabola really is that steep.
Yes, agreed about the difference to the distance depending on the jump in. At the Safety Meeting thing at Hartpury this Spring, one thing the trainers were very hot on was that when the distance in the middle was long or short, they wanted the riders to make the alteration in the middle, not 'cheat' by doing the adjustment before the first part.
But, when I've seen demos where they've gone down a distance on, say, 5 strides, then 6, then 7, then up to say 11 (Geoff Billington) or down to 3 (Ian Stark), they've done a lot of the adjustment on the approach to the first fence... *confused*
I think the reasoning behind that rule is that an upright is fairly jumpable from just about anywhere, whereas with a spread you risk dropping the poor horse on the back bar if the rider (or horse) gets it very wrong.
the new quick-drop safety cups are a godsend for the back bar of spreads imho, seen a lot of nasty moments averted because the pole could instantly drop out of the way.

 

[AutumnRose]

Thats a very interesting point re altering distances.

I think/have been taught that if you plan to ride on a certain distance, ie if it is an ambiguous distance (and for this needs to be 4 stride distances upwards i think) then the alteration should come before the fence as described. Or perhaps this is just a technique for teaching adjustment in the canter, as opposed to being how you ride in the ring??
BUT horses (and rider) also must learn to adjust quickly to the jump you get in. For example if you get in close to first part you must immediately act to make up the distance in the middle. This is certainly how i have been taught to ride (and i realise this is at a very low level ) in that your canter should be basically standard but have adjustment ready for as and when you need it.

 

[Navalgem]

A few points (in no particular order):

- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?

It used to be done at lower level BS but they changed it so it can be any way round now. I think the thinking is it's easier to get out over an upright than an oxer if you've had a problem.

 

[Baydale]

Yes, agreed about the difference to the distance depending on the jump in. At the Safety Meeting thing at Hartpury this Spring, one thing the trainers were very hot on was that when the distance in the middle was long or short, they wanted the riders to make the alteration in the middle, not 'cheat' by doing the adjustment before the first part.
But, when I've seen demos where they've gone down a distance on, say, 5 strides, then 6, then 7, then up to say 11 (Geoff Billington) or down to 3 (Ian Stark), they've done a lot of the adjustment on the approach to the first fence... *confused*

I don't understand this, K. Do you mean that they would expect the horse to come in in exactly the same canter whether they were going to make a distance inbetween 4 or 6 strides?