Distances in combinations, let's get technical...

Gamebird said:
A few points (in no particular order):
- I once mentioned in discussion with a BSJA course builder a distance built on a 'half stride'. He said in no uncertain terms that they didn't use half strides - never ever at the lower levels and very, very rarely at the top end.
- I can't remember the last time I walked a lower level BE/BSJA track and found the distance in a double to be anything other than the bog-standard 8/11 human strides.
- When you are jumping 1.50 tracks are doubles still built on 8 yards? I have never worked out how that works as surely a horse must land further in over a fence of the height or the parabola of the jump would have to be virtually vertical.
- I was jumping a 3 stride distance last night on 14.5-ish yards. It absolutely amazed me how much (from the same canter every time) the jump in influenced the distance. Get deep to the first part and I had to really push for the three strides, stand off the first part and I had to sit up and really hold so as not to get 2 strides. Same horse, same canter but a world of difference to the distance.
- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?
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Just a couple of observations - I went to Arena UK on Saturday night to watch the Grand Prix. Being the sad individual that I am, I carefully watched the riders walking the course (all the top names - Whitakers of all ages, Will Funnell, Tim Stockdale, Di Lampard, etc, etc) and without fail they walked one stride distances on 8 human strides and 2 stride distances on 12 human strides, so unless their legs are different to mine, I would say that was 8 and 12 yards (as I would expect). There was an interesting distance (a skinny stile to a decent oxer) which was 3 1/2 horse strides - some took it on 3 and some on 4. There was also a double of oxers on a good 4 strides from an upright - Scott Brash commented how long this was during an interview before the class started - many struggled to make this distance.

At the level I jump at (up to Newcomers currently) I very rarely find distances to be wrong - yes sometimes very slightly long or short - but I'm referring to inches not feet. Perhaps I'm just lucky with local course builders?

With regard to K's comment about adjusting distances mid-combination - I'm with Baydale, I just don't understand. Surely the canter has to be adjusted before the first jump? In the above scenario (long 4 strides) the riders could push after the upright but they wouldn't have been able to do this in the middle of a double/treble.
 
Baydale said:
I don't understand this, K. Do you mean that they would expect the horse to come in in exactly the same canter whether they were going to make a distance inbetween 4 or 6 strides? :confused:
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Yes, it was the last session, the one with Laura Collett in. They were doing a distance on say 5 strides and then doing it on 6. The (pure sj) trainers were adamant that they had to approach the first one in the same canter, and do all the reaction/adjustment the moment they landed over it. (Made it a lot more difficult).
 
Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?
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Because if you get it wrong it is easier to get out of trouble over a vertical than a double. My Friend who is a coursebuilder at HOYs always builds her unaff tracks with a Double in as she says it is fairer on ponies. She also buiilds the distances on a horse stride as ponies are smarter than horses and cope better with a not perfect for them distance.
 
I just stride out 8 strides as it fits D perfectly and leave it at that, I know he is capable of going long or short providing I ask for it and I would rather keep him happy and confident at home rather than encouraging him flat etc.
 
Gamebird said:
A few points (in no particular order):
- Does anyone know what the thinking is behind the rule that ensures that lower level BE doubles are oxer in/vertical out?
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I don't think there is a rule to say this. I was discussing exactly this with a coursebuilder recently at BE and the course was a BE100. We talked about the merits of oxer in, upright out, vs upright in and oxer out (I prefer the latter). He told me that the PC has now introduced a rule where a double HAS to be oxer in, upright out, but not BE. And in fact the course I then jumped the following day (BE100) was upright in and oxer out - we made a very good job of it :)

kerilli said:
But, when I've seen demos where they've gone down a distance on, say, 5 strides, then 6, then 7, then up to say 11 (Geoff Billington) or down to 3 (Ian Stark), they've done a lot of the adjustment on the approach to the first fence... *confused*
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I have never adjusted as much as that (as I am clearly not a SJ God) but I must admit that when I do practise varying from 4 to 5 to 6 strides between a set distance, I do adjust the canter on the way in and not just between the fences. Am I cheating then?!
 
Iirc they said "don't risk having the first fence of the related distance down (because you've come in stronger, to make a forward distance, or because you've come in holding, because of a tight distance), jump that one well from your usual sj canter and a good normal spot, and then adjust to get the stride you want to the second fence."
hope that makes a bit more sense.
Jul, i've always cheated too, fwiw... ;) ;)
 
Just my 2 cents (but probably somewhat worthless!):

Our arena is very small, and a lot of people say our combinations do not ride easily. We have (atm) a 1-stride and a 3-stride, but obviously this changes. At no point do we ever have more than 3 strides from the edge of the arena to the first element, and quite often only 2 so it's difficult to adjust on approach, and they are mostly coming off quite tight turns. Sometimes the combinations are built short because we have a lot of dealing ex-racers coming in, and to start with it helps them, because they seem to have a tendency to want to get long so it means if they do screw up they can just canter out without much of a problem.

I never really noticed, because I started jumping there, but what I have noticed is how we never really struggle with doubles at shows. I don't live in the UK, and people here are a lot less into making it "easy" at lower levels I've found. My ex-racer is only jumping what'd be..Discovery I think? at the moment, but even in the couple of 80cm classes we did early this year, there were always tricky distances.

In his first 80cm show, there was a related distance. Most took it as 7, one GP rider took it as 8, I rode it as 6. It walked as a short 7/long 6. Same with the doubles. One walked half a stride out, and the same in the working hunter class I did on a different horse. People obviously went for the fewer strides in working hunter, but the SJ we had some 2 strides and some 1 strides. There was a double there that walked fine though, and everybody took it on 2 strides.

I would think though, if you work off a standard size and can lengthen/shorten by one stride then you're fine, but I wouldn't think it'd hurt to practice sometimes with them slightly shortened or lengthened and see how it comes out.
 
At an event last weekend the distance from the double to the set of planks was 22yds. Out of interest would people call that a half stride or not?
 
Saratoga said:
At an event last weekend the distance from the double to the set of planks was 22yds. Out of interest would people call that a half stride or not?
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Well, I would, yes.
Or a pretty/very short 5 strides, or 4 strides if you are really moving forward on a big-striding horse, which would be very brave to do to a set of planks... ;) ;)

How did it ride? Did lots of horses have the planks? I bet not many tried to do it on 4...
 
LOTS of horses had the planks, and i saw it fall lots with people going on both 4 and 5. 5 tended to put the horse right underneath it and saw a few very awkward jumps, even if they left it up!

Some people came into/out of the double strongly to get the 4, but then sacrificied the upright out of the double or kicked the planks out on a flyer.

Was interesting to watch/ride....as usually in my experience there isn't such a half stride built.
 
Saratoga said:
At an event last weekend the distance from the double to the set of planks was 22yds. Out of interest would people call that a half stride or not?
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Was it on a dead straight line? If so then I'd probably have ridden it on 5, dependent on the going and whether it was uphill/downhill approach, also dependent on what the "out" part of the double was. If it wasn't you could have made some room by making your curving line to it go further out or in to make it 4 or 5. I don't like calling it a "half stride", it's too black and white for me, but then I suppose calling it "short" or "long" related distance is probably equally black and white for some people.;)

Another thought, are we trying to make our show-jumping courses idiot-proof so we can just get the same canter and go round as if we're on rails with no need for adjustment? At what point does one engage one's brain and put a bit more thought into how it walks and what suits that horse, in readiness for progression up the levels - even if that's from Intro to BE100?

That's not pointed at you btw, Saratoga, it's just a thought, especially with cross country safety being such a big issue. Might be an idea to engage our brains and ride in an educated manner show-jumping before we go cross country? :)
 
Just to add that I always think to myself "it's all there to be jumped", both sj and xc. If the course builders know their job and you're up for the challenge, you've just got to do what you can - it's the same for everyone. If you think a fence is unreasonable xc then you have a Rider Rep to talk to.
 
K yes BE Novice.

Baydale, yes on a totally straight line, double was parallel in to upright out (standard 8yds) straight line 22yds to planks. I totally agree with you regarding the distances though! i don't think it was too much of an ask at Novice level, it really made people think, and have to use their brain rather than just jump in and sit there. It also made the horses think, especially mine who jumped in and opened his stride up like he normally does down a related, it took some work to get him back to get the 5 but was a good education for him as he needs to learn to sit and wait when i ask. It would have done us no good if i had kicked for 4, even though he would have found it easier to go on a flyer it wouldn't be a good thing to let him do, and at N level it should be all about the education i think.
 
Haven't read all the replies but since training with Amanda have had to adopt her mantra that I'm now not allowed to walk distances or be told if they are long/short as most of the time eventing you can't get to walk the course anyway! So we just work on riding 'in the moment' jump in, see how you land check or leg on accordingly..... It works for us, and has stopped me getting hung up on measuring stuff, and worrying about missing course walks.

Weirdly Soap is fab in combos they steady him up and I leave him to figure it out, we hardly ever have a problem it's single fences that I fluff up at! :(
 
I suppose the problem with not knowing if a distance is long or short is that when you jump in you will have a stride or so where you do nothing while you assess the distance, then have to move/shorten on the last few strides. The important thing (and the hardest thing i think) is making all your strides the same, so if the distance is short the first stride upon landing needs to be shortened.
 
Saratoga said:
I suppose the problem with not knowing if a distance is long or short is that when you jump in you will have a stride or so where you do nothing while you assess the distance, then have to move/shorten on the last few strides. The important thing (and the hardest thing i think) is making all your strides the same, so if the distance is short the first stride upon landing needs to be shortened.
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It's not so much up to me as him! We do a fair bit on the buckle end single fences and grids to get him to work it out and for me to not interfere!!!

Also I am reliably told if the canter is good then I will only ever be half a stride long or short to anything.....and from that good canter half a stride should be easy to overcome


That's the theory anyway......
 
hmm, i totally agree with letting him think for himself, and learning to cope with whatever's there, etc etc, those are such good training mantras...
BUT
half a stride is 2 yards, and if you're, say, 2 yards off a good take-off spot, that means you're 8'-9' off the fence, which is quite a lot from a sj canter (less so from a good xc gallop of course!)... or otherwise you're a yard under it. hmmm. not so sure about that.
 
kerilli said:
BUT
half a stride is 2 yards, and if you're, say, 2 yards off a good take-off spot, that means you're 8'-9' off the fence, which is quite a lot from a sj canter (less so from a good xc gallop of course!)... or otherwise you're a yard under it. hmmm. not so sure about that.
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Agree...it's the difference between jumping an 8yd double on one stride (standard, most horses happily do it comfortably) and a 10yd double on one stride (many if not most horses would struggle badly to jump through a 10yd double on one stride).

Another musing......i may be waffling now so please shoot me.....but i think horses would cope better with a 6yd double (being a half stride too short) than a 10yd double (being half a stride too long)....does that mean that horses naturally find it easier to shorten than lengthen?
 
Interesting debate. I struggle to engage my brain quick enough sjing but I think one of the issues is that I am not disciplined enough walking courses. I have been far to laxidasical about it with my last horse and I always preferred to go on a longer stride as I was not confident enough to make a decision or it was easier to kick. I completely disagree with Chloes method as it bites you on the arse when you move up the levels. At intro and PN you can get away with these methods but at novice you cannot. I now have a very green horse with an enormous stride and he will be drilled in canter before we start sjing courses as he needs to learn to shorten and I need to be disciplined!
 
kerilli said:
hmm, i totally agree with letting him think for himself, and learning to cope with whatever's there, etc etc, those are such good training mantras...
BUT
half a stride is 2 yards, and if you're, say, 2 yards off a good take-off spot, that means you're 8'-9' off the fence, which is quite a lot from a sj canter (less so from a good xc gallop of course!)... or otherwise you're a yard under it. hmmm. not so sure about that.
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Maybe she doesn't mean exactly half a stride as measured, I'm not sure, maybe she just meant you could only be a bit too close or a bit too long but nothing unjumpable from with the right canter.....

I am very rubbish at SJing but my instructor teaches Jessica Mendoza who is the opposite of rubbish so I'm inclined to do as I am told for now ;) Also take into account she is teaching me for my level so that advice might not translate as courses get bigger etc....
 
Saratoga said:
Another musing......i may be waffling now so please shoot me.....but i think horses would cope better with a 6yd double (being a half stride too short) than a 10yd double (being half a stride too long)....does that mean that horses naturally find it easier to shorten than lengthen?
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Hmm, yes, I think you're right, because it's obvious quicker to them that they have to do something fast, rather than taking a normal stride and then thinking "oh **** no room for another one."

there was a very very short 1-stride double at Chepstow horse trials novice years ago. Iirc it walked barely 7 yards and was full-up 3'7". I got my grey really anchored, popped in, and... she bounced out clean as anything over the second part. I had suspected she might (she thought she was Mrs Murphy as a novice) so managed to chuck the reins at her. my sj trainer was Seriously Unamused even though we went clear... ;) ;)

Chloe, that makes more sense... I agree, from the right bouncy positive balanced canter, a bit of a long distance or a bit of a short distance is no big deal at all to a horse.
 
yes on a totally straight line said:
I would have jumped the double but over the second part of the double I would just keep my shoulders up a bit to prepare for the landing, (not sit down though as this might cause my horse to have the second part of the double down) once landed I would go on 5 strides, making sure my first two following the double were short allowing me to get the canter ride to ride the next three smoothly to allow the horse to jump the planks.

If you watch the pro's on the demos where they go on 3 - 11 strides down a line, they will always adjust the canter before the fence, it might not look obvious but they might jump open the horse a little on the way in, just so that they are making a bit more ground - not much but enough that when they land they can push on for the required strides, if they are going for a short one, they will just sit up a bit more over the first, and maybe half halt on the corner before the related line.

cxx
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