Divorce / legal reasons - what are my horses "worth" as assets

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Arkmiido

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These are NOT for sale, but I have to put a value on my "assets" which only really consist of my neds and tack... Obviously as they are assets, I need low end of market value - so what would be realistic for this lot?
1) 8yo 16hh ISH grey/appaloosa mare, grandsire was Cruising. Windsucks badly, 1cm of top teeth left! Doesn't do it in her electric paddock, stable has to be electrified around walls. Proven broodmare, bred a lovely foal this year. Backed this winter, hacks and schools lightly, great in traffic, but only really a happy hack at present. Huge loose jump, very genuine horse, loads, travels, good for farrier etc. Injured her shoulder and not totally level in front, especially with lateral work. Paid £450 for her, unbacked.
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2) Grey/appaloosa filly by Belgian Warmblood (Parco / Darco) out of above mare. To make 16.2+. AES reg'd, well handled, halter broken.
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3) 3 yo bay Hanoverian (Eugano) x ISH mare, homebred, stud fee was £350, currently stands at 15.1hh. Currently being backed by me - long-lines in full tack and has been sat on. Big jump, nice paces, very sweet and genuine.

4) 6 shetland ponies, not registered. All vaccinated, all broken to ride.
-2 drive and have done driving trials, go single, pair, tandem
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-1 is permanently lame and drags a leg. (The bay on the left of the picture..)
1 is in the process of being started but is a bit of a baggage.
2 shetland fillies.


So, my solicitor wants a value for the whole lot. Any ideas?
 
if you want the low level of what they are worth why not give the price of how much you paid for them, plus or minus a bit not sure of price i'd give them
 
Im afraid I played dirty on this one... my vet kindly wrote a statement saying my gelding was meat value only due to his temperament, and my mare same, due to arthritis (very slight) so... if you can do anything similar.... :-( I was playing dirty as my ex had actually tried to sell them for meat anyway, thank god for passports. in the end I sold them to my dad for beer money.... reminds me I really need to buy my lad back!
 
What about £5,000 for the lot? It would be up to him to challenge it if he disagreed, and in today's tough market, if you had to sell the lot tomorrow you wouldn't even get that much if you had to put them through a sale. At the moment People are trying to offload their stock/returning things they've had on loan to the owners, so they won't have to pay outrageous prices for hay/feed this winter.
 
If he is insisting on valuing them as assets you must also remember that if they are lame/ unsound they must be added to the negative side of the balance. My ex tried to claim that my old horse was worth £3600. he was already written off with coffin joint lameness in both feet so instead of an asset we worked out that he was actually a financial burden costing me at least £50 per week and at 14 years old likely to live for at least another 10 years - therefore £26k.

Your lame unsound animals are currently worth nothing - you will have to pay a fortune out to keep them over winter - call his bluff. My solicitor got the agreement to take the horses out of the equation and the dogs.

The other thing is who is down as the owner and were any bought for you as gifts? gifts are taken out of assets.
 
Hi, if your wanting the least value for them, something for you to remember lame horses are unsellable, also once theyve had medications eg. bute, danilon ect. they cannot be used for meat either. So they wouldnt have a value!!! I expect they vet would back you up on this.
 
Sympathies for having to go through this. Presumably this is for form E? You will want to go as low a value as looks reasonable. Purchase price is good evidence of value for ones that can technically be sold ie nothing wrong with them. For all the others, a vet's letter explaining what is wrong with them and that in his / her opinion they have no value is worthwhile getting. It cost me a small amount of money for the vet to write this for one of mine when I got divorced but worth it. NB don't forget the add the reasonable costs of keeping them in the outgoings section too. PS I hope you have a happy ending. My old advanced eventer boy worth zero eventually came sound and I gave him to my lovely dressage trainer who now competes him up to advanced medium and treats him like a diva. Good luck.
 
zoelouisem said:
Hi, if your wanting the least value for them, something for you to remember lame horses are unsellable, also once theyve had medications eg. bute, danilon ect. they cannot be used for meat either. So they wouldnt have a value!!! I expect they vet would back you up on this.
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You guys are very clever!!! Yes, all of mine have had treatment with various things (such as Deosect, or bute) so have had that section signed in their passports.. Can certainly get my vet to attest to their uselessness!! Going back, I think my mum actually bought all the horses/ponies I actually paid money for, and paid the stud fees both times - I always had the intention of paying her back but never did (that's what parents are for!!) but the passports are all in my name.. I have a habit of collecting fairly useless, but lovable, horses.. The idea that he might be able to force me to sell them is killing me, I nearly passed out when the solicitor mentioned it, and said I had to put a value on them for the court financial disclosure.
I don't think I'll get away with claiming that my 3yo is worth nothing though - my ex knew I was offered a fair bit for her last year as a 2 year old (3.5k) and he tried to make me sell her then, while we were still together. However, she snapped the end off her tail last week, and I'm sure its messed her back up. With a bit of luck anyway!! She's insured for £800 - think I could get away with that value? Gey mare also insured for £800, because that's the lowest NFU allows..
Now, how to maim my grey foal... or sell her to my neighbour for £50 :-)
Shetlands.. you probably can't give them away? Especially ones with the behavioral problems that mine have! Totally un-catchable, can't get near them (unless you are me.... its also a good theft deterrent!)
 
In this market, when people are giving horses away, could you not 'sell' them for a very, very low realistic figure, say £100 each, with tack thrown in to a good friend or relative?
 
Bosworth said:
If he is insisting on valuing them as assets you must also remember that if they are lame/ unsound they must be added to the negative side of the balance. My ex tried to claim that my old horse was worth £3600. he was already written off with coffin joint lameness in both feet so instead of an asset we worked out that he was actually a financial burden costing me at least £50 per week and at 14 years old likely to live for at least another 10 years - therefore £26k.
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Hadn't thought of this! Going through very similar, and this is one that I will remember to pass on, thank you!
 
crockshard said:
Going back, I think my mum actually bought all the horses/ponies I actually paid money for, and paid the stud fees both times - I always had the intention of paying her back but never did (that's what parents are for!!) but the passports are all in my name..
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In that case your mother could actually put a claim against the horses which would save you a whole load of bother. The horses therefore have a debt against their value which would lower it considerably. Also if you mother has paid for the stud fees for your foal then technically you are unable to sell that foal with out your mothers permission therefore you are (very happily) "stuck" with the foal until such time that you pay her back. Add some interest on there as well and I am sure you can get your stake in your foal to £0!

Thankfully we are in a recession so I think that you can automatically knock off a shed load off of all their values. The shetlands you can knock down to at least £25 because of the poor market! Your youngster is clearly injured (well done that pony!) and if you ex complains about the low valuation again you can come back that actually the market in horse sales has crashed... Then gag and bribe the person who offered you the money for her last year to shut up! ;)
 
The injured horses are not worth a thing only meat value which is not alot! The shetlands wish him all the luck to try and sell them for lots of money, so think they are pretty safe. The filly with a broken tail, well if you sold you would have to declare this and her value would decrease greatly. Get your vet to 'vet' them and point out all there problems, if quality youngsters are selling for 2k then yours, unfortunatly/fortunatly would be classed as useless.
My friend had a similar thing, but all her horses where worth alot, when she realised her and her OH were entering rocky ground she 'sold' all her 3 event and dressage horses to her mum for £300 each, in 6 months when he fillied for divorce there was nothing her could do as she was just loaning them from her mum with a signed loan contract and everything, they have stayed in her mum's name incase he trys to detest anything in the future!
 
I'm afraid legally I wouldn't have a clue.

But I just wanted to extend my sympathies to all of you going through what must be an incredibly hard and distressing time. Hugs.
 
Archiesmummy said:
In this market, when people are giving horses away, could you not 'sell' them for a very, very low realistic figure, say £100 each, with tack thrown in to a good friend or relative?
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AAAARRGGGHHH just typed a huge reply and got a broken link error :mad::mad:

to summarise- DO NOT TAKE THE ABOVE ADVICE PLEASE!!

if you sell your horses below a "reasonable" market value then the courts will value the horses base on info from your OH. The best way is to sign them out of the food chain due to medication and get the vet plus someone like a dealer/BHS instructor to give a "market value" that makes it just about imposssible for your OH to contest. Definately get your mum to contest ownership of the ones she can prove she put money into. your youngster is significantly devalued by the tail damage (not longterm though ;) )

i have way to much experience of the horrible situation you are in, you have my number if you want to chat x
 
York Horse Sales publish results of past sales and this would be considered a fair guide to market value for the sound animals.
Lame animals, unless they can go for meat where their value can be calculated (less transport of course), have no sale value.

It is not unknown for horses to have to go to auction in this situation. If this happens chose a better end, catalogued, sale and be prepared for your Mum to buy back in.
 
JenTaz said:
if you want the low level of what they are worth why not give the price of how much you paid for them, plus or minus a bit not sure of price i'd give them
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Id go with this.
What a terrible situation.

regardless of what has happen you obviously where in love at some point so why do things have to turn so nasty?
Your ex mush realize you love them so why would he want to make a bad situation worse?

It makes you realize even someone you thought you knew can turn surprise you, in a good or bad way.
 
I would say £1000-£1500 for each of the horses given thier issues, ages and level of training etc and todays market. the shetlands i would say £200? each or poss the ones which are lame etc are meat value only. However i would say much more importantly i think legally you dont own them anyway for him to have a right to half thier value. If you mum brought them or paid stud fee then she owns them irrespective of whose name is on the passport.
 
Be realistic in your values and don't try and "sell" horses or hide ownerships etc... the courts look very crossly at dodgy dealings to try and beat the system.... You may find your values rejected or yourself with a large bill...you could even find yourself charged with attempting to obtain financial benefit by deception. Be Honest.
 
Thank you for all your replies - its given me loads of ideas. First and foremost, that mum actually ( and honestly, thinking about it!!) owns all of them. She paid for the grey mare. She can even find the cheque stub to prove it, although I don't have a receipt, just her passport. My vet will attest to the fact that she hasn't not increased in value as she injured her shoulder after I bought her, and although she bred a lovely foal, she had colic and mastitis and various other problems throughout pregnancy that he made me promise to never breed from her again, after the 3rd midnight visit!!

The foal was a sticking point I thought, but mum paid the stud fee, and foal was out of a mare she owned - see above... Excellent, so no worries there :)
The bay 3 yo, Kim - Mum actually did own the mare she was bred from, Black Ice, who was originally bought for my sister but I started riding her when it transpired she had DJD both hocks (and later KS) and she became "my horse" - but the passport and ownership stayed in mum's name. She was pts last summer, so the idea of selling the only thing I have left from my beautiful mare is just too awful to contemplate. Likewise, she paid the stud fee. So although passport in my name as the keeper, Mum owns Kim legally? None of the horses/ponies are in his name - they are all in my name.
Shetlands: actually the 2 that were bought, Mum paid for, along with a llama. I doubt the 2 fillies have any value apart from cute factor!

I don't think he is planning on taking them from me or forcing me to sell them - I think his focus is on the house, but for the Form E, I have to disclose my assets, and I thought these included my horses etc. In hindsight mum actually bought all their tack too, including carriages, harness etc. Now has never been a better time to feel like a totally spoilt brat.:p:p:p
I won't mention the fact that I may or may not have paid her back - or whether she has written off such debts - because on paper I'm quite happy for the horses to all remain "hers". Don't know if it then looks a little crazy that I spend 90% of my income (outgoings!!) on supporting my mother's collection of horses, plus riding and driving lessons, plus competition fees... I get the feeling it won't take much for the judge to work out why the marriage failed :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm still reeling from some of the stories about terrible things that have happened to people with divorce settlements - it really is my biggest nightmare, and I hope it will never come to that. I feel very lucky to know that she would buy them back from auction for me though - if it ever came to that.

That's why I want to make them an unattractive as possible as "assets" to be sold, and even better if they aren't even mine.
It was bad enough when he drove the lorry too fast or complained about me never being home before 9pm, or made me take off my yard clothes outside... Even the idea of selling my babies is killing me, especially the youngsters I bred myself.
 
crockshard said:
Going back, I think my mum actually bought all the horses/ponies I actually paid money for, and paid the stud fees both times - I always had the intention of paying her back but never did (that's what parents are for!!) but the passports are all in my name..
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If your mother bought them, they're hers - passports 'belong' to the horse - they are NOT a proof of ownership!

Put the minimum value (less than meat money as they can't be sold for meat!) on anything that is unsound - and find lots of ads for CHEAP youngsters to support the claim that the bottom has fallen out of the market and there are no buyers for them!

Let him try to prove you wrong! I'm actually not sure you can be forced to sell your horses as 'communal assets' - did he help pay for their keep?? Did he help look after them?? Did he contribute to their purchase??
 
JanetGeorge said:
If your mother bought them, they're hers - passports 'belong' to the horse - they are NOT a proof of ownership!

Let him try to prove you wrong! I'm actually not sure you can be forced to sell your horses as 'communal assets' - did he help pay for their keep?? Did he help look after them?? Did he contribute to their purchase??
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No, he made no contribution, other than driving the lorry sometimes to events. But he paid no money towards them, either day to day keep or purchase price. He would turn them out for me though in the odd instance if I was working really early and the weather was too foul for them to want to go out at 5am. But I would later discover this would be at 11am, not the agreed 8am - or that he wouldn't have fed them when he promised he had, so I'm not sure this counts as helping to look after them!!
 
We have 30 odd horses between me and hubby..... he loudly says to myself and other people that they are MY horses..... and that he is just the poor bugger who has to feed and look after them.....

However, IF we ever split, the only fair thing to do would be for me to pay him out half the market value of them if I wanted to keep the lot......

After all, its HIS money (ok, so our money that comes in is "OUR" money) that has gone into them, and HIS work and effort getting all the fencing and everything done around here, HE is the one who has done a LOT of work and does MOST of the stuff with our horses because I am not up to it health wise.......

He is the one who has sacrificed everything that HE has wanted to give ME my horses...... (YES I am VERY spoilt, and I love him dearly for it all......)

Crud, thinking about it, its a whole lot of money involved..... so best be nice to him so he doesnt tell me to sod off or decide to pack up and leave himself!!!! lol......

Seriously though, even though you may put 90% of your wage into the horses, and the money may not come out of HIS pocket directly to pay for them - it comes out of your JOINT pocket, as his wage makes up everything else that yours is no longer available for as it goes to the horses.

And just because your mum paid for the horses, doesnt necessarily mean they are your mothers..... if they are yours, they are yours..... regardless of mum purchasing them - if you are the one doing everything with them and paying for all their upkeep - basically mum has gifted them to you, you are responsible for them, so technically they are YOUR asset, which becomes a joint asset!

Good luck with it all..... would be a bugger of a situation to be in!
 
Not actually correct about the gift thing, if your mum has gifted them to you then they are yours - they are not a joint asset. Gifts are not counted as an asset to sell. So for example my parents gave ME a piano when we got married. That was MY piano not a joint one so it was not included on the form. My engagement ring was a gift to ME so again not on the form. They were not joint , they were mine as gifts. Things we had each bought for the house were assets, wedding presents were assets, an antique table left to me in my grandmothers will was an asset as it was an inheritance not a gift. So you need to speak to your solicitor - your horses could be your mum's, they could be a gift from her to you or they could be a joint asset and your solicitor will advise. You must be seen to be acting legally otherwise the courts will take a dim view. Selling to your someone for a meagre amount is fraud and will be dealt with as such. So get your facts from your solicitor - not from us on the forum. Your solicitor will be the one to stand up for you in court and argue your case so he needs to be aware of the full situation. And your mother needs to be aware of her position - is she the legal owner or not.

You also need to bear in mind that although it is only your money that has paid forteh horses he can argue that the only reason that you were able to pay for the horses upkeep was because he paid all the household bills - in effect your personal upkeep. So although your money is sperate it really makes no difference.
 
My friend had to do this too!

Basically she got the local dealer in to 'price' all the horses up which were oaps anyway for the divorce settlement!

The vet also gave a valuation too.

Everyone just basically put 'meat value' on the horses so as far as the divorce went it was on her side!

good luck!
 
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